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Event Effects - 5/26/2020 11:16:41 PM   
Mark Breed


Posts: 311
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From: Orange County, CA
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When an event is triggered, is it only for the turn/turn range that it is activated; or, does it continue until cancelled?

For example, if I set the Replacement Rate at 200, does this rate remain in effect for the rest of the game or only for the turn it is set for? Do I need to do another event to set it back to 100 or to have it continue for another turn?

Are there any events effects that once triggered continue to be in effect until ended or reset?

Thank you,
Mark
Post #: 1
RE: Event Effects - 5/27/2020 4:35:42 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9150
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: online
Setting 200% Repl will double replacements and it will remain at that level unless changed by another Event. Some are not the same, you should make a simple 'blank' scenario for testing purposes. As Ripley said, 'It's the only way to be sure'

(in reply to Mark Breed)
Post #: 2
RE: Event Effects - 5/27/2020 7:02:02 AM   
Mark Breed


Posts: 311
Joined: 9/4/2003
From: Orange County, CA
Status: offline
Thanks.

After thinking about your test scenario suggestion, I have decided that it is just easier to treat all events as if I have to set them every turn, and turn them off or reset them when I am done with them. After all, I have 10,000 slots for events. It is not likely that I will run out of slots. This way I don't have to worry whether or not the event turns itself off or continues every turn.

Regards,
Mark

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 3
RE: Event Effects - 5/27/2020 1:49:17 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11987
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Breed

Thanks.

After thinking about your test scenario suggestion, I have decided that it is just easier to treat all events as if I have to set them every turn, and turn them off or reset them when I am done with them. After all, I have 10,000 slots for events. It is not likely that I will run out of slots. This way I don't have to worry whether or not the event turns itself off or continues every turn.

Regards,
Mark

That will double replacements every turn. Soon you'll have 2 ^ n replacements. Better to actually understand the event effects.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Mark Breed)
Post #: 4
RE: Event Effects - 5/27/2020 5:44:56 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1586
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If I recall correctly, there is a document out there ... I think it was called, "The Evil Event Engine"
and I think it might speak to your questions .... or maybe not,
but it is worth a look, if you have not already seen this
https://thetoawbeachhead.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/evil-ed-toaw-3-4.pdf

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 5
RE: Event Effects - 5/27/2020 10:00:02 PM   
Mark Breed


Posts: 311
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From: Orange County, CA
Status: offline
Thank you all for the feedback.

Hellen_slith, thank you for the pdf. I was hoping that there was more documentation on how the Event Editor worked.

It is a shame that a game with so many wonderful capabilities isn't documented better. Of course, I am relatively new to the system; so, I am probably more ignorant than most as to the workings of the game. Even so, I am finding out that all of these capabilities are great for a scenario designer and I hope to maximize their use. I just need to know how to use them.

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 6
RE: Event Effects - 5/27/2020 10:03:19 PM   
Mark Breed


Posts: 311
Joined: 9/4/2003
From: Orange County, CA
Status: offline
[/quote]
That will double replacements every turn. Soon you'll have 2 ^ n replacements. Better to actually understand the event effects.
[/quote]

Bob, that is why I am asking questions when it is not detailed in the rules.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 7
RE: Event Effects - 5/27/2020 10:58:44 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 3912
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Breed


That will double replacements every turn. Soon you'll have 2 ^ n replacements. Better to actually understand the event effects.


Bob, that is why I am asking questions when it is not detailed in the rules.


Testing this would have revealed the answer.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to Mark Breed)
Post #: 8
RE: Event Effects - 5/27/2020 11:31:31 PM   
Mark Breed


Posts: 311
Joined: 9/4/2003
From: Orange County, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Breed


That will double replacements every turn. Soon you'll have 2 ^ n replacements. Better to actually understand the event effects.


Bob, that is why I am asking questions when it is not detailed in the rules.


Testing this would have revealed the answer.


Putting it in the rules would have been the better solution. If you are going to say the game can do this, then you should explain how to do this in the rules.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 9
RE: Event Effects - 5/28/2020 1:16:20 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9150
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: online
I have my own manual for Players and Designers [Game and Editor]. I have considered a more detailed Editor Manual in the past, but the main reason against putting in the effort is that things change. See the document that Hellen posted as an example, it's a great document, but it does mention some things that have changed, and some things have changed since it was released. Making a Test Scenario really is fairly easy, takes about ten minutes, and after that you can use it to quickly test stuff.

And of course, there are a few of us still around that don't mind answering these questions.

(in reply to Mark Breed)
Post #: 10
RE: Event Effects - 5/28/2020 5:24:27 PM   
Mark Breed


Posts: 311
Joined: 9/4/2003
From: Orange County, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Breed

Thanks.

After thinking about your test scenario suggestion, I have decided that it is just easier to treat all events as if I have to set them every turn, and turn them off or reset them when I am done with them. After all, I have 10,000 slots for events. It is not likely that I will run out of slots. This way I don't have to worry whether or not the event turns itself off or continues every turn.

Regards,
Mark

That will double replacements every turn. Soon you'll have 2 ^ n replacements. Better to actually understand the event effects.

Bob,

Does this mean that in order to reset (i.e. bring the back to normal/initial setting) the replacement rate from say 600 to 100 that the correcting event has to set the replacement rate at 17 versus 100 (600 x 17% = 102).

Yes, Lobster, I do plan on trying to set up a test scenario. But, was hoping that this would be a simple answer.

Thank you.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 11
RE: Event Effects - 5/28/2020 5:47:47 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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As we have all learned, there is rarely a simple answer regarding the Event Editor. Thus the moniker, Evil Ed.

One of the problems as you are now aware is the lack of dissemination of information. Finding out how something worked used to be like pulling teeth. The facts were kept close to the chest of a privileged few.

The short answer to your question is yes, many changes you make have to be unmade to get them back to their starting point. It will continue at whatever level you set until you do so in most cases. Recon, movement bias and pestilence are three of the examples that remain at whatever level you set.

There have been a few changes in what can be set in the Event Editor. I'm not sure if they are all covered by documentation at this time. I'm sure that are some who have the information and can post it for everyone to see if they feel the urge. I don't have it myself.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to Mark Breed)
Post #: 12
RE: Event Effects - 5/28/2020 6:17:15 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11987
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Breed

Does this mean that in order to reset (i.e. bring the back to normal/initial setting) the replacement rate from say 600 to 100 that the correcting event has to set the replacement rate at 17 versus 100 (600 x 17% = 102).


Yes.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Mark Breed)
Post #: 13
RE: Event Effects - 5/28/2020 6:35:09 PM   
Mark Breed


Posts: 311
Joined: 9/4/2003
From: Orange County, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

As we have all learned, there is rarely a simple answer regarding the Event Editor. Thus the moniker, Evil Ed.

One of the problems as you are now aware is the lack of dissemination of information. Finding out how something worked used to be like pulling teeth. The facts were kept close to the chest of a privileged few.

The short answer to your question is yes, many changes you make have to be unmade to get them back to their starting point. It will continue at whatever level you set until you do so in most cases. Recon, movement bias and pestilence are three of the examples that remain at whatever level you set.

There have been a few changes in what can be set in the Event Editor. I'm not sure if they are all covered by documentation at this time. I'm sure that are some who have the information and can post it for everyone to see if they feel the urge. I don't have it myself.


Would it be possible to create a sub Forum folder for Evil Ed, where we could post these explanations? That way there would be a folder that everyone could go to looking for answers to their questions and reduce the amount of frustration.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 14
RE: Event Effects - 5/28/2020 7:53:28 PM   
Mark Breed


Posts: 311
Joined: 9/4/2003
From: Orange County, CA
Status: offline
So, if I were to post the rules for using events to manipulate the Replacement Editor it would look like this.

Evil Ed – Adjusting Replacement Rates

Setting replacement rates in the Events Editor. The replacement rate is set with a default of 100. This means that whatever rate you set in the Replacement Editor will be issued per turn based on availability. The Event Editor can adjust this rate to make replacements show up faster or slower.

Events affecting variability of replacement rates can be triggered by turn; chemical or nuclear release by a side; or, another event being triggered or cancelled.

TURN ACTIVATED ADJUSTMENTS

(1) Set Event Trigger: Turn
This means that this event will trigger on a turn designated by the Trigger Turn (see Set Variability).

(2) Set Event Effects: Replacements 1* or Replacements 2*
This determines which side’s replacement rate will be impacted. Replacements 1* means that the first player’s replacements will be affected. Replacements 2* means that the second player’s replacements will be affected.

(3) Set Trigger Turn: “1”, “2”, “3”, etc.
This identifies the turn that the event will be put into motion.

(4) Set Variability: “1” = Turn range = 1; “2” = Turn range = 2; “3” = Turn range = 3; etc.
This determine how many turns that the event may trigger. For example, if set to trigger on turn 5 with a 3 Variability (Turn range = 3), this means that the event may trigger on turn 5, 6, or 7. It will trigger on one of those three turns only (unless another event is programmed calling for this event to be triggered again).

(5) Set Event Probability: “100” = 100% Probability; “99” = 99% Probability; “98” = 98% Probability; etc.
This determines the percentage chance of the event being activated. A 100 means that the event will activate. Any number less than that means that the event may or may not occur depending on the probability.

(6) Set Replacement Multiplier: Values between “1” and “999”.
This number represents a percentage (i.e. “1” = 1%; “10” = 10%; “500” = 500%; etc.) and is displayed as “Value 20”, which means 20%. The initial default value in the system is 100, which means that 100% of the replacement rate will be available each turn until the on-hand amount is used up. So, if you want to double the replacement rate, you set the Replacement Multiplier to 200 (200%). Triple would be set at 300 (300%). This new replacement rate remains in effect until changed by a new event.

(7) Resetting the replacement rate. If you have a replacement rate of 200 and want it to go back to the default replacement rate of 100, you must set a new event with a Replacement Multiplier of 50 (200%, the current rate, x 50%, the amount the rate is to be adjusted, = 100%, the new replacement rate).

(in reply to Mark Breed)
Post #: 15
RE: Event Effects - 5/28/2020 8:47:26 PM   
MonkeysBrain2

 

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Percentage of chance that some event can be activated was brilliantly used in Daniel McBrides Braunschweig 7.1 scenario for Cow.
Well Turkey could be brought on German side if some city is captured and there was percentage of chance that few turns later Turks will join. Small percent but I got those 17 additional Turkish divisions and captured Baku. Imagination of scenario designer can bring wonders.

(in reply to Mark Breed)
Post #: 16
RE: Event Effects - 5/29/2020 1:02:51 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 3912
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

Percentage of chance that some event can be activated was brilliantly used in Daniel McBrides Braunschweig 7.1 scenario for Cow.
Well Turkey could be brought on German side if some city is captured and there was percentage of chance that few turns later Turks will join. Small percent but I got those 17 additional Turkish divisions and captured Baku. Imagination of scenario designer can bring wonders.


There is no way the Turks would have entered WW2. They were still in shock of almost having their country look like a jigsaw puzzle. They were not about to risk that again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne

This is what was narrowly avoided. They would not risk that again:




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lobster -- 5/29/2020 1:03:27 AM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to MonkeysBrain2)
Post #: 17
RE: Event Effects - 5/31/2020 8:36:32 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1586
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Breed
Would it be possible to create a sub Forum folder for Evil Ed, where we could post these explanations? That way there would be a folder that everyone could go to looking for answers to their questions and reduce the amount of frustration.


I second this suggestion, even to the point to create sub-forums (under a "SCENARIO CREATION" forum heading) e.g.

"Map Creation How-Tos"
"Researching your Scenario: Orders of Battle"
"Evil Event Engine"
"Programmed Opponent Pathing: Making a Good AI"

things like that. I've always wanted to do a "War for Texas Independence" scene,
but all of the steps involved are kind of beyond my capability.

Well, good luck with your scenario!


(in reply to Mark Breed)
Post #: 18
RE: Event Effects - 6/1/2020 1:13:12 AM   
MonkeysBrain2

 

Posts: 476
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Lobster,

Nobody's was now stating that Turkey historically couldn't enter WW2. I know that because father of Turks Kemal Pasha Ataturk who died 1938. was against it and they would not go against it's will.

But TOAW is not about history so much otherwise you would see pumping of Baku oil according of Ludendorff - Lenin agreement.
LOL people forget that Germany and Bolsheviks had secret agreements. So some people may think that after Brest-Litovsk agreement Germany in fact were considering Bplsheviks neutralized as enemy. Remember that they have moved more than million soldiers to the Western Front (late move but that is not a point). In TOAW terms Daniel opted that Bolsheviks are still enemy due to TOAW limitations. I ask how then Ludendorff and Lenin did iron out this Baku agreement if they were so much of an enemy???

Now read my original post, I was referring of actual use of events to bring Turkey into WW2 on the side of Germany. I didn't question historical possibility of that scenario. I was talking about percentage etc... I am not scenario designer so you will have to ask Daniel why he have put that event. BTW some sacrifice in historicity was done because playability and Braunschweig is great scenario.

If you want to talk about history be my guest, on the other hand I also have read everything that came way be it WW1 and WW2 or Napoleonics or World Wide History - so I am not so uneducated on that topic so be my guest and discuss it with me how much you want if you want....

TOAW as much as people want to think that it is so historically accurate, it isn't. It's an illusion right from the start because scenario designers must make compromises right from the start regarding OOB and TO and E, not to talk about more deeply about politics, diplomacy etc...

I can be also a smart ass. Usenet has taught me so and flamer if required.


Mario

< Message edited by MonkeysBrain2 -- 6/1/2020 1:30:43 AM >

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 19
RE: Event Effects - 6/1/2020 1:39:54 AM   
rhinobones

 

Posts: 1171
Joined: 2/17/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

TOAW as much as people want to think that it is so historically accurate, it isn't. It's an illusion . . .



You are so right to make the point about TOAW and its relation to historical accuracy.

As I have observed the TOAW community over the years, I see two groups of people. One group strives to make scenarios which are interesting, fun and challenging. These scenarios usually have some basis in reality but it isn’t necessarily a requirement. The other group strives for historical accuracy to the point where anality is a virtue. Most of us enjoy and appreciate the efforts of both groups. I see no need to be critical when a designer wants to provide an alternative to history.

Regards


_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to MonkeysBrain2)
Post #: 20
RE: Event Effects - 6/1/2020 3:11:32 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 3912
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

I can be also a smart ass. Usenet has taught me so and flamer if required.



WUT?? Just making historical info point. lmfao.

Many have no idea of what happened with the Ottoman Empire and how close Turkey came to being carved up or why they wouldn't join the Axis or that they did in fact join the Allies before the end of the war so they could take part in the early UN. I don't care why someone did something in a scenario. Just some historical background re Turkey and their historical whys and why nots.

Finland is another minor that was politically motivated to limit what they did on the East Front. After October their offensives stopped for political reasons and historically would have not gone any farther than they historically did regardless of what Germany did.

I like to see people looking at things and then reading up on what happened in respect to what a scenario shows. Has zero to do with you other than the quote to show why I put in the historical info.

Continuation War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#:~:text=The%20Continuation%20War%20was%20a,1944%2C%20during%20World%20War%20II.&text=By%20September%201941%2C%20Finland%20had,Karelian%20Isthmus%20and%20Ladoga%20Karelia.

It was far more likely that Spain would have entered on the Axis side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/1/2020 3:33:46 AM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to MonkeysBrain2)
Post #: 21
RE: Event Effects - 6/1/2020 5:09:58 AM   
MonkeysBrain2

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 3/3/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

I can be also a smart ass. Usenet has taught me so and flamer if required.



WUT?? Just making historical info point. lmfao.

Many have no idea of what happened with the Ottoman Empire and how close Turkey came to being carved up or why they wouldn't join the Axis or that they did in fact join the Allies before the end of the war so they could take part in the early UN. I don't care why someone did something in a scenario. Just some historical background re Turkey and their historical whys and why nots.

Finland is another minor that was politically motivated to limit what they did on the East Front. After October their offensives stopped for political reasons and historically would have not gone any farther than they historically did regardless of what Germany did.

I like to see people looking at things and then reading up on what happened in respect to what a scenario shows. Has zero to do with you other than the quote to show why I put in the historical info.

Continuation War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#:~:text=The%20Continuation%20War%20was%20a,1944%2C%20during%20World%20War%20II.&text=By%20September%201941%2C%20Finland%20had,Karelian%20Isthmus%20and%20Ladoga%20Karelia.

It was far more likely that Spain would have entered on the Axis side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II



Turkey, yes sided with Allies in FEBRUARY 1945. Ok, they stopped shipping ore in 1944. But date of entering the war is interesting FEBRUARY 1945. when Germany was on it's knees and couldn't even send few squadrons of bombers to bomb Istanbul like they did with Bucharest when Romania betrayed them :)

OK, I have maybe overreacted but as I said the original poster was asking about events not about HISTORICAL AUTHENTICITY of TOAW scenarios.

Care to explain to all of us what TOAW scenario is 100% historically true? LOL

Let me say to you that when scenario designer first start to design scenario in TOAW, history goes down the drain. We have illusion of history in TOAW, our imagination make it look better than it is.

First when they pour number of trucks into divisions or any other formation it is not 100% true because if they give each division number of trucks that they really had some division could travel around GLOBE in TOAW.

Bring John Erricson and Ziemke and Glantz into discussion I don't mind. But that was not original topic here. No need to hijack the thread or it is? Then please continue with history lesson and use of that in TOAW. And your original map is irrelevant. Because that didn't happened to Turkey. They had ATATURK, remember? I have high opinion and respect ATATURK, more than your Churchill. LOL
But that's not the point. I am not here to defend Daniel MCBride of attacks from TOAW Design Group or anyone else who is jealous on his work. He have made some spectacular TOAW scenarios and some little flaws doesn't make it any worse.


Mario



< Message edited by MonkeysBrain2 -- 6/1/2020 5:19:38 AM >

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 22
RE: Event Effects - 6/1/2020 5:18:55 AM   
MonkeysBrain2

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 3/3/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

I can be also a smart ass. Usenet has taught me so and flamer if required.



WUT?? Just making historical info point. lmfao.

Many have no idea of what happened with the Ottoman Empire and how close Turkey came to being carved up or why they wouldn't join the Axis or that they did in fact join the Allies before the end of the war so they could take part in the early UN. I don't care why someone did something in a scenario. Just some historical background re Turkey and their historical whys and why nots.

Finland is another minor that was politically motivated to limit what they did on the East Front. After October their offensives stopped for political reasons and historically would have not gone any farther than they historically did regardless of what Germany did.

I like to see people looking at things and then reading up on what happened in respect to what a scenario shows. Has zero to do with you other than the quote to show why I put in the historical info.

Continuation War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#:~:text=The%20Continuation%20War%20was%20a,1944%2C%20during%20World%20War%20II.&text=By%20September%201941%2C%20Finland%20had,Karelian%20Isthmus%20and%20Ladoga%20Karelia.

It was far more likely that Spain would have entered on the Axis side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II



Turkey, yes sided with Allies in FEBRUARY 1945. Ok, they stopped shipping ore in 1944. But date of entering the war is interesting FEBRUARY 1945. when Germany was on it's knees and couldn't even send few squadrons of bombers to bomb Istanbul like they did with Bucharest when Romania betrayed them :)

OK, I have maybe overreacted but as I said the original poster was asking about events not about HISTORICAL AUTHENTICITY of TOAW scenarios.

Care to explain to all of us what TOAW scenario is 100% historically true? LOL

Let me say to you that when scenario designer first start to design scenario in TOAW, history goes down the drain. We have illusion of history in TOAW, our imagination make it look better than it is.

First when they pour number of trucks into divisions or any other formation it is not 100% true because if they give each division number of trucks that they really had some division could travel around GLOBE in TOAW.

Bring John Erricson and Ziemke and Glantz into discussion I don't mind. But that was not original topic here. No need to hijack the thread or it is? Then please continue with history lesson and use of that in TOAW. And your original map is irrelevant. Because that didn't happened to Turkey. They had ATATURK, remember? I have high opinion and respect ATATURK, more than your Churchill. LOL
But that's not the point. I am not here to defend Daniel MCBride of attacks from TOAW Design Group or anyone else who is jealous on his work. He have made some spectacular TOAW scenarios and some little flaws doesn't make it any worse.



Mario




(in reply to MonkeysBrain2)
Post #: 23
RE: Event Effects - 6/1/2020 5:23:31 AM   
MonkeysBrain2

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 3/3/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: MonkeysBrain2

I can be also a smart ass. Usenet has taught me so and flamer if required.



WUT?? Just making historical info point. lmfao.

Many have no idea of what happened with the Ottoman Empire and how close Turkey came to being carved up or why they wouldn't join the Axis or that they did in fact join the Allies before the end of the war so they could take part in the early UN. I don't care why someone did something in a scenario. Just some historical background re Turkey and their historical whys and why nots.

Finland is another minor that was politically motivated to limit what they did on the East Front. After October their offensives stopped for political reasons and historically would have not gone any farther than they historically did regardless of what Germany did.

I like to see people looking at things and then reading up on what happened in respect to what a scenario shows. Has zero to do with you other than the quote to show why I put in the historical info.

Continuation War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#:~:text=The%20Continuation%20War%20was%20a,1944%2C%20during%20World%20War%20II.&text=By%20September%201941%2C%20Finland%20had,Karelian%20Isthmus%20and%20Ladoga%20Karelia.

It was far more likely that Spain would have entered on the Axis side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II



Turkey, yes sided with Allies in FEBRUARY 1945. Ok, they stopped shipping ore in 1944. But date of entering the war is interesting FEBRUARY 1945. when Germany was on it's knees and couldn't even send few squadrons of bombers to bomb Istanbul like they did with Bucharest when Romania betrayed them :)

OK, I have maybe overreacted but as I said the original poster was asking about events not about HISTORICAL AUTHENTICITY of TOAW scenarios.

Care to explain to all of us what TOAW scenario is 100% historically true? LOL

Let me say to you that when scenario designer first start to design scenario in TOAW, history goes down the drain. We have illusion of history in TOAW, our imagination make it look better than it is.

First when they pour number of trucks into divisions or any other formation it is not 100% true because if they give each division number of trucks that they really had some division could travel around GLOBE in TOAW.

Bring John Erricson and Ziemke and Glantz into discussion I don't mind. But that was not original topic here. No need to hijack the thread or it is? Then please continue with history lesson and use of that in TOAW. And your original map is irrelevant. Because that didn't happened to Turkey. They had ATATURK, remember? I have high opinion and respect ATATURK, more than your Churchill. Who was courting Turkey all the time to enter the war in 1943! Not in 1945 when war was almost over! LOL
But that's not the point. I am not here to defend Daniel MCBride of attacks from TOAW Design Group or anyone else who is jealous on his work. He have made some spectacular TOAW scenarios and some little flaws doesn't make it any worse.


Mario

PS. And in anyway Turkey would rather be on the side of Germany THAN Stalins Russia. That's was maybe Daniel argument to have a little chance to bring Turkey against Russia they archenemy. And balance of the scenario. Scenarios is pro Soviet and hard to play as Germany, very hard.




(in reply to MonkeysBrain2)
Post #: 24
RE: Event Effects - 6/1/2020 5:34:21 AM   
MonkeysBrain2

 

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Until 1941, both Roosevelt and Churchill thought that continued Turkish neutrality would serve the interests of the Allies by blocking the Axis from reaching the strategic oil reserves of the Middle East. But the early victories of the Axis up to the end of 1942 caused Roosevelt and Churchill to re-evaluate a possible Turkish participation in the war on the side of the Allies. Turkey had maintained a decently-sized Army and Air Force throughout the war, and Churchill wanted the Turks to open a new front in the Balkans. Roosevelt, on the other hand, still believed that a Turkish attack would be too risky. İnönü knew very well the hardships which his country had suffered during 11 years of incessant war between 1911 and 1922 and was determined to keep Turkey out of another war as long as he could. İnönü also wanted assurances on financial and military aid for Turkey, as well as a guarantee that the United States and the United Kingdom would stand beside Turkey in case of a Soviet invasion of the Turkish Straits after the war.

In April 1944, Turkey halted its sales of Chromite to Germany, and broke off relations in August. Turkey declared war on the Axis powers in February, 1945, after the Allies made its invitation to the inaugural meeting of the United Nations (along with the invitations of several other nations) conditional on full belligerency. No Turkish troops ever saw combat.
.............

Ok this is from Wikipedia.

Since you have brought the TOPIC of Turkey and history here. So you did read Colonel Seaton book Russo-German War?
And what Stalin asked to join Axis???

Well, Russian had this aspiration of Turkish Strait for couple of hundreds of years.

Even British foreign policy in 19th century centered on KEEPING Russians away from straits! Read Castles of Steel for example...

So in fact, Turkey DID joined Allies because they have CHICKENED out of Russia!

One or more Russian armies were parked in southern Bulgaria looking upon Turkey! If you didn't know that. In 1945!

That's why Turkey entered the war on the side of the Allies, not because they were anti German but because they were frightened of Russia!

It would be strange for Russia to attack Turkey after they joined the Allies, eh????
Next time for the historical authenticity, include that.



Mario







< Message edited by MonkeysBrain2 -- 6/1/2020 5:44:22 AM >

(in reply to MonkeysBrain2)
Post #: 25
RE: Event Effects - 6/1/2020 5:52:38 AM   
MonkeysBrain2

 

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And one more case of Turkey participating on the side of Central Powers in 1914.

Read "Dreadnoughts" for example, how British has seized 2 Turkish Dreadnoughts and promised to pay Turkey 5000 GBP weekly until the end of war or something like that and to give them 2 new ships after the war.

That was perfidious.

Yes, maybe Turkey would anyway join Central Powers because of Berlin-Baghdad railroad and financial ties with Germany etc...
But, Churchill was acting there like for me very negative character in this case for seizing Turkish ships that Turkey already paid for! NO EXCUSE FOR THAT FOR YOUR MR. CHURCHILL!

(in reply to MonkeysBrain2)
Post #: 26
RE: Event Effects - 6/1/2020 9:43:46 AM   
MonkeysBrain2

 

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I played Braunschweig LONG LONG time ago. 15 years ago. So I've read DOC file again. That scenario have many other WHAT IFs.
I recommend others to read it as well.

So this is deliberate design which includes many other what ifs like employment of Dietl mountain division, 1 Falshirmajaeger division, almost all 11th Army (instead of going to Leningrad).. etc, etc...

Turkish involvement was strictly limited to Caucasus. No declaration of war to Britain, or USA. Just action to protect Muslim minorities in the Caucasus. And Russians get some USA and UK air units...

So this is strictly WHAT IF scenario, it is not based on hard historical facts. An all out German effort there.

I forgot that I admit.

But you have also obviously didn't read DOC of that scenario or played it. So your first post with that map was also completely out of picture. OK, maybe I have overreacted but let's close this discussion, or continue as you will.

So, I repeat as a WHAT IF scenario it is entirely legal to portray conflict as some desires even if that means bringing Turkey against USSR and on the side of Germany (but strictly in Caucasus). In the notes there is part that Turkey would not attack UK or USA if they are not firstly attacked. Perfectly legal for what if scenario.

I admit that I forgot DOC notes and what this scenario tries to do, I have played it against Raver 15 years ago and won, and wrote and AAR. But that was so long that I forgot that it is WHAT IF.

What is your excuse? You din't obviously played it or read DOCs but have brought this to some political debate about Turkey and WW2. Suit yourself.

In the end - Daniel McBride is best scenario designer ever for TOAW, and this discussion will not change anything in that regard. You on the other hand had tried to minimize this so either you are jealous on Daniel McBride or I don't know.
But next time it would be good that you are also better informed what is WHAT IF scenario or scenario that tries to be historically as correct as possible.



Mario

(in reply to MonkeysBrain2)
Post #: 27
RE: Event Effects - 6/1/2020 12:52:10 PM   
Lobster


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What if the Japanese Kwangtung army moved against the Soviets in 1941 would have been one to put in too. Much more likely than the Turks.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/1/2020 12:53:42 PM >


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(in reply to MonkeysBrain2)
Post #: 28
RE: Event Effects - 6/1/2020 1:28:29 PM   
Lobster


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If Spain had entered the war on the side of the Axis Gibraltar would have been lost. Malta likely would have been taken. The Italians and Germans would have a better supply line to North Africa. The U.K. in North Africa would have been in more trouble. Spain entering on the side of the Axis would be a very interesting event. It would even have ramifications on the Eastern Front.

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(in reply to MonkeysBrain2)
Post #: 29
RE: Event Effects - 6/1/2020 2:05:01 PM   
Lobster


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An event for the East Front that's about as likely as a Turkish intervention is giving the Germans some Ukranian units. I've only seen that once, SPI War in the East. And if someone is going that far then might as well throw in some units from the Baltic nations too. At least they actually did fight against the Soviets.

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(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 30
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