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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/24/2020 4:00:53 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


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You realize the mech corps improve over time? By 1943 soviet mech corps are better than all other mech corps in the game.

So you have to make strategic decisions on units.

Firearms-Guns-Art-Tanks

Soviet 1941 mech 4-2-2-2
Soviet late 1942 mech 4-3-3-3

everyone else mech 4-3-2-2

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/24/2020 4:15:13 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Been playtesting this solo hot seat. Very pleased with the new rifle corps. Now it is possible for the Soviets to fight it out on the frontier for 2-3 turns. You end up losing about thirty of these suckers in the process (including all the garbage 20% ones) but the Sovs can pick up some experience in the process and slow down the German war machine.

The 35% new construction ones in the rear can be brought up to 4 CV after they are upgraded to 41 assault tech and are excellent in swamps, freeing up rifle armies for duty elsewhere.

I spammed a bunch of these things. The only thing I am disbanding now are the initial mech corps (not the armor corps,) and I end up with a much smaller mobile force of about 12 units prewar, but they are all 30%+ experience and fairly tough.

The Soviets can approach 2k strength in total ground forces prewar, depending on when the Germans invade. And I hope this build and defense will discourage mud offensives and get the Germans to wait until at least May and some clear weather. Attacking the new rifle corps in inclement weather very difficult.


Thank you for sharing your Russian build strategy Flaviusx. Are you willing to share a little more? The Russians start with 3 armor corps, so if you disband all your mech I assume that means you try to build a mix of 9 additional armor and mech before Barbarossa. I further assume you don't build any additional HQS. But do you build any additional air units, especially Ground Attack? Do you build any AA? Do you build any supply trucks? How much production do you try and save to build armies for after Barbarossa?

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/24/2020 4:25:58 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

You realize the mech corps improve over time? By 1943 soviet mech corps are better than all other mech corps in the game.

So you have to make strategic decisions on units.

Firearms-Guns-Art-Tanks

Soviet 1941 mech 4-2-2-2
Soviet late 1942 mech 4-3-3-3

everyone else mech 4-3-2-2


I don't think Flavius has anything against Mech units in general. He just thinks the Russians are better off if they disband the 20% experience mech corps they start with and use the cashed in production and manpower to build more Infantry corps, Mech corps and Armor corps all with 35% experience. I don't know if he is right or not, I guess time will tell.

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/24/2020 5:26:36 PM   
Flaviusx


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I beef up the mech forces over the winter of 1941. I think during Barbarossa it is more cost effective to have lots and lots and lots of infantry.

My pre Barbarossa build order does allow for about a dozen tank/mech corps. The disbanded mech corps are reformed as 35% experience units. This results in fewer of them, but they are twice as strong. With 2 tech advances, they end up being 8 point units and can hold the line. The Soviets start with 3 armor corps at 30% and these I judge to be reasonably effective and don't disband those.

In 1941 given the low mobility of these units, they can do very little more than hold the line and perhaps occasionally counterattack. I like to put them in places like the Smolensk corridor to cover the clear terrain. That's a good choke point for them.

20% experience mech corps are junk and as a German player I make it a point to chase those down and kill them outright if they appear on the front line -- they are not going to survive to get the experience. This is much harder to do when they are at 35%.

I'd much rather harvest the production from those trash mech corps and reform them into more effective units, even if there are fewer of them.

You really don't need more than about 15 mobile corps as the Soviets anyways. More than that is nice, but not essential. What *is* essential is infantry and lots of it. A huge mass of pre war rifle corps can cover the front and buy time for the rifle armies to show up, and also make use of Soviet manpower and helps avoid manpower problems down the line. Manpower constraints will cripple the Red Army, and the game mechanics are such that either you use this prewar manpower or lose it, it doesn't stack past the cap. So the rifle corps hold extra manpower as buckets.

I've put a lot of thought into this, believe me. Getting the Red Army right is the hardest thing to do in this game. The other powers are much simpler to manage. I have satisfactory build orders for the rest of them, but Red Army has always given me problems until these rifle corps got fixed up.

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Post #: 34
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/24/2020 5:38:37 PM   
Flaviusx


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Also, I do buy 3 more HQs. 2 of those help provide command on the front line, the third is held in reserve by Moscow for contingencies. Eventually you get another HQ when Zhukov arrives. That should be enough to see you through the war.

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/24/2020 5:44:24 PM   
Richard III


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Sounds like one of your considered posts way back on WITE (sincere complement meant )

On the other side, can you get to Moscow as the Axis VS the AI ? In my games the AI seems pretty decent, starting to make intelligent counter attacks, I am always screwed by the weather tho.

You VS a decent PBEM opponent ?

Thanks & Regards
Rich

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/24/2020 5:53:12 PM   
Flaviusx


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The AI is child's play for either side. The real challenge is PBEM. Or, for testing purposes, I hotseat both sides. It's been a few months since I did PBEM I've been waiting for the game to improve to a point where I was ready to get back into PBEM and that point is probably now. I think the game is just about balanced now, before in PBEM I think it was biased in favor of the Axis for various reasons. Frankly, I still think naval invasions are a bit too freewheeling in this game, but it's been toned down some. For a while there it was basically impossible to stop Sea Lion and that's when I stopped doing PBEM until a series of changes to both the naval and air systems were made. In the old versions of the game airpower was basically an I win button, and that's been considerably reduced, thank goodness.

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/24/2020 5:58:55 PM   
ncc1701e


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It's time to bring Michael T. back...

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Post #: 38
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/26/2020 9:05:37 AM   
LiquidSky


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Rather then disband and rebuild the Mech, I used it against the Finns. It is very good as a garrison, as the Finns can't really attack them even when they are crappy...and I could build up experience with them by attacking the finns with them (the 20%-ers die, and are replaced by better recruits).

And in an emergency I could rail a few of them out...and their were a few emergencies. Now, at the end of '42, they are all on the front line.

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Post #: 39
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/26/2020 10:47:59 AM   
Flaviusx


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Last time I played the Germans my opponent tried to do this mech thing in Finland.

I just sent a panzer corps there to assist the Finns and trashed the trash mech corps. They quit Finland real fast after that. Not impressed with this strat. Once that was done, the panzer corps transferred by sea to join forces attacking Leningrad.

What I do with the Soviets in Finland is ignore it. They can't take Leningrad. There's two choke points on the Svir river that can be held with ease even with rifle corps, and a couple of more rifle corps can prevent easy access to the Murmansk rail line. Set it and forget it. The logistics up here aren't great for the Axis once you get into Karelia proper.

Very late in the war when you are serious about knocking out the Finns you'll need to reinforce it, but until then it is a backwater.






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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/26/2020 12:46:04 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

It's time to bring Michael T. back...


I tried but failed

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/26/2020 3:06:46 PM   
Flaviusx


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Well, that's a shame he won't give it another go. I can understand his frustration, the game has its issues, but it is also massively improved since release and imo most of the really bad problems have been resolved since then. It's just about in a sweet spot now.

It just needed some time to polish off the rougher edges. It's always like this with these sorts of games, you have to be patient. The underlying game engine itself is solid.

I'm still not entirely happy with naval invasions, tbh. But it isn't a deal killer for me at this stage.

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/26/2020 5:36:03 PM   
sillyflower


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I agree with all your points. Since WiTE, I have never bought games when they 1st come out, but wait for them to bed down, which is why I'm a relative newcomer to this game.Still, if I had applied that philosophy to WiTE, I would still just be waiting patiently................but Morvael has been doing a lot of excellent work.

What has impressed me most with warplan is the speed as well as quality of the improvements: astonishing from a solo dev.

I will try Michael again soon - we correspond regularly even when there isn't any cricket.

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Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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Post #: 43
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/26/2020 6:33:09 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


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I really appreciate all of you making the game better. Even if I don't use your idea or agree with it often it leads to other ideas.

At times I am sure you might think a non-implementation of an idea is wrong but I have to evaluate things on many levels. But there are things in the game I don't like that I put in for players.

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Post #: 44
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/26/2020 8:06:41 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

At times I am sure you might think a non-implementation of an idea is wrong but I have to evaluate things on many levels. But there are things in the game I don't like that I put in for players.


I recently saw (I left the film before its end) a stupid movie about nazi on the other side of the moon that were trying to invade Earth with UFO. The guy was drunk when he has wrote this. Could be a great addition to this game?

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Post #: 45
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/26/2020 9:07:31 PM   
sillyflower


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Let's hope sveint doesn't read your post. He will probably try it in my game

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

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Post #: 46
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/26/2020 9:20:46 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Let's hope sveint doesn't read your post. He will probably try it in my game


LOL

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/30/2020 5:30:40 AM   
ncc1701e


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One question, playing Europe 1939 in PBEM (started without the patched scenario alas). Is it logical to see that the Forming Russian armies in the Deployment queue are coming with 30% experience?
I would have expected 35%.

Here are their statistics:




Attachment (1)

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/30/2020 5:51:09 AM   
Flaviusx


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I assume the logic here is that these are reservists with some minor penalty on their experience level. More significant, imo, is the tech level being stuck at 39 assault. If it was up to me, I'd have those reserves deploy at whatever the prevailing tech level is (usually 41 assault.)

The Soviets piled up plenty of first class equipment for their reserves in 41. That well didn't run dry until nearly the end of the year.

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/30/2020 5:52:40 AM   
ncc1701e


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Yeah, reading the post of Alvaro about this, I would have expected 35%.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Ok so this is what I did. This will delay beta to official for 1 week. I have to test this myself.

All Cavalry are now 3-1-2 firepower, guns, artillery
Soviet large corps are now 120pp, 3-2-2 (vs 4-2-2 Armies which haven't changed
Removal of the +10% finnish gain... all Soviet new units are at 35% experience starting


The current 20% experience units stay where they are.

This should remove micromanaging min-maxxing which is currently required to maximize defense.

What this should do is make it cost effective to build the large corps but also allow the choice of the USSR on how to spend it's money balancing force size with saving money. I tend to agree the game slightly favors the Axis at the moment. It is balanced but the Axis seem easier to play. The Allies really need good resource/unit management in building the right quantities of naval, air, and land forces to achieve victory. Personally I find this a real challenge and quite fun.

I will be uploading the new beta sometime today.




< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 5/30/2020 5:53:49 AM >


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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/30/2020 5:54:56 AM   
Flaviusx


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New Soviet units means new construction, not reservists.

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/30/2020 6:25:59 AM   
ncc1701e


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I see. About the Advancements level of the "reservists", I already asked. Alvaro answer is here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4801265

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Post #: 52
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/30/2020 7:39:35 AM   
Flaviusx


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Yeah, I don't really agree with that explanation he gave. At the very least, it is incomplete. The initial wave of reserve armies raised in July and August were well equipped. Now, later on, those reserve armies got worse and by the end of the year they were pretty garbage.

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/30/2020 4:51:23 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


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Well see how the game balance is. That is the most important.

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Post #: 54
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/30/2020 6:24:00 PM   
Richard III


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Well see how the game balance is. That is the most important.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You said it ! IMO the AI game ( where about 70+% of your audience is ) has already been seriously unbalanced in favor of the Russian Player through " fixing " the PBEM game balance.

This rebalancing ( among other stuff ) broke WITP AE, WITE and several of the JTS Operational Games, to name few.

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RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/30/2020 7:01:19 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

You said it ! IMO the AI game ( where about 70+% of your audience is ) has already been seriously unbalanced in favor of the Russian Player through " fixing " the PBEM game balance.

This rebalancing ( among other stuff ) broke WITP AE, WITE and several of the JTS Operational Games, to name few.


Sorry, could you be a little more specific?

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Post #: 56
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/30/2020 7:07:37 PM   
Flaviusx


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The AI is trivial and I very much doubt the addition of these rifle corps broke the game. I could beat the AI as the Axis on the highest possible setting even before this patch. Or as the allies, for that matter.

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Post #: 57
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/30/2020 8:36:08 PM   
sveint


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Well see how the game balance is. That is the most important.


Personally I am worried that we are making the Soviets too strong.
And I almost always complain about the opposite!

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Post #: 58
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/31/2020 1:15:37 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint
Personally I am worried that we are making the Soviets too strong.
And I almost always complain about the opposite!


If the Soviets aren't capable of causing the Axis land army real harm starting in 1943, the end game will always favor the axis. The allies will only ever be able to land an army of about 450 points in France due to supply limitations of the port supply system.

So if the Soviets aren't tearing into axis ground units and destroying a lot of units every turn the axis will always be too strong to overcome in the end game. Germany needs to be on the ropes by 1944 for the allies to have any chance of pushing inland with their small army of just 450 points.

Jim

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Post #: 59
RE: Soviet Rifle Corps - 5/31/2020 3:21:32 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


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The recent game I had as the Allies it came down to the very last turn and the very last city. It was very exciting. And that is what I am hoping for in all the games.

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