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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!)

 
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/21/2020 1:02:44 PM   
Destragon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

1) that when you look at the logs in the traffic sign popup there are much less entries for each hex and it is actually possible to better understand what is going on. all the overlap if you had many logistical assets was creating an incomprehensible (for me) number of overlaps and entries.

Do you mean specifically for logistics source tiles? What if we just build roads adjacent to logistics assets, instead of having them go directly through them, like I posted a picture of above?
Will it confuse the pull logistics when we do that? I haven't started a new game yet.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 421
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/21/2020 1:31:43 PM   
Journier

 

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anyone see a issue in latest beta 9 of minor and major worker strike credit costs disparity?

minor and major worker strikes in my game are having similar costs like 250 credits each. however when i make the payoff the major worker strike soaks 1500+ credits out of my treasury.

(in reply to Destragon)
Post #: 422
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/21/2020 2:10:55 PM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon
Will it confuse the pull logistics when we do that? I haven't started a new game yet.


Yes, because in that case this will play exactly same like pre-beta9 logistics. You will see in at long range in area where your capital LP flow is disappearing but game still try to use it instead of using "weak" LP from local Truck Station, resulting zero or almost zero actual supplies coming.

(in reply to Destragon)
Post #: 423
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/21/2020 3:07:51 PM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare


quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon
Will it confuse the pull logistics when we do that? I haven't started a new game yet.


Yes, because in that case this will play exactly same like pre-beta9 logistics. You will see in at long range in area where your capital LP flow is disappearing but game still try to use it instead of using "weak" LP from local Truck Station, resulting zero or almost zero actual supplies coming.



Keep in mind, all supplies to units originate from the SHQ. Underestimate the magnitude of that requirement at your peril.

For example, public food in zone Bravo moves to the SHQ in zone Alpha, then is delivered to the units in zones Alpha through Zulu.

Luckily, in the case of Food, I think the weight is 1.

Moving a tank from the SHQ to zone Detla, however, is a much larger job and impacts every hex on the path to the delivery point. A guess, but moving 100 tanks requires and consumes 1,000 LP on every hex in the path.

Your SHQ hex only has a maximum of 12 potential exits---6 for truck lines, 6 for rail lines. That is the reason I lobbied for separate traffic signals for each transport mode.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/21/2020 3:18:36 PM >


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Post #: 424
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/21/2020 3:47:05 PM   
Malevolence


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As an aside, you should be using rail lines between cities--particularly over long distances and through bad terrain.

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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/21/2020 7:32:08 PM   
Destragon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare
Yes, because in that case this will play exactly same like pre-beta9 logistics.

That's not really true. The tiles where you have your logistics assets like truck stations are the important thing for pull logistics and they are the main thing that is affected by this change, no matter if you have a bypass road or not. I just haven't been able to test it yet though.

(in reply to demiare)
Post #: 426
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/21/2020 8:23:23 PM   
Vhalor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Thanks for the feedback everybody.

For the moment I think cutting of the logistics for a truck/rail station when reaching another station is a good one.

The big argument for me is:
1) that when you look at the logs in the traffic sign popup there are much less entries for each hex and it is actually possible to better understand what is going on. all the overlap if you had many logistical assets was creating an incomprehensible (for me) number of overlaps and entries.
2) that when using only the pull systems there will be much less cases where an already depleting logistics stream (due to distance from source) is high-jacking the pull points in a certain direction.

The supply bases will still be useful on long trajectories and especially on the frontline.

I am not rushing this beta however. And will give it some more time for reflection.

best wishes,
Vic




Having played a bit with this latest logistics change, it just feels even worse than imagined and makes everything so unnecessarily messy now. The log screen was also rarely, if ever, needed for me before. Things have to go really wrong before you have to look at that. Which now may be the case more often...

Before there was one beautiful and simple rule. You have logistics problems? Construct more logistical assets! It was that simple. Sure, depending on other factors, the positive impact would vary, but that's rather straight forward and really easy to comprehend.

Not only is that no longer the case and you will have to do a lot more analyzing and micromanaging, if you want to optimize your logistics, but worst of all, one wrongly placed logistical asset can now easily cripple your entire logistical network. Logistics simply disappearing into thin air like that doesn't seem very comprehensible. If you expand your logistical capabilities, you do not expect your network to just collapse for no apparent reason instead. The entire system right now is complex enough already without such an arbitrary rule interfering with everything.

On top, there's now no longer even the option to just opt out of the pull system and its accompanying changes, as was the case before. Because as crazy as it may be, right now I'd ditch the entire pull system without hesitation to just go back to the original logistical system. It has its annoyances, but at least for me they are far more manageable compared to the current one. Strange times indeed, when you find yourself chanting: "Down with the pull system and may the 1.0 logistical system rise again!" Perhaps the push system was the one true system all along?!

To end on a more serious note, I really hope this change can be limited to just the pull system itself, perhaps it could even do alright in that case, or at least the option to just ignore the entire pull system, along with this latest change, is restored!

_____________________________

"Pull and obtain wisdom. Push and invite ruin." ― Cult of LIS

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 427
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/21/2020 8:45:27 PM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vhalor
Before there was one beautiful and simple rule. You have logistics problems? Construct more logistical assets!

Because as crazy as it may be, right now I'd ditch the entire pull system without hesitation to just go back to the original logistical system.


Irony that latest change changed almost NOTHING in logistic management ... except railroads are now mandatory as pushing LP from SHQ with trucks only will be too unstable past initial neighbor cities (well, and supply bases sometimes are mandatory too if you're fighting in middle of nowhere). No offense (seriously!), but all your frustration seems to be based on fact that you aren't playing in intended way.

So you were able to play in style "MOAR stations!" and it's even worked? O_O Then latest changes are indeed was really needed one. Hell, game have multiple viewmodes related to logistics - you almost completely ignored them and thought it was fine?

Before introduction of pull system you were forced to spend every damned turn fixing traffic signs if you're involved in any notable war. Amount of micro-management was too annoying - every mine you'd to build not on main road forced you to go into traffic signs screen again. Every damned upgrade to that mine! No way I want to see this nightmare again. How you could suggest it is beyond my understanding.

P.S. Also finally you MAY combine roads & rails without crazy shenanigans as finally local truck stations correctly push LP from railstops and no longer trying to drop this work on trucks coming from capital (yes, one hex gap in roads was almost mandatory sometimes if you don't want to see sudden bottlenecks as AI trying to use trucks more then trains).

< Message edited by demiare -- 7/21/2020 8:47:41 PM >

(in reply to Vhalor)
Post #: 428
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/21/2020 11:37:12 PM   
Destragon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vhalor

You have logistics problems? Construct more logistical assets! It was that simple. Sure, depending on other factors, the positive impact would vary, but that's rather straight forward and really easy to comprehend.

Not only is that no longer the case and you will have to do a lot more analyzing and micromanaging, if you want to optimize your logistics, but worst of all, one wrongly placed logistical asset can now easily cripple your entire logistical network.

I mean, this might even be part of the intention. If the changes make expanding your logistical network require a little more thought than just spamming truck stations, it sounds like it would actually be a good change.
I agree that it's a bit of an arbitrary rule though, not unlike the branching penalty.

Something I wanna know is if the asset stop rule will make it necessary to get an additional SHQ in late game when you might be reaching the limit of truck station + railway station in the capital.

quote:

Because as crazy as it may be, right now I'd ditch the entire pull system without hesitation to just go back to the original logistical system.

Woah, absolutely disagreeing on that.
I think I'm still more opposed to the branching penalty than this new rule.

(in reply to Vhalor)
Post #: 429
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/22/2020 6:57:35 AM   
Razorix22

 

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On another subject, I've some troubles on the private jobs part since beta5 (not sure if related). Each of my cities list the total number of jobs 100 times less than reality, and making people leave and the private assets rust...

EDIT: Of course, can't post image since I didn't post anything for a week... So, I've that private Dome-Farm III for example, wich need 33K people, but employ 20,9K on my 130K population. In the private population tab, it list that only 2.500 private jobs are available.
If a use a stratagem to increase the number of private jobs (commercial assets or zoo for example), the number of private jobs update correctly, to be lost again next turn.

(in reply to Destragon)
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/22/2020 8:54:08 AM   
Culthrasa

 

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@razor did you try a image site to post? I always use https://snipboard.io/ perhaps that way you can post image's.


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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/22/2020 1:43:04 PM   
Razorix22

 

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Users can't post any links before they reach 10 posts and 7 days delay since that tenth post.

Maybe I can PM you... I'll try that.

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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/22/2020 2:23:46 PM   
Culthrasa

 

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@razor, ahh oke :)

Here are the two screenshots you PM-ed me for all to see :)




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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/22/2020 2:25:50 PM   
Razorix22

 

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Thanks a lot mate ! :D

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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/22/2020 2:27:40 PM   
Culthrasa

 

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To comment on my "own" post :)

You only have 20.400 private citizens in this city. Perhaps they aren't bothered to work (don't know if employment can reach 100%)?
The fact that there are "only" 2500 jobs is the number of filled jobs, not the number of total jobs (the closed down assets aren't counted) I think.
My suggestion would be to enlarge the total amount of people in the city and/or close public jobs if you can.

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Post #: 435
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/22/2020 2:47:38 PM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Culthrasa

The fact that there are "only" 2500 jobs is the number of filled jobs, not the number of total jobs (the closed down assets aren't counted) I think.


No, only 2500 jobs because most of private assets are mothballed (see yellow dot icon near asset name?).

Why AI is mothballing them is a good question and a reason to send save to Vic. Seems it's trying to salvage something, but how something could be more important then food is beyond me.

But 100% you overbuild public assets without taking population in mind.

(in reply to Culthrasa)
Post #: 436
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/22/2020 3:13:59 PM   
jimwinsor


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"On top, there's now no longer even the option to just opt out of the pull system and its accompanying changes, as was the case before. Because as crazy as it may be, right now I'd ditch the entire pull system without hesitation to just go back to the original logistical system. It has its annoyances, but at least for me they are far more manageable compared to the current one. Strange times indeed, when you find yourself chanting: "Down with the pull system and may the 1.0 logistical system rise again!" Perhaps the push system was the one true system all along?!"

I came to the same conclusion in a post on the main thread, although I think the pull system should remain as an option for beginner players.

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(in reply to demiare)
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/22/2020 3:43:19 PM   
Razorix22

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare


quote:

ORIGINAL: Culthrasa

The fact that there are "only" 2500 jobs is the number of filled jobs, not the number of total jobs (the closed down assets aren't counted) I think.


No, only 2500 jobs because most of private assets are mothballed (see yellow dot icon near asset name?).

Why AI is mothballing them is a good question and a reason to send save to Vic. Seems it's trying to salvage something, but how something could be more important then food is beyond me.

But 100% you overbuild public assets without taking population in mind.


Sure I overbuild. ^^

But still, I can't understand why they are mothballing. What's weird is that, if I build a new private asset thanks to a strat (zoo or commercial), the mothballing stop DURING the turn and the numbers are back to normal.

(in reply to demiare)
Post #: 438
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/23/2020 8:12:15 AM   
Vhalor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vhalor

You have logistics problems? Construct more logistical assets! It was that simple. Sure, depending on other factors, the positive impact would vary, but that's rather straight forward and really easy to comprehend.

Not only is that no longer the case and you will have to do a lot more analyzing and micromanaging, if you want to optimize your logistics, but worst of all, one wrongly placed logistical asset can now easily cripple your entire logistical network.

I mean, this might even be part of the intention. If the changes make expanding your logistical network require a little more thought than just spamming truck stations, it sounds like it would actually be a good change.
I agree that it's a bit of an arbitrary rule though, not unlike the branching penalty.

Something I wanna know is if the asset stop rule will make it necessary to get an additional SHQ in late game when you might be reaching the limit of truck station + railway station in the capital.

quote:

Because as crazy as it may be, right now I'd ditch the entire pull system without hesitation to just go back to the original logistical system.

Woah, absolutely disagreeing on that.
I think I'm still more opposed to the branching penalty than this new rule.




quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

"On top, there's now no longer even the option to just opt out of the pull system and its accompanying changes, as was the case before. Because as crazy as it may be, right now I'd ditch the entire pull system without hesitation to just go back to the original logistical system. It has its annoyances, but at least for me they are far more manageable compared to the current one. Strange times indeed, when you find yourself chanting: "Down with the pull system and may the 1.0 logistical system rise again!" Perhaps the push system was the one true system all along?!"

I came to the same conclusion in a post on the main thread, although I think the pull system should remain as an option for beginner players.


Just want to clarify a bit. Starting with the "Because as crazy as it may be, right now I'd ditch the entire pull system without hesitation to just go back to the original logistical system."

I didn't mean that Vic should ditch the entire system. Only that I'd do so for myself, if that option is restored. I was a big fan of the idea of a pull system. But I'm just not enjoying the latest logistical system anymore. This latest change is when I fully realized that sad fact.

Now about the "just spamming truck stations". My point was, for newer players or those that do not care much about logistics, it was simple to understand and used to help to a varying degree. Not that it was the best approach and everything else should be ignored forever. More thought put into your logistical setup = better results. That's good. You want a easy foundation that can be expanded upon. Naturally that includes utilizing other options like rail after some time.

I'm not even sure you could play the game well without relying on the different map modes, so of course I use them, but digging into the traffic control logs really shouldn't be necessary at all unless things go really wrong.

Yet with this latest change, things are problematic now as players can screw up real fast. Remember, they don't have a good understanding of what's going on at all, because they are either new or maybe don't care to dig into the inner workings of the logistical system to begin with. They simply want to build another logistical asset to continue on and obviously expect improvement when they do. Instead however, logistical points suddenly disappear and it messes their entire network up... that seems like a serious problem to me.

As far as I'm aware, the main reason to even start making all these changes to the system was because people were constantly complaining that logistics are too complicated and ruining the game, so I highly doubt the goal of Vic is to make it more complicated. In the end, the real question is just how important and management intensive should the logistical system even be. I saw people saying "screw anyone who doesn't want to master it" to "just remove logistics!". Perhaps some kind of difficulty settings for logistics would be a better option instead of trying to please everyone in one ever expanding system?

_____________________________

"Pull and obtain wisdom. Push and invite ruin." ― Cult of LIS

(in reply to Razorix22)
Post #: 439
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/23/2020 8:21:37 AM   
Vic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Journier

anyone see a issue in latest beta 9 of minor and major worker strike credit costs disparity?

minor and major worker strikes in my game are having similar costs like 250 credits each. however when i make the payoff the major worker strike soaks 1500+ credits out of my treasury.


minor strike cost should be 1 Cr * workers in that Zone
major strike cost should be 2 Cr * workers in that Zone

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Post #: 440
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/23/2020 8:28:09 AM   
Vic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare


quote:

ORIGINAL: Culthrasa

The fact that there are "only" 2500 jobs is the number of filled jobs, not the number of total jobs (the closed down assets aren't counted) I think.


No, only 2500 jobs because most of private assets are mothballed (see yellow dot icon near asset name?).

Why AI is mothballing them is a good question and a reason to send save to Vic. Seems it's trying to salvage something, but how something could be more important then food is beyond me.

But 100% you overbuild public assets without taking population in mind.


Yeah i'll be interested to check up on that savefile.

The rules are working as intended (the stats are from start of turn production, after that the pop decided to mothball the asset).

It seems they should not have done that.

Send it over to vic@vrdesigns.net and include a line reminding me of the issue.

best wishes,
Vic

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Post #: 441
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) - 7/23/2020 9:10:43 AM   
Vic


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Concerning the Logistics discussions. I am still thinking about this. And yes I am using this beta to experiment on my players. My apologies for that.

But it ain't easy to stay faithful to the original idea and get the pull system working at the same time.

Not asking for any understanding here :) just saying it is taking some time to get this to a state where I am happy with it and most players as well.

And @Vhalor, there might be a good chance i am replacing that STOP-at-next-station rule and putting something more refined in its place.

Best wishes,
Vic

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Post #: 442
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/23/2020 10:18:34 AM   
GodwinW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Concerning the Logistics discussions. I am still thinking about this.
But it ain't easy to stay faithful to the original idea and get the pull system working at the same time.



That's why I said it is a slippery slope ( http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4847534 (and also already in http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4847102 )).

That's why I felt it was dangerous to my enjoyment of this beautiful game and why I felt my own preference needed strong, vocal presentation to hopefully close the door on eventually scrapping the original system, why I was very much appreciative of you keeping it and urging you to keep supporting the original system.

I have been playing with the old system, but you don't hear that because I have no feedback on that of course: it just works!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic
just saying it is taking some time to get this to a state where I am happy with it and most players as well.


And this phrase is scary to me. I hardly ever belong to the majority. Let me have this one game that caters to my preferences please. I don't want to see something epic blemished by changes for some majority that doesn't care about my wishes.

Now, I hope you just mean that it's impossible to satisfy everyone with the eventual pull system (which it practically always is and that's just inevitable), and not that you are thinking about scrapping the original system to make things easier. The people who bought the game the way it was and loved it the way it was and who feel like I do will really not be happy with that. I will probably seriously never play again. Such things, I have noticed over the years, mar a game in my head to the point any leftover fun that could be had is offset by a reminder of the direction it went and what could have been that the net enjoyment is below 0. Just a psychological thing for me.

Anyway, enough rambling.

Good luck with it all! :)

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 7/23/2020 10:19:07 AM >

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Post #: 443
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/23/2020 10:57:45 AM   
Vic


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Posted beta10. Replaced the logistics change I made in beta9 by a mechanism that is more interesting (and also much less big a change for people who liked the system before that beta9 change)

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Post #: 444
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/23/2020 1:27:48 PM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

That's why I said it is a slippery slope ( http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4847534 (and also already in http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4847102 )).



The faster to the turn button, the more rapid the boredom.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/23/2020 1:28:07 PM >


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Post #: 445
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/23/2020 2:40:39 PM   
Gywox

 

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I've found a problem with Mass Upgrade.

I tried to upgrade and replace my "soldiers", "soldiers II" and "soldiers III".
It did not work because I did not have any Log.Pts. In the end I managed to fix it and mass upgrade everyone.

The next turn, my two robot armies disappeared. See screenshots.

They been created on the same turn. I'm playing beta 9.

The 38100 infantry were not robots.

If you want my save you have to tell me how to make it available to you. I have no accounts for such.



Can post link to images. Why?
"You are not allowed to post links, emails or phone numbers for 7 days from the date of your tenth post"

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Post #: 446
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/23/2020 2:48:22 PM   
Gywox

 

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img1




Attachment (1)

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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/23/2020 3:04:33 PM   
Gywox

 

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img3






Attachment (1)

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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/23/2020 4:20:56 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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From: Monroe, LA, USA
Status: offline
My one concern about the logistics redo is that perhaps it is being influenced for the wrong people. I respect all the input and work being done, but this is in the end a game, not a logistics exercise. I play complex games, but I usually play them without getting too far under the hood. I played SE with the non-beta log system and loved it. It made sense -- without fixating on the numbers under the hood. I played it mainly just eyeballing the supply overlays, particularly the bottleneck overlay and preview overlay. It worked for me. I loved it. I had to put a lot of thought into it, but I didn't have to count lug nuts and hubcaps. I thought it was genius. It felt like a real logistics system on the surface. I could figure it out and make it work. I'm guessing that was Vic's intent.

I'm playing the beta now. I play it the same way, mainly just eyeballing the supply overlays, particularly the bottleneck overlay and preview overlay. It works for me. I am fine with it. To me, without going under the hood, it seems to play much like the pre-beta system, with perhaps not quite as much putting up roadblocks, or paying PP to cut roads, which never made sense to me since a roadblock is free and you just might need that road you cut rebuilt later if, for example, a new resource site is discovered at the end of that road. I'm looking at the forest. I am concerned that too many are counting trees and not looking at the forest. I thought the idea was to keep the old system and design a somewhat streamlined though still complex, not dumbed down system. But I read about a system that is working for me and find out it is a disaster, the numbers don't add up, this thing isn't working exactly right, that thing isn't working exactly right. And I wonder, what is wrong with me if I'm having fun playing it? I wonder if too many people are looking too closely at the numbers and forgetting about the gameplay.

I've become confused about what the goal of the redesign of the log system is.

(in reply to Gywox)
Post #: 449
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/23/2020 5:41:24 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
quote:

LOGISTICS:
-Games started with Beta10 will NO longer have the stop-at-next-Logistical Asset rule I tried out in Beta9. Instead of stopping the spread of their Logistical Points when meeting another Logistical Asset they’ll now be REFOCUSED at that next Logistical Asset. This Logistical Refocusing will diminish their Logistical Points but reset their AP-used to 0. Formula is refocused Logistical Points are diminished with currently used AP / maximum AP range and for the 1st refocus with a further 25% , for the second refocus with 50% and for the third and final refocus with 75%. This way there is less depleted runners on the map (good for pull) and it is still possible to have overlap (good for ease of play and realism).


Without having played it yet: Interesting! I like the sound of it :)

(in reply to jwarrenw13)
Post #: 450
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