Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

The Italians in WitE

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> The Italians in WitE Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
The Italians in WitE - 5/31/2020 10:37:27 AM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline
I believe the Italians in WitE should be able to attach battallion and lower sized support units directly to the divisions (in the same way as the Germans do). I fully respect such a change not to be implemented in WitE I but I hope to see it in WitE II.

Historically, the Italians had developed a military doctrine called "the war of rapid movement" prior to Word War II. This doctrine called for smaller divisions with two rather than three regiments pr division (called binary divisions).

The point of this was to free up the divisional infantry commanders from having to command three infantry regiments (all with pretty much the same capabilities), which gave a series of advantages.

One of the main ones was the ability to attach support units to a divison without overburdening the divisional commander. For instance, if a division was to attack a fortified position, the army command could temporarily attach a pioneer batallion, a siege artillery batallion and a flame tank company to the division, which gave it a much more effective than it would have been with simply three infantry regiments. If the same division then had to cross a river, the support units would be detached and engineers would be attached instead.

Another benefit was that a binary division was actually faster than a similar division with three regiments. Unfortunately for the Italians, this didn't really help much in North Africa, where their fast binary infantry divisions were continously outmaneuvered by much faster motorized British and Commonwealth divisions.

This idea of attatching support units to smaller divisions also show in the order of battle for WitE, where the Italians in 1942 have:

1 Army (on map unit)
3 Army Corps (on map units)
10 Divisions (on map units)
2 Brigades (on map units)
5 Regiments (support units)
48 battallions (support units)
12 Companies (support units)

Given the way that the game handles support units (attaching the to HQ's), this means that the Italians will have 3 Corps (4 including the Airforce Corps) with a total of 65 support units attached, giving an average of 15 support units pr Corps. This is ridiculous given that the chance of adding support units to combat drops with every support unit already attached.

This leave the Italians as being about the worst (excluding Slovakia) Axis Minor nation in the game. I do cerainly not argue that the Italians should be anywhere near the Germans in effectiveness, but I do believe that they should be at least as good as (and a little better than) the Rumanians and the Hungarians.

Thus, being in line with the Italian doctrine (while not allowing the Italians to attach 3 extra regiments to a division for a high CV division), I believe that the Italians should be able to attach batallion and company sized support units directly to a division.

What are your thoughts?


< Message edited by Dinglir -- 5/31/2020 10:47:14 AM >


_____________________________

To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra
Post #: 1
RE: The Italians in WitE - 5/31/2020 12:09:18 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4406
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: online
I have not done much reading on this area. But given what you said this does sound right to me.

What were the reasons for not allowing the southern allies to directly attach SUs but allowing the Germans and Finns to do so?

_____________________________

Gary Grigsby Discord https://discord.gg/8aMpk9Q

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 2
RE: The Italians in WitE - 5/31/2020 9:26:52 PM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 244
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline
quote:

What were the reasons for not allowing the southern allies to directly attach SUs but allowing the Germans and Finns to do so?


The Finns? You cannot attach SUs to the Finnish units, only Germany can do this to there own units.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 3
RE: The Italians in WitE - 5/31/2020 9:49:29 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4406
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

quote:

What were the reasons for not allowing the southern allies to directly attach SUs but allowing the Germans and Finns to do so?


The Finns? You cannot attach SUs to the Finnish units, only Germany can do this to there own units.


You are right, I was thinking of being broken down to regiments - wrong point.

So rephrase question. Why not directly assign allied SUs?
Also why not let southern allies break down to regiments?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/31/2020 9:53:45 PM >


_____________________________

Gary Grigsby Discord https://discord.gg/8aMpk9Q

(in reply to Naughteous Maximus)
Post #: 4
RE: The Italians in WitE - 5/31/2020 10:58:00 PM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline
I guess the reason for allowing the Germans (ond noone else) to attach to divisions is that they did have better leadership overall, making the m able to attach more units to a given division.

I do not really see the point of breaking an Italian unit into its component parts given that they a re already extremely weak.

Those are my guesses, but I weren't involved in developing the game, so your guesses are as good as mine.


_____________________________

To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 5
RE: The Italians in WitE - 6/1/2020 1:31:32 AM   
eskuche

 

Posts: 391
Joined: 3/27/2018
From: USA
Status: offline
If you want to conjure a reason for it, I imagine one is the German ability to form (regimental sized?) kampfgruppen, which in the literature I've read were exceedingly fluid and achieved their mission objectives through the leadership doctrine of auftragstaktik, or freedom to exploit tactical opportunities down to perhaps even the squad level. I'm not sure regarding the time length of SU detachment/attachment for these missions, however.

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 6
RE: The Italians in WitE - 6/1/2020 2:04:54 AM   
Karri

 

Posts: 933
Joined: 5/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

If you want to conjure a reason for it, I imagine one is the German ability to form (regimental sized?) kampfgruppen, which in the literature I've read were exceedingly fluid and achieved their mission objectives through the leadership doctrine of auftragstaktik, or freedom to exploit tactical opportunities down to perhaps even the squad level. I'm not sure regarding the time length of SU detachment/attachment for these missions, however.


But that's not really in-line with the thinking of attaching battalions, regiments and companies to divisions. If anything, it's the Finns who should have this ability as they operated quite a diverse collection of detached units.

(in reply to eskuche)
Post #: 7
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> The Italians in WitE Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.123