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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/6/2020 8:28:32 PM   
Telemecus


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From memory there is no off map soviet rail capacity. In other industries there are and it is a real problem for the soviet side if there are no railyards further east as historically there would have been.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/6/2020 8:51:29 PM   
redrum68

 

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Yeah, there are no off-map railyards. Essentially there is about 300 railyard capacity to start but I'm guessing on average the Soviets lose 1/3 to 1/2 of that in 1941 especially if you lose Moscow/Leningrad. Here are the top railyards so losing too many of these is gonna cause significant rail capacity shortages later on:



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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/6/2020 9:42:08 PM   
BrianG

 

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i just lowered rail reserve to 0%.

so supply better get better!

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/6/2020 11:54:04 PM   
redrum68

 

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That should help a little bit but even with it at 0% you still are gonna be around 30%. You probably over evacuated ARM/HI and need to either re-evacuate them to reduce production or decrease the percentages at the bottom of the production screen to reduce supply need. Also do whatever you can to not move your tanks so they aren't burning through fuel.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/7/2020 12:12:27 AM   
BrianG

 

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quote:


Matrix Trooper


 

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Status: online That should help a little bit but even with it at 0% you still are gonna be around 30%. You probably over evacuated ARM/HI and need to either re-evacuate them to reduce production or decrease the percentages at the bottom of the production screen to reduce supply need. Also do whatever you can to not move your tanks so they aren't burning through fuel.


but i have lots of fuel. and not high demand as my force is small.

Really would tilt game again to how one does in first few months. Russia is supposed to be resilient and they would NOT under any condition allow the tanks to be unfueled.

Basic 101. If the supply from one city is insufficient they would just get it from another. Correct. Or the supply officer would be ___________! This is the RED army.

Losing rr junctions should not mean less supply to front troops. It assuming loss of freight cars but the russians are also operating on a much smaller scale to the front lines from the factories. The further east the front the closer to their supplies bases. Number of depots is irrelevant. Except as to the supply formula.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/7/2020 12:27:16 AM   
Telemecus


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I think unfortunately this is the law of unintended consequences.

When you make big changes in a system in which you cannot evaluate exhaustively every alternative, you must play test it to be sure of what will happen. v1.12 is a big design change. We are now play testing it to find the rail supply problems in 1942 onwards. I certainly think an overall design would have made sure there were off map soviet railyards. Changing multipliers would not easily cope with all the possible situations.

In theory the number of trains and rail carts you had could be a constraint in war and occasionally was. In practise though it was the easiest to flex and both sides found coal powered steam engines the easiest form of powered transport to increase.

Remember these are just the constraints as know them now. Once understood it is open for an opponent to choke it even further. Will railyard bombing be the new HQ bombing?

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/7/2020 5:39:31 AM   
redrum68

 

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Agree. Probably need to add some off map railyard capacity as well as decrease the amount in Moscow/Leningrad so that keeping/losing them doesn't determine whether you can or can't get supplies to your units. That or make it so railyards can be evacuated like HI/ARM so that so much isn't lost in 1941.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/7/2020 4:59:39 PM   
joelmar


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In RL, railyards are not only important for train maintenance, but even more as hubs to organise freight and switch cars. Not enough of those and the rail systems gets clogged with traffic jams at the hubs, with trains waiting on side lines and a lot of freight still in the warehouses because freight cars could not get there to load it, so there is really a big consequence of this to the level of supplies available to the front troops.

For gameplay, you are probably right if the goal is to keep the Soviets resilient even after a very bad 1941/spring 1942. But I think we are touching on the old subject of where do we draw the line of Soviet resilience? Should the players abilities be leveled artificially to get most games to drag on beyond 1942 or not leveled to model RL and reward the best players? I was reading an old forum thread on this yesterday, they were discussing about the snowballing effect that would have using dynamic national morale levels determined by positions on the map instead of using fixed values going up or down with the years. Of course there were strong advocates for both point of views.

Railyards multipliers are IMO part of the same philosophic questions. Honestly, as a member of this WitE community I wouldn't be able to vote one way or another, because I can understand both point of views, after all we play WitE for fun, we are not students from a military academy, and I'm very much a team player from this point of view. But still, as a matter of personal preference, I would prefer WitE to be more simulation than game.

And I strongly suspect that in RL, if the Germans had captured Moscow and Leningrad, reached the Volga, and then captured Stalingrad, there would probably have been big political turmoils in USSR, which wouldn't have been very good for the health of the Red Army at all levels, resulting in the same kind of desintegration that happened to the Russian Imperial army in WWI.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/7/2020 5:01:04 PM   
morvael


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Yeah, not enough rail capacity is a problem. It's all WAD, but the multipliers may be a bit too low (this sadly has to be determined by people playing the game). On the other hand it was a goal to finish the ability to resupply armies of any size, every turn, along the entire front. Sometimes you have to pause to let the system catch up (as units will stop, supplies will build up and need will lessen).

I wonder what are other people's numbers at this point in the war?

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/7/2020 5:09:44 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
It's all WAD, but the multipliers may be a bit too low (this sadly has to be determined by people playing the game).


I do not agree it is a problem of multipliers. If you raise the multipliers and the Axis do not do as well in 1941, Soviet rail supply will be in effect limitless. If you do not raise the multipliers and the Axis do too well you get this situation. The only way you can accomodate both the games in which the Axis do well and do not do well is adding off-map railyards.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/7/2020 5:49:53 PM   
joelmar


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In 2x3+ we are at turn 59, it's roughly the same situation on the map as Brian's game, and the Soviet commander mentionned a few turns back that rail supply capacity was becoming a real problem.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/7/2020 6:29:51 PM   
Gandalf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
It's all WAD, but the multipliers may be a bit too low (this sadly has to be determined by people playing the game).


<snip>

The only way you can accomodate both the games in which the Axis do well and do not do well is adding off-map railyards.


Instead of just directly adding them in, (in effect penalizing the GE player for doing good), the Soviet player should have to make a choice to increase off-map railyards by diverting some of his HI to pay for it. Just a thought.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/7/2020 9:14:10 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG






Interesting, 20 Tank Corps already.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/7/2020 9:28:18 PM   
BrianG

 

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quote:

Interesting, 20 Tank Corps already.


yes and they were supposed to all have 50 mp's!

Maybe I should put them on the front lines and make them static.


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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/7/2020 9:35:33 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

quote:

Interesting, 20 Tank Corps already.


yes and they were supposed to all have 50 mp's!

Maybe I should put them on the front lines and make them static.




hahahhahaha, you would probably end up with more MP's ;-P

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/8/2020 4:39:36 AM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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quote:

On the other hand it was a goal to finish the ability to resupply armies of any size, every turn, along the entire front. Sometimes you have to pause to let the system catch up (as units will stop, supplies will build up and need will lessen).


Two thumbs up.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/8/2020 9:09:35 PM   
BrianG

 

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turn 57

so i lowered my rail reserve to zero

That really hurt my troop transport number

I have 3000 on rails and only now 4576 for troops. Not good. Not good at all! Rail cap is 4576/67418

Rail under resource status is at 26%.

I dont need the 67418 to move factories. Is that a delayed thing to get more supply?

mp's for tank corp is medium 25% and top at 42%, low at 14%.


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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/8/2020 9:31:02 PM   
eskuche

 

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If you read the changelog for 12.00 you’ll see that industry rail is always 80% (or so can’t remember) of non-reserve rail. It doesn’t cost you anything to use it. It’s “free.”

And yeah it looks like you’ve hit a hole with not enough railyards. Might help to disband a lot of tank brigades to cut down on the fuel need for rail.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/8/2020 9:49:02 PM   
BrianG

 

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should rail reserve be at 100% for better supply? That way its very little for industry and more troops/supply?

or do I remain confused.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/8/2020 9:50:28 PM   
BrianG

 

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quote:

Might help to disband a lot of tank brigades to cut down on the fuel need for rail.


I need every tank unit possible.

Ultimately, I need a coding change!

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/8/2020 9:54:31 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG
Ultimately, I need a coding change!

You need a data change!

And that is quite easy to do - I believe Denniss is in charge of it for each patch?


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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/8/2020 9:54:53 PM   
redrum68

 

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No you want rail reserve at 0% for best supply. Essentially 0% means use as much rail capacity as possible for supply while 100% means use as much as possible for railing units.

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New tests - 6/10/2020 7:55:38 PM   
eskuche

 

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I tested my suspicions of who uses what. I loaded the 42-45 campaign and ran a few turns. I think the numbers speak for themselves.





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RE: New tests - 6/10/2020 10:07:21 PM   
redrum68

 

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I'm guessing you meant 100 fuel and 125 supply per air group?

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/14/2020 7:01:18 PM   
BrianG

 

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the latest

armor corp had mp of 49,

does not move, next turn has mp of 40


is this the new normal?

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/14/2020 7:05:10 PM   
Telemecus


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One change since at least v1.10 is that there are ratings checks for movement points even after an HQBU. So even if you have a full tank of petrol, if you fail your admin check for MPs you have 20% fewer MPs. If you fail your initiative check you would also lose 20% of your MPs. If you lose both you lose the compund which is 36% of MPs.

Given the ratings of Soviet generals I would say it is very likely you will lose at least one of your ratings checks. 50MPs less 20% is indeed 40 MPs. If you lost both you would expect 32MPs. Only in the occasions where you pass both do you have close to 50MPs.

So I would say yes, under the new rules, 40 MPs sounds typical.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/14/2020 8:25:31 PM   
redrum68

 

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@BrianG - Yeah, I believe so since MP is recalculated each turn not stored like fuel/supplies/etc. So even if you had 1000% fuel and just sit there with 50 MP, the next turn if you fail and admin check then you have 40 MP.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/14/2020 8:41:44 PM   
chaos45

 

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well he has lost basically all of European Russia....so that's a lot of rail cap

Not sure how to realistically fix...unless rail cap evacuates as a fix perhaps. Then again Losing Moscow would have been a huge blow to the Soviet rail network.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/14/2020 9:36:29 PM   
eskuche

 

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You should really consider reserving most of your aircraft if you haven’t yet. Winning the air war is a sideshow and luxury if your ground is starving. I just jumped from 67% to 83% in my turn 17 game simply by sticking anything not modern into hangars. Even your IL-4s if you’re not using them to the utmost every turn.

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RE: new beta 05 russian tank corp fuel - 6/15/2020 2:15:49 AM   
Gandalf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

well he has lost basically all of European Russia....so that's a lot of rail cap

Not sure how to realistically fix...unless rail cap evacuates as a fix perhaps. Then again Losing Moscow would have been a huge blow to the Soviet rail network.


I stated earlier that the Soviet player needs to be able to produce rail cap to some degree using perhaps HI or whatever. If the Soviets could produce Tanks, Artillery, and everything else in the Urals, they sure as heck would have been able to produce rail engines, cars, and rail track etc. to use on their existing tracks still in their possession. It shouldn't be "freely" added however... It should be at a cost to something else since they have basically lost all of European Russia to the Germans.

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