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rout under new beta .05

 
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rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 12:14:05 PM   
BrianG

 

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I am seeing one issue under the new beta .05

If you trap enemy units during your turn, I have seen (at least twice) were ground combat units in the new pocket which rout, are routing to within the same new pocket and not to a space where they are in supply. Thus these routs will not be in any chance for supply (or i assume chance to un-rout) the next turn as they remain cut off.

First move if rout should be to a supplied are. This is from my latest turn with Tyronec turn 53 into 54.

I have now seen this happen twice with the new rout routine.

This can't be the intended result of a rout. Thus it need to be fixed.

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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 12:59:49 PM   
BrianG

 

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what happened was a follows

6 or 7 German tank divisions, get cut off by Russian suicide tank corp. German Panzer Hq's in new pocket get routed out (west) in next pocket battle.

Spear tip then gets cut again with now 2 German Tanks in spear tip , fully surrounded.

These 2 tanks divisions then get routed and rout to the main pocket and not further west into supplied territory.

(causing 2 normal panzer divisions to turn 'rout black', they landed on an SS mech div and now the stack is all black, 2 routs and one ss)


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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 1:55:15 PM   
joelmar


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I don't know if this applies to the case you are describing as there is no image of the problem. But displacement moves (rout) are no garantee that the units will get out of a pocket as it used to be.

Change Log 1.12.05

4. Faster (nominal MP of 25 or more) combat units will no longer displace at greater distance than slower combat units. Minimum displacement move range will be 3 hexes for combat units, and 5 hexes for non-combat units. Maximum displacement move range will be 9 hexes for combat units, and 15 hexes for non-combat units.

Also:

Units making a retreat or displacement move may expend up to their maximum possible MP allowance

< Message edited by joelmar -- 5/31/2020 1:59:08 PM >


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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 2:17:21 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG
This can't be the intended result of a rout. Thus it need to be fixed.


I guess it will need to be confirmed whether that was the intention. But is there any reason why it should not be? Escaping one pocket only to end up in another was a common phenomenon in the history. The common complaint used to be that units could always escape pockets by being routed out no matter how far this displaced them. Would this occasional prolongation of danger not be more realistic?


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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 2:21:17 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Would this occasional prolongation of danger not be more realistic?


+1

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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 2:50:51 PM   
BrianG

 

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couple of issues.

the rout results in a leader check to see if get out of rout. If unit routs into new pocket and its hq is not there then it has no chance to unrout next turn. Which means it will be routed again or forced to surrender.

Rout is part of a complex attack system, and I dont think they want these units out of action for soo many turns.

The old rule it routed to where hq was nearest. thus could un-rout next turn.

This rule will cause too many good units to be lost from play for turns on end. The Germans might not be as aggressive in the future and i'm sure we don't want that.



And if this is the case why even have routs.

Routs should always be into supplied territory.

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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 3:36:24 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

The Germans might not be as aggressive in the future and i'm sure we don't want that.



Given that I will be playing your Nazis at some point.......... I don't need to say more but it must cut both ways.

Routing units have never lost nearly enough (especially heavy equipment) and, as said above, IRL often could not rout to safety. The 2 key factors were always

1 How easy would it be to get back to safety assuming no real opposition? In other words distance/terrain/mobility/fuel/supply issues.

2 The strength of blocking forces. This is absolutely crucial for obvious reasons, but never factored into the game at all.

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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 3:46:08 PM   
tyronec


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Would agree with Brian on this, that units should always rout into supply.
Had a couple of Soviet units on my turn that routed inside a pocket. It is a fine balance with herding units, if you attack will you risk routing them to safety - that is how it should be.

With there being a chance for units to rout into a pocket it may open up some really odd results, like you could isolate a unit during the turn and then rout it into a secure pocket elsewhere. Not sure if this is possible but looks like it might be.

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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 4:19:03 PM   
joelmar


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It never made sense to me that a unit could rout over distances it can't physically cover by normal movement during a turn. And I doubt the routing rule was made to make sure a unit could get back in supply if the pocket is not sealed. A unit routs because it lost the battle and then lost all form of cohesion during retreat which becomes a rout.

IMO if it can get to safety through this process fine, else, it's dead meat, which is exactly what happens in RL.

< Message edited by joelmar -- 5/31/2020 4:20:11 PM >


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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 5:48:19 PM   
BrianG

 

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too me a rout is an assumed advance which gets repulsed. The routed unit was not really in the hex its in, it was counterattacked. but since counterattack only happens during an opponents turn, you have to wait for that result.

Thus it should not be out of supply, it was always in supply. and should be after routing.

The game uses a 1 week out of supply rule to determine which units can get wiped out via surrender.

The rout rule must and should follow that.

< Message edited by BrianG -- 5/31/2020 5:52:15 PM >

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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 6:18:40 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: BrianG
too me a rout is an assumed advance which gets repulsed.


how can this be when only defending units rout? In this case, the units where counterattacked, ok, I get that. But most of the time, routs happen to units defending a line.

And in any case, even if it was as you say. Imagine. You have an infantry division of 10000+ men and their equipment, plus the divisional HQ, support units and so on. They get counterattacked. They retreat, but the enemy keeps the pressure on with a close pursuit, panic and chaos spreads and the ordered retreat turns into a rout, with people fleeing for their lives in small groups and in disarray, with communication very difficult if not unexistent. And then, all of sudden, all those guys magically end up more than 100 miles from there, close enough physically to each other to be reformed into a coherent organisation in a few days?

I know Wite is a game engine that is using approximations to model unperfectly reality, and I can live with that in most cases, but the routing stuff was one of the worst logic problem of the game IMO and I love that it has been changed for something more instinctive and close to reality in the field.

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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 7:21:15 PM   
tyronec


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It is not just when units are counter attacked and get routed.

Take for example you have a solid front line.
The opponents attack and surround a stack of units with a double pincer. They then attack those units and they rout.
The game is trying to simulate that situation. Because of the alternative moves those units were temporarily cut off and surrounded but it is really simulating that they were just beaten in a standard frontal attack.
So it is reasonable that they do not take huge losses because of the rout.
And they should rout to a hex that is in supply, because they were never really out of supply.

If the game system made them take a big hit for this situation then the whole dynamics of the game would change. I think it would probably break down. There are too many units in the game that move fast enough to create this situation with some frequency. To have a game that would work like that, on this scale, you might need to go to a move every 2 or 3 days rather than weekly and so slow down movement and allow the opponent to react.

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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 5/31/2020 10:41:47 PM   
joelmar


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Deleted

< Message edited by joelmar -- 6/1/2020 3:36:29 PM >


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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 6/1/2020 7:05:25 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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My two penneth.

Rout is not the willi-nilly blind running that seems to be assumed in many games. It's the result of a unit losing it's ability to fight as a unit and therefore attempting to get to safety.

The first initial movement should always be away from the direction of attack and not compass bearing. Once contact is broken from the attacking units and any units adjacent to the attacking units then an attempt should be made to move towards your supposed lines using the terrain (possible not the more difficult terrain like mountains) keeping away from the units and adjacent units that carried out the attack. How far this distance is is a matter for conjecture but given the size of each hex in the game just one. For me, getting to a supply source is not priority, safety is.

Movement in the game is combat movement, units could move much further in one turn than their movement allowance as they are ignoring standard movement procedures, how far is again subject to conjecture but it should always be the max distance and never end next to an enemy unit. Initial movement would be by direction, ignoring terrain but once contact is broken then cover would used especially if it takes them into another enemy ZOC. Just because unit routs does this mean it will always take the easiest route (no cover). Maybe until contact is broken as panic has set in, but after I don't think so. They would seek cover.

As to moving into another pocket or within a pocket, how the hell would a disorganised rabble know they were? Safety's that way, lets go! The route it takes to safety (ie. East for Soviets, West for Axis) could be any one of three hexes in an attempt to avoid ZOC or entering enemy hexes and only if it can't, would it edo so. Choice of direction would be made on entering their current hex and not preplanned but it would use cover if possible and not the easiest route.

If any movement would take then into an enemy ZOC or hex then extra losses should be incurred resulting in possible further surrender/shatter etc.

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RE: rout under new beta .05 - 7/8/2020 7:33:26 PM   
Ridgeway

 

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One additional thing I have noticed is that units no longer always rout to towns/cities. Now they seem to rout to any type of hex. Is that new, or have I just not noticed it in earlier patches?


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