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USA Entry - 5/18/2020 6:47:24 PM   
canuckgamer

 

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In my PBEM game, the Axis went for the All France strategy. Last turn it was January 2 1942 and France is still holding Algiers. The Axis finally got around to invading USSR last turn. I assume they did it to avoid the Russian winter effects as not many of their units entered Russia.

The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor yet the Yanks are only at 52% for entry in to the war. At the same time they are already sending lend lease to the Russians. Shouldn't Pear Harbor trigger their entry in to the war? What gives?

The Yanks have also deployed a sub and I'm not sure if I should move it out of port in case it delays their entry. A Yank CV also appeared last turn and not sure if I should leave port with it as well.
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RE: USA Entry - 5/18/2020 8:17:21 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Hi

I think if we made it that Japan attacking Pearl Harbor automatically leads to the US entering the war against Germany and Italy, then it would not only be historically incorrect (Hitler was the one who declared war on the USA) but also it would mean that the USA would always enter the war in December 1941, which might not be desirable?

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RE: USA Entry - 5/18/2020 9:07:04 PM   
canuckgamer

 

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Thank you for the reply. I am aware that Hitler declared war on the USA which was a huge relief to Churchill and England. However the attack on Pearl Harbor guaranteed a declaration of war on Japan so how is this handled in SC WAW? Is the USA at war with Japan but not with Germany? This might be just as unrealistic.

I am thinking that in our current game, the fact that France has not yet been conquered is a factor.

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RE: USA Entry - 5/18/2020 9:34:42 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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I agree Canuck, Pearl Harbor should result in the US entering. At least a 50 -75% chance.

Why its Jan '42 and US mobilization is 52% I have no idea. Your opponent is either investing heavily in USA diplo or you are making very poor US mobilization decisions.




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RE: USA Entry - 5/18/2020 9:45:47 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Sorry, mixed up the games.

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 5/18/2020 9:50:38 PM >


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RE: USA Entry - 5/18/2020 10:35:41 PM   
canuckgamer

 

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I'm not sure what you would consider poor US mobilization decisions. Before they are in the war you can't use any of their points for diplomacy. I didn't move any units from mainland USA including the DD and CV that came on as reinforcements because that impacts their entry. Please clarify.

I think what is really unrealistic is that after Pearl Harbor, the USA is still at 52%. Germany, Japan and Italy signed the Tripartite Pact. One of the key features was that if any of the three countries was attacked by a country not yet in the war they would come to the aid of that country. This is why Hitler immediately declared war on the USA. So wouldn't it be more realistic that once Japan attacked the USA and the USA was at war with Japan that the USA would join the Allies?

My opinion is that historically, even if Hitler had not immediately declared war on the USA they would have joined the Allies shortly anyway.

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RE: USA Entry - 5/19/2020 8:29:30 AM   
FOARP

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer

I'm not sure what you would consider poor US mobilization decisions. Before they are in the war you can't use any of their points for diplomacy. I didn't move any units from mainland USA including the DD and CV that came on as reinforcements because that impacts their entry. Please clarify.

I think what is really unrealistic is that after Pearl Harbor, the USA is still at 52%. Germany, Japan and Italy signed the Tripartite Pact. One of the key features was that if any of the three countries was attacked by a country not yet in the war they would come to the aid of that country. This is why Hitler immediately declared war on the USA. So wouldn't it be more realistic that once Japan attacked the USA and the USA was at war with Japan that the USA would join the Allies?

My opinion is that historically, even if Hitler had not immediately declared war on the USA they would have joined the Allies shortly anyway.


Seems like there should be an Axis decision on whether or not to declare war on the USA in December 1941, with mobilisation cost if you decide not to. The AI can be set to take this 75% of the time.

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RE: USA Entry - 5/19/2020 11:45:20 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer

I'm not sure what you would consider poor US mobilization decisions. Before they are in the war you can't use any of their points for diplomacy. I didn't move any units from mainland USA including the DD and CV that came on as reinforcements because that impacts their entry. Please clarify.

I think what is really unrealistic is that after Pearl Harbor, the USA is still at 52%. Germany, Japan and Italy signed the Tripartite Pact. One of the key features was that if any of the three countries was attacked by a country not yet in the war they would come to the aid of that country. This is why Hitler immediately declared war on the USA. So wouldn't it be more realistic that once Japan attacked the USA and the USA was at war with Japan that the USA would join the Allies?

My opinion is that historically, even if Hitler had not immediately declared war on the USA they would have joined the Allies shortly anyway.



Again, I agree on Pearl Harbor. At least there should be a 50 - 75% chance the US enters no matter what their mobilization is. In one of the updates US mobilization changed and now its as likely the US will enter in Jan/Feb '42 as Dec 7, this shouldn't be.


That being said if your US mob in Jan '42 is 52% either your opponent is investing in US diplo (and you aren't) or you aren't optimizing US diplo in your decisions.

Read below (some have probably changed over time)

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4410258&mpage=1&key=�


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RE: USA Entry - 5/19/2020 3:29:30 PM   
canuckgamer

 

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Thanks for the info on triggers. All I can say is WOW, the developers have really screwed U.S. entry up. The only trigger I see left is the surrender of France at 10-12% which means the U.S. may never enter the war. Absolutely ridiculous! As for spending on diplomacy, why would GB spend something like 175 PP for one chit that produces a 5% chance of success and how can they afford it in 1939 - 42?

You are absolutely right, Pearl Harbor should be 50-75%.

Again I repeat my point about the Tripartite Pact. Also my question about how this works in WAW.

This may be the last game of WIE that my friend and I play.

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RE: USA Entry - 5/19/2020 6:26:54 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Just to add some clarifications here, the way the game is designed is to take into account player actions as well as balance that within the overall historical context.

With this in mind, if we were to always have the US join the Allies on or near December 7th due to the historical attack on Pearl Harbor, it would:

A) be a-historical as Bill mentioned since Germany declared war on the US.

B) potentially disregard any player actions, outcomes, surrenders, declarations of war, liberations, diplomacy, aggressions and so on up until that point.

C) potentially lead to numerous complaints mainly because of A) and B) above.


* * *


For A), the German player can still honour the Tripartite Pact and declare war on the US, this hasn't changed, and we leave it up to the German player to decide to do so. If they do not, we do take this into account in game as US mobilization will continue to rise and even more so starting in 1942 and eventually the US will join the war on its own. Under typical historical game play this usually leads to the US joining in late December 1941, or early 1942 such as January. There is some variability here but it typically falls within that range under normal game circumstances.

For B), if the Axis have played less aggressively, for example declared war on fewer countries, have made less of an advance on the various fronts, then US interest in the war is reflected in this and it can push back or delay US entry accordingly. But again, this is not indefinite and eventually the US will still enter the war. Long answer short here is that the game tries to take these divergences from history into account as is applicable.

As mentioned above, if an Axis player was interested in trying out a strategy of less aggression and playing differently than what happened historically, we try to have the game recognize this, and if the game always has the US enter the war on December 11th, then there is essentially no point in ever playing any differently, or ever considering alternative facts on the ground from a particular game. For example, and in the opposite direction, an Axis Sealion may have the US enter the war earlier than the historical date, which would also be potentially lost if we just have the US always enter against Germany on December 11th.

In agreement with Bill, I too would ask if this is what players really want?


< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 5/19/2020 6:33:53 PM >


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RE: USA Entry - 5/19/2020 6:30:21 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer

Thanks for the info on triggers. All I can say is WOW, the developers have really screwed U.S. entry up. The only trigger I see left is the surrender of France at 10-12% which means the U.S. may never enter the war. Absolutely ridiculous! As for spending on diplomacy, why would GB spend something like 175 PP for one chit that produces a 5% chance of success and how can they afford it in 1939 - 42?

You are absolutely right, Pearl Harbor should be 50-75%.

Again I repeat my point about the Tripartite Pact. Also my question about how this works in WAW.

This may be the last game of WIE that my friend and I play.



Not having France surrender will have some impact and delay US entry, but starting in 1942 they will continue to move towards full mobilization and eventually enter the war against Germany, albeit a while later than December 11th.

In terms of the Tripartite Pact, you could always ask your opponent to honour it and declare war on the US if this is the concern here?

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RE: USA Entry - 5/19/2020 7:46:48 PM   
Rannug61


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I played 70+ games and parhaps 1 or 2 games had the US neutral in early 42 so this isn't a big problem or no problem at all. I think that seeing the Axis attacking Be(Ne)Lux in the fall of 39 and taking Paris in early May is a bigger problem. It takes a very good player to do this but it's not realistic and ruins the game. I been subjekt to this a few times, against better players then me but it just don't feel right.

< Message edited by Rannug61 -- 5/19/2020 7:48:39 PM >


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RE: USA Entry - 5/19/2020 9:42:46 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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I've played probably 150 games (all as Allies) and since the changes to US diplo I've seen the US enter in '42 multiple times. Against skilled Axis players its more probable that the US enters in '42 than not. If both sides optimize US diplo the net result isn't DEC 7.

I optimize US mobilization in all my DE's.

The only possibly questionable DE is the first Irish ports DE which I accept.

#NAME= The British Occupation of Irish Ports Causes Anger in some quarters (USA->Axis)
#POPUP= The British Occupation of Irish Ports Causes Some Anger In The USA
#LINK= 124[1] UK: Demand Ireland Provides Access to the Treaty Ports? = YES
#TRIGGER= 100
#DATE= 1939/10/25
;4-6% mobilization increase towards Axis
; UK politically aligned with Allies and not surrendered


I also usually attack Syria.

That's just how the game works, not the end of the game by any means.

I do understand canucks frustration and think there should be a 50% possibility that US enters on DEC 7 no matter what. This is what actually happened after all.




< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 5/19/2020 9:46:13 PM >

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RE: USA Entry - 5/20/2020 2:29:22 AM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Thanks for the additional feedback and if you could highlight about when in 1942 that would be helpful? e.g. around what month etc.



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RE: USA Entry - 5/20/2020 11:23:51 AM   
Fafnir

 

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With luck on diplomacy and careful play of the Axis the US can be kept easily out of the war until mid 42.
I think there should be a final date the US should join regardless of its mobilization.
Sometime around Feb. 42 would be good, since this gives a benefit for the diplomacy effort but does
the US enable to enter the war before USSR is mostly beaten.


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RE: USA Entry - 5/20/2020 12:08:39 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fafnir

With luck on diplomacy and careful play of the Axis the US can be kept easily out of the war until mid 42.
I think there should be a final date the US should join regardless of its mobilization.
Sometime around Feb. 42 would be good, since this gives a benefit for the diplomacy effort but does
the US enable to enter the war before USSR is mostly beaten.





Agreed.

If my Axis opponent optimizes Mobilization (no DOW on Belgium/ Greece etc) the US usually enters in Feb '42 (I stipulate No Major Country diplo in all my games.). The same people have SU mobilization <25% (no Lithuania) prior to '41. It should be said that these are very aggressive players, they are in no way slow walking the Axis attack.

Feb 42 is still manageable for Allies (long turn lengths), mid '42 would be a big problem.

Someone (Taxman??) should easily be able to calculate US entering average, max & min when both sides optimize.

Hubert/Bill I think the DEC 7 issue is more cosmetic, that is newer players like Canuck seeing no US entry on Dec 7 getting annoyed and bagging the game. If you've been playing a long time you understand this is just part of the game.

Having the possibility of US entry (say 25-50%) on DEC 7 with a Feb '42 max would not completely negate US mobilization decisions. If US mobilization is low before DEC 7 US research and troop strength will be greatly reduced thus lowering the US initial impact.




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RE: USA Entry - 5/21/2020 1:01:40 AM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Thanks everyone and I can say that Bill and I are reviewing and discussing.

It's a fair point that that the experience from a new player against a veteran that massages all the events, declarations of war, diplomacy to maximize effect may potentially turn off a new player, however, in this case it sounds like canuckgamer is playing a friend and in his game France has not yet surrendered by the time of Barbarossa. Neither of which I would think would play a part here if this is the concern.

In terms of having the US enter, even at a reduced chance, automatically on Dec 7th, would also likely be problematic. Generally speaking, from experience we've never found arbitrary events like this to ever go over well for the majority of players. Some will like it for sure, but we tend to always get flak unless it is clearly reasoned out.

We also have to keep in mind that the game has been along these lines for over 3 and half years, and major changes never go over well unless we have a really good reason to do so. Last thing we want is for players to throw their arms up in the air because no matter how they play the US has a chance to enter into the war on December 7th, and worse, now potentially at random regardless of game play.

At the same time, we evolve as needed, e.g. the game does get tweaked as needed, I think it is fair to say we have a pretty good track record of this as we never sit back in awe of the game as a monument to perfection, and I would say that our primary concern/takeaway here is not that the US doesn't automatically join on December 7th, but that it could potentially join too late, as highlighted above by some of the feedback, and that is not good for game balance at all.

Potentially addressing that concern would be more paramount I think than anything else as it keeps the game familiar and within our design philosophy of action/reaction, and the players that have learned to play the game in a way to keep US interest low can continue to play this way, but ideally the US still joins before it is too late etc.

Continued feedback is important as we never want to rush on a decision either, unintended consequences have also stung us in the past as well. So keep it coming!

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RE: USA Entry - 5/31/2020 7:42:57 PM   
vonRocko

 

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I really don't see a problem here, and feel that nothing should be changed. Just my opinion.

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RE: USA Entry - 6/1/2020 12:22:23 AM   
dhucul2011

 

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Sorry Canuck but you are wrong about the Triparite Pact. As Japan had attacked the USA, Germany and Italy were under no obligation to attack the USA. Hitler did so out of frustration at US escorts of Allied shipping and their support for UK and used it for propoganda. If he had not done so it could have been quite some time for the USA to enter into the European war.

The Axis AI should have a check to see if he does in December 1941 though.

< Message edited by dhucul2011 -- 6/1/2020 12:24:50 AM >

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RE: USA Entry - 6/1/2020 8:06:32 AM   
The Land

 

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I can't remember if this is what the game does already or not, but surely the answer is for the US to gain mobilisation on Dec 7 1941?

You don't want a situation where regardless of what the players do, the USA will always enter in Dec 41. There's no point having a diplomacy and event system if you then completely override it with a fixed historical date. This is a game that can depart from history significantly. If the Axis player is forgoing invading Belgium and the Netherlands and France is somehow still in the game, then they have foregone a lot of MPP to try to keep the US out...

Equally you don't really want that date to have no impact on the game at all.

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RE: USA Entry - 6/3/2020 7:28:32 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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The issue with the game is that if both sides optimize US mobilization the US generally enters January or February '42. IMO if both sides optimize the US should enter on December 7. I don't think anyone is looking for a hard entry date.

Fafnir's point was its possible to push US entry to mid '42 which shouldn't be possible. Say the latest the US could entry would be Feb '42.

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