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RE: When does something become history and not "too political"?

 
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RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/3/2020 2:02:52 PM   
Mobeer


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I think the difficulty on this forum is that discussing politics is banned, yet the games we play involve politics:

Strategic Command WW2 - player can spend production points to influence politics of other nations
War in the Pacific - player has "political points" to spend on moving units, commanders etc
Conflict Middle East - player can choose policing tactics, and create a Palestian homeland
Rule the Waves 2 - keeping increasing budget and "unrest" can grow


Let's not even mention "EPISODE 2: YOU BREXIT, YOU FIX IT!", or to quote the Matrix Games web site:
"The second scenario is this set ‘No BREXIT, no Problem!’ will portray a cohesive, non-destabilized NATO response."
https://www.matrixgames.com/game/command-live-you-brexit-you-fix-it

How do we discuss that without politics creeping in?

(in reply to gamer78)
Post #: 31
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/3/2020 3:18:51 PM   
Lobster


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It isn't that difficult to separate politics from games.

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RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/3/2020 3:47:10 PM   
OldSarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

It isn't that difficult to separate politics from games.

Many of us here are not fanatics. We can change our opinions, in the face of evidence, and are delighted to change the subject to something more agreeable.

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Post #: 33
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/3/2020 7:26:29 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobeer
I think the difficulty on this forum is that discussing politics is banned, yet the games we play involve politics:
Strategic Command WW2 - player can spend production points to influence politics of other nations
War in the Pacific - player has "political points" to spend on moving units, commanders etc
Conflict Middle East - player can choose policing tactics, and create a Palestian homeland
Rule the Waves 2 - keeping increasing budget and "unrest" can grow


I don't think these game mechanics require a political discussion. Modeling diplomacy or alliances in historical settings does not mean that in order to discuss them we need to bring in more current and divisive political topics. Historical wargames about WW2 include Nazis and Communists, for example, yet playing them neither makes one a Nazi or Communist nor requires an extended politico-economic discussion of fascism or communism. The games themselves are not about politics, but about strategy, including grand strategy but that's a completely different focus than a game about political history.

quote:


Let's not even mention "EPISODE 2: YOU BREXIT, YOU FIX IT!", or to quote the Matrix Games web site:
"The second scenario is this set ‘No BREXIT, no Problem!’ will portray a cohesive, non-destabilized NATO response."
https://www.matrixgames.com/game/command-live-you-brexit-you-fix-it

How do we discuss that without politics creeping in?


I will admit that's a tougher one. I think as it really is a completely hypothetical setup for a set of military scenarios based on the EU completely breaking apart, the scenarios themselves and their tactics and strategies discussed without the political side, but I agree the title and the hypothetical are definitely the closest thing in our catalog to a game that is hard to separate from current politics. The focus with the Command expansions was to show how present day potential military conflicts could be modeled with that simulation, but it also necessitates stepping into the present day events rather than keeping to more distant history with cooler passions.

Regards,

- Erik



< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 6/3/2020 7:27:33 PM >


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Post #: 34
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/3/2020 8:47:26 PM   
MrRoadrunner


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I once had a person state that they were "offended" by my comments. I then said, "I'm offended that you are offended. Now where do we go from here?"
Where most political discussions go south is when one side says "only what I say is right and you have no right to speak your opinion." At that point what is the sense of continuing?

RR

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Post #: 35
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/3/2020 9:00:46 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

I once had a person state that they were "offended" by my comments. I then said, "I'm offended that you are offended. Now where do we go from here?"
Where most political discussions go south is when one side says "only what I say is right and you have no right to speak your opinion." At that point what is the sense of continuing?

RR


Saw a lot of that in a recent thread.

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Post #: 36
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/3/2020 9:43:43 PM   
gamer78

 

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I've moderated 9 years in one forum I can assure hard discussion was about whether II. Beyazıt (Ottoman Turks) really imprisoned in iron cage by Timur Khan. There was some ideological background for discussion. So anyway anything can be political but from my experience of moderating, forum members are not moderators. It is the job of moderators. Confusion could come writing too much and dedication. Matrix games forum tell theoretically about different nationalities but not correct unfortunately. It is very much Americanized forum.

Bottom line is most of us here are not fanatics. Cheers.

< Message edited by gamer78 -- 6/3/2020 9:44:10 PM >

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 37
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/3/2020 10:07:14 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gamer78
It is very much Americanized forum.


I think it would be better to say the Anglosphere was more represented here, not simply the U.S. although the U.S. population is second behind China in digital gaming expenditure. Throw in the other anglo nations and the Anglosphere is the largest spender. So what you attempt point out is no surprise is it?

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Post #: 38
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/4/2020 5:47:49 PM   
MrRoadrunner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

I once had a person state that they were "offended" by my comments. I then said, "I'm offended that you are offended. Now where do we go from here?"
Where most political discussions go south is when one side says "only what I say is right and you have no right to speak your opinion." At that point what is the sense of continuing?

RR


Saw a lot of that in a recent thread.


Got me!

RR

_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 39
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/4/2020 8:49:44 PM   
Malevolence


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Positivism v. Constructivism.

It's subjective epistemology (i.e. constructivism). The part you may have noticed is it's the subjective reality of the people with power at the moment.

I'm glad I'm not a civil war gamer. Those games may become persona non grata as well.

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Post #: 40
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/4/2020 9:20:09 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
I'm glad I'm not a civil war gamer. Those games may become persona non grata as well.


Which one? Here are the 'modern' ones:

Castle Hill convict rebellion, 1804
Gutiérrez–Magee Expedition (Texas), 1812–1813
Argentine Civil Wars, 1814–1880
Zulu Civil War, 1817–1819
Long Expedition (Texas), 1819, 1821
Greek Civil War, 1824–1825
Fredonian Rebellion (Texas), 1826–1827
Liberal Wars (Portugal), 1828–1834
Chilean Civil War, 1829–1830
Revolutions of 1830; numerous European countries, 1830
Carlist Wars (Spain), 1833–1839, 1846–1849, and 1872–1876
Texas Revolution 1835–1836
Ragamuffin War (Brazil), 1835–1845
Chimayó Rebellion (New Mexico), 1837
Córdova Rebellion (Texas), 1838
Uruguayan Civil War, 1839–1851
Rio Grande Rebellion, 1840
Yucatán Rebellion, 1841–1848
Bear Flag Revolt (California), 1846
Sonderbund War (Switzerland), November 1847
Revolutions of 1848; numerous European countries, 1848–1849
Revolution of 1851 (Chile)
Taiping Rebellion (China), 1851–1863
Bleeding Kansas (United States), 1854–1858
Eureka Rebellion (Australia), 1854
Utah War (United States), 1857–1858
War of Reform (Mexico), 1857–1861
Federal War (Venezuela), 1859–1863
American Civil War (United States), 1861–1865
Austro-Prussian War (Germany), 1866
Klang War (Malaysia); also known as Selangor Civil War, 1867–1874
Boshin War (Japan), 1868–1869
Satsuma Rebellion (Japan), 1877
Jementah Civil War (Malaysia), 1878
The North-West Rebellion (Canada), 1885
Revolution of the Park (Argentina), 1890
Chilean Civil War, 1891
Argentine Revolution of 1893, 1893
War of Canudos (Brazil), 1896–1897
Banana Wars (Central America), 1898–1934
Federal Revolution, (Bolivia), 1899
Boxer Rebellion (China), 1899–1901
Thousand Days' War (Colombia), 1899–1902
Revolución Libertadora (Venezuela), 1901–1903
Argentine Revolution of 1905, 1905
Persian Constitutional Revolution, 1905–1911, Civil War considered to begin after 1908
Mexican Revolution, 1910–1920
Warlord Era; period of civil wars between regional, provincial, and private armies in China, 1912–1928
Russian Civil War, 1917–1921
Iraqi–Kurdish conflict, 1918–2003
Finnish Civil War, 1918
German Revolution, 1918–1919
Revolts during the Turkish War of Independence, includes conflict between the Imperial Ottoman Government and the Turkish National Movement, 1919–1922
Irish Civil War, 1922–1923
Paraguayan Civil War, 1922–1923
Nicaraguan Civil War, 1926–1927
Cristero War (Mexico), 1926–1929
Chinese Civil War, 1927–1937, 1945–1949, ceasefire since 1949
Brazilian Civil War, (Brazil), 1932
Austrian Civil War, February 1934
Spanish Civil War, 1936–1939
Forest Brothers, 1940–1941, 1944–1953
Yugoslav Civil War during World War II, 1941–1945
Ukrainian Insurgent Army insurgency, 1943–1956
Italian Civil War during WWII 1943–1945
Revolución Libertadora (Argentina), 1955
Anti-communist resistance in Poland, 1944–1947/1963
1945 to 2020
See also: § Ongoing civil wars
Iran crisis of 1946, 1945–1946
Greek Civil War , 1946–1949
Paraguayan Civil War, 1947
Romanian anti-communist resistance movement, 1947–1962
Civil War in Mandatory Palestine, 1947–1948
Costa Rican Civil War, 1948
Yeosu–Suncheon rebellion, 1948
Jeju uprising, 1948
La Violencia (Colombia), 1948–1958
Malayan Emergency (Federation of Malaya), 1948–1960
Internal conflict in Myanmar, ongoing since 1948
Korean War, 1950–1952, ceasefire since 1952
Cuban Revolution, 1953-1959
Laotian Civil War, 1953–1975
First Sudanese Civil War, 1955–1972
Vietnam War, 1955-1975
Congo Crisis, 1960–1966
Guatemalan Civil War, 1960–1996
North Yemen Civil War 1962–1970
Sarawak Communist Insurgency (Malaysia), 1962–1990
Nicaraguan Civil War, 1962–1990
Dominican Civil War, 1965
Rhodesian Bush War, 1965–1980
Communist insurgency in Thailand (Thailand), 1965–1983
Cypriot Civil War (Cyprus crisis of 1963–64)
Cambodian Civil War, 1967–1975
Nigerian Civil War, 1967–1970
Communist insurgency in Malaysia (1968–89)
The Troubles (Northern Ireland), 1969–1998, considered ongoing by extremist minority groups
Bangladesh Liberation War (Pakistan), 1971 (However, the war is not an official civil war, only to the perspective to those who did not support the existence of the independent state of Bangladesh.)
Ethiopian Civil War, 1974–1991
Lebanese Civil War, 1975–1990
Mozambican Civil War, 1975–1992
Angolan Civil War, (1961–1974), 1976–2002
Free Aceh Movement, 1976–2005
Soviet–Afghan War, part of / also called War in Afghanistan (1978–present) December 24, 1979 – February 15, 1989 (Soviet–Afghan War lasted over nine years from 1979–1989 and was part of the Cold War but it was inevitable that the regime was to collapse within three to six months after the Soviet withdrawal)
Salvadoran Civil War (El Salvador), 1979–1992
Peru's War on Terror 1980–1993
Second Sudanese Civil War, 1983–2005
Sri Lankan Civil War, 1983–2009
South Yemen Civil War, 1986
Afghan Civil War (1989–1992), February 15, 1989 – April 30, 1992 The continuing part of the civil war where the Soviet Union withdrew from Afghanistan, leaving the Afghan communist government to fend for itself against the Mujahideen months later part of / also called War in Afghanistan (1978–present)
First Liberian Civil War, 1989–1996
Rwandan Civil War, 1990–1994
Casamance Conflict (Senegal), 1990–2006
Georgian Civil War, 1991–1993
Sierra Leone Civil War, 1991–2002
Yugoslav Wars, 1991–1999[7][8][9][10][11]
Algerian Civil War, 1991–2002, conflicts persist
Civil war in Tajikistan, 1992–1997
Afghan Civil War (1992–1996), April 30, 1992 – September 27, 1996 When the Afghan communist government falls to the Mujahideen there was a rise in different kinds of ideology, power-sharing, Belligerents and violent fighting continue to escalate part of / also called War in Afghanistan (1978–present)
Burundi Civil War, 1993–2005
First Yemeni Civil War, 1994
Iraqi Kurdish Civil War, 1994–1997
Afghan Civil War (1996–2001), September 27, 1996 – October 7, 2001 In 1996 the Taliban captured the Afghan capital Kabul and established the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan part of / also called War in Afghanistan (1978–present)
First Congo War, 1996–1997
Clashes in Cambodia, 1997
Nepalese Civil War, 1996–2006
Rebellion in Albania, 1997
Republic of the Congo Civil War, 1997–1999
Guinea-Bissau Civil War, 1998–1999
Second Congo War, 1998–2003
Uprising in Iraq (18 February 1999 – April 1999)
Second Liberian Civil War, 1999–2003
First Libyan Civil War (2011)
Syrian Civil War (2011 - present)
Iraqi Civil War (2014 - 2017)
Second Libyan Civil War (2014 - present)
Second Yemeni Civil War (2015 - present)

_____________________________

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

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Post #: 41
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/4/2020 10:54:15 PM   
z1812


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Only the Moderators know for sure............ Thread open = non-polictical, Thread closed = Polictical.

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Post #: 42
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/6/2020 12:51:07 AM   
Simulacra53


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Never, because people put history in context around a modern narrative.
Even ancient history can still have a devastating effect, just look at the middle east.

Pick your poison.

I have no problems with almost everything before ‘45, but more modern that’s when it gets harder as the ramifications are still echoing hard today, impacting people including first generation, and at least I judge them by my current world views.

(in reply to gamer78)
Post #: 43
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/7/2020 1:49:11 AM   
gamer78

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: gamer78
It is very much Americanized forum.


I think it would be better to say the Anglosphere was more represented here, not simply the U.S. although the U.S. population is second behind China in digital gaming expenditure. Throw in the other anglo nations and the Anglosphere is the largest spender. So what you attempt point out is no surprise is it?


Yes but it also tells about what is political to who. Besides Civil Wars and other wars there is great refugee problem about Syrian war. That is political also.
Brexit is last in my agenda about what is political, I think politics depends on geography so I mention it. Cheers.

< Message edited by gamer78 -- 6/7/2020 1:55:24 AM >

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 44
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/11/2020 9:23:49 AM   
Pvt_Grunt

 

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War becomes NON political when there is no-one left alive to make it political. This does not have a time limit imposed.
Examples;
NON POLITICAL-
1) - Norman invasion of Britain - too long ago for any of us to care
2) - Age of Empires - great game, very violent towards other cultures but purely a game. I never heard a single complaint about Minoan rights!
POLITICAL -
1) - US Civil War - there is STILL debate about confederate monuments!
2) - Bosnian civil War - still war criminals free.
3) - Anything Nazi related in Germany - they have laws against swastikas

I am open to debate but I will always sympathise with the oppressed.

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Post #: 45
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/11/2020 6:05:05 PM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt

I am open to debate but I will always sympathise with the oppressed.


And, seemingly discreetly, you have just slid your way into pure politics.

Whereas here, we talk about games, and the playing of, specifically war games.

Did you have a game in mind?




< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 6/11/2020 6:06:23 PM >

(in reply to Pvt_Grunt)
Post #: 46
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/12/2020 6:44:30 AM   
Pvt_Grunt

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt

I am open to debate but I will always sympathise with the oppressed.


And, seemingly discreetly, you have just slid your way into pure politics.

Whereas here, we talk about games, and the playing of, specifically war games.

Did you have a game in mind?

Yes I did slide into politics, not in a sneaky way. And possibly breached Matrix Games policy while at it, which I respect. This is a gamers forum after all.

No I didnt have a specific game in mind, but I am playing RDR2 at times where you get to abuse then kill a southern slave trader among other fun tasks.

There have been a few conversations online about the perils of being a coloured person in the game. BUT it is set in 1899 when it was a bad time to be a coloured person in America, so is it political or realistic?

Asking for a friend....



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Post #: 47
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/12/2020 1:26:53 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 3944
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt

Asking for a friend....



That's what she said.

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Post #: 48
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/12/2020 7:54:57 PM   
RichG

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt
it was a bad time to be a coloured person in America


Much like today then.

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Post #: 49
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/12/2020 9:24:37 PM   
Lobster


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The suicidal tendencies of humanity never fail to amaze me. Nor amuse me.

Time for the padlock.

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Post #: 50
RE: When does something become history and not "to... - 6/12/2020 9:43:21 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

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This thread was always on thin ice. Let's not start another one.

Cheers

Pip


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