Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

The Italian East African Squadron

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> The War Room >> The Italian East African Squadron Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
The Italian East African Squadron - 5/9/2020 7:17:32 AM   
Courtenay


Posts: 3775
Joined: 11/12/2008
Status: offline
I present to you a new tactic I just came up with: The Italian East African Squadron; or, a way to grossly abuse the WiF supply and naval repair rules for fun and profit.

If you are not going to war immediately with Italy, consider moving a few ships or submarines into the Red Sea and/or the Indian Ocean. In return to base, send them to Eritea or Italian Somaliland. What good does that do? As soon as war begins with the CW, the Suez canal closes, and the units are completely out of supply.

When your opponent points this out, smile at him: . Move the ships out to sea zones with Allied CPs in them. The crewmembers of the cargo ships will wave at the Italians as they sail past, as the Italians will be disorganized from being out of supply and can't do anything to them. The Italians wave back. At the end of the turn, the Italian ships stay at sea, moving down a box. One does not have to trace a supply line to reorganize ships at sea or to give them oil. Suddenly, those ships are not disrupted any more. Let's see if those cargo ship crewmembers will be waving next turn!

The Allies, of course, can react to this by sending warships of their own to deal with the Italian raiders. However, this will take more ships to deal with the raiders than there are raiders. (If one goes with the traditional 0, 1, 4 sea box formation, at least three, if not six times as many ships.) And the Italians could get a lucky combat roll or two. Finally, if an Italian ship suffers a D and is not sunk, it go right back into the Italian repair pool, the same as a ship bombed in an Italian harbor.

The point of the whole operation is to distract the CW player, pulling ships and focus to a secondary theater. The Italian threat is a credible one, and must be responded to. Of course, this tactic only works so long, because once the ships have to return to harbor they can't get oil and will stay disorganized. Unless, of course, an Italian raid captures Khartoum, conquering Anglo-Egyptian Sudan....

I have never seen anyone do this, but it certainly seems like a viable tactic to me. And your opponent will probably not be expecting it, unless he reads this forum.

This clearly hideously abuses the MWiF rules, and my own WiF group would probably not let me get away with this tactic, but if you play strictly according to RAW, it is legal. The clarification: "Ships and aircraft at sea are always in supply and can be reorganized," is critical to this tactic working. Option 47 will not help, because the above clarification makes it clear that Option 47 does not apply to ships at sea.

Comments? Other than "There has to be something wrong with you come to up with such nonsense?" Well, yes, I am suffering from insomnia, and this sort of thing is what my brain comes up with when I do.

< Message edited by Courtenay -- 5/9/2020 7:29:29 AM >


_____________________________

I thought I knew how to play this game....
Post #: 1
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/9/2020 8:53:27 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 42206
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

I present to you a new tactic I just came up with: The Italian East African Squadron; or, a way to grossly abuse the WiF supply and naval repair rules for fun and profit.

If you are not going to war immediately with Italy, consider moving a few ships or submarines into the Red Sea and/or the Indian Ocean. In return to base, send them to Eritea or Italian Somaliland. What good does that do? As soon as war begins with the CW, the Suez canal closes, and the units are completely out of supply.

When your opponent points this out, smile at him: . Move the ships out to sea zones with Allied CPs in them. The crewmembers of the cargo ships will wave at the Italians as they sail past, as the Italians will be disorganized from being out of supply and can't do anything to them. The Italians wave back. At the end of the turn, the Italian ships stay at sea, moving down a box. One does not have to trace a supply line to reorganize ships at sea or to give them oil. Suddenly, those ships are not disrupted any more. Let's see if those cargo ship crewmembers will be waving next turn!

The Allies, of course, can react to this by sending warships of their own to deal with the Italian raiders. However, this will take more ships to deal with the raiders than there are raiders. (If one goes with the traditional 0, 1, 4 sea box formation, at least three, if not six times as many ships.) And the Italians could get a lucky combat roll or two. Finally, if an Italian ship suffers a D and is not sunk, it go right back into the Italian repair pool, the same as a ship bombed in an Italian harbor.

The point of the whole operation is to distract the CW player, pulling ships and focus to a secondary theater. The Italian threat is a credible one, and must be responded to. Of course, this tactic only works so long, because once the ships have to return to harbor they can't get oil and will stay disorganized. Unless, of course, an Italian raid captures Khartoum, conquering Anglo-Egyptian Sudan....

I have never seen anyone do this, but it certainly seems like a viable tactic to me. And your opponent will probably not be expecting it, unless he reads this forum.

This clearly hideously abuses the MWiF rules, and my own WiF group would probably not let me get away with this tactic, but if you play strictly according to RAW, it is legal. The clarification: "Ships and aircraft at sea are always in supply and can be reorganized," is critical to this tactic working. Option 47 will not help, because the above clarification makes it clear that Option 47 does not apply to ships at sea.

Comments? Other than "There has to be something wrong with you come to up with such nonsense?" Well, yes, I am suffering from insomnia, and this sort of thing is what my brain comes up with when I do.
warspite1

I assume all this is correct (you seem to know your rules) but if so I don't see what the problem is. The Italians did have units (submarines, destroyers and a handful of TB, sloops etc in East Africa. Okay, they weren't very successful but they were there and tried to cause a nuisance. Could the Italians have placed some cruisers there? Yes - although that would weaken Italy and potentially be of limited value - but perhaps a few older ships would be worth it.

But as you say yourself, when they have to return to base it all turns south (without other factors in play) and so mirrors a build up of oil pre-war that can't be replenished (without victories on land).

Yes, the movement to the damaged pool is unfortunate.....


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Courtenay)
Post #: 2
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/9/2020 3:45:41 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3135
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
Would work; probably easier for each side with the Light Cruisers in play. Perhaps a few of those for Italy have a range > 2 ? Can’t recall. Also Italian Somaliland would make the better base for this.

In newer editions there are a few other options for this including a new counter for Italy - the ‘Red Sea Flotilla’ but sadly like the various ‘Destroyer Squadrons’ a few minors have it becomes a “CL” counter in its Collectors Edition version. Supply Units have a new increased usefulness - so I just sent an Italian SUB to a well defended Eritrea in my CE game. Should be quite a pain in the neck for the CW forces.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 3
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/9/2020 4:09:15 PM   
Cohen_slith

 

Posts: 2518
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: online
If one wants a one shot marvel go by all means.

The Italian ships will be out in known sea zones and can be hunted by superior CW forces.
Even with the CE superior supply unit usefulness (Can reorganize 1 disorganized unit a turn stacked with it) all ports are small ports. CW Carriers will be coming hunting for the Italian naval assets sitting in the minor ports.

Unless the CW itself does not care, rarely the Italian ships in AOI will live long.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 4
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/9/2020 7:05:21 PM   
Orm


Posts: 19732
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
I've previously discussed this with peskpesk. Maybe as long as 10 years ago. And we decided that it was not worthwhile with the options that we normally play.

The oil rule being the main deal breaker, since option 47 isn't currently in MWIF. Any 'A' result on a Italian ship and it is doomed with oil in play. Presence in the enemy is another pain since it would be likely that it costs 3 MP to enter the first sea area (OOS + presence). Unless, of course, you do it on, or before, the surprise. The oil rule presents another issue since you then need CPs outside the Med to reorganize the ships even while neutral. And if CW DOW before Italy the naval assets outside of the Med are basically doomed, and has the rest of the current turn to accomplish anything at all before being 'caught'.

With that said it is an interesting idea that can punish an overconfident CW player harshly.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Courtenay)
Post #: 5
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/9/2020 7:11:02 PM   
Orm


Posts: 19732
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Would work; probably easier for each side with the Light Cruisers in play. Perhaps a few of those for Italy have a range > 2 ? Can’t recall.


Only two Italian 3 range SCS in MWIF at setup as far as I know (1 CA and 1 CL). And neither has 6 MP.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 6
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/9/2020 7:53:29 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3135
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
It is basic Strategy by an inferior force - make the superior force react to it. “But they will lose the unit” is not the point - Italy is going to lose all of its units eventually. Italy’s fleet in the Med will still be inferior even if they sacrifice a cruiser or 2 or a SUB this way. Royal Navy in the Indian Ocean is better than RN in the Med.

The one unit/turn supplied raiding unit possible with Collectors Edition will be more potent as each combat result, even an “A” result, hits 3 Convoy Points at once. And their base will be protected by one supplied INF and probably one supplied TERR too.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 7
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/10/2020 1:25:28 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3135
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
PS Thanks Courtenay for this one. Just last night I emailed the move that included an Italian Sub returning to Eritrea. As the Axis held the Initiative and then ended the turn, I courteously pointed out the SUBs new port in some comments on overall activity in the impulse, so RN could think about it before their refueling orders. Italy still neutral and Suez still open. I think I will reinforce the Red Sea squadron and use the stay@sea re-org tactic to draw out even more Royal Navy response. I wonder if Allies will leave it open. With any luck, maybe Eritrea can hold out until this other big powerful navy can send some adventurers to the Indian Ocean; ones that fly a flag with a Rising Sun on it.

Related to that, an Italian cruiser move through Suez in 1939 might tempt the Allies to risk a 39 chit, and Nippon would certainly like to see that. A bit of a no brainer to send the Taranto (thanks Orm) when CLs are littering the map everywhere.


(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 8
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/10/2020 6:10:57 AM   
CL55AMG

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 11/21/2019
Status: offline
From Rules as Coded 11.18.4. Reorganizing

You can never reorganize aircraft or naval units at sea – they must be in a port or land hex (exception: Offensive chits in a naval action; see 16.2).

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 9
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/10/2020 7:13:00 AM   
Orm


Posts: 19732
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
When they are talking about reorganizing at sea in this discussi0on they talk about reorganizing during the end of turn which is allowed.

Cut from RAC:
13.5 Final reorganization step
All disorganized units become organized (including units that have stayed at sea and units that are out of
supply). [Clarification. Ships and aircraft at sea are always in supply and can be reorganized.
2008 WIF Annual.]

13.5.1 Oil (AfA option 48)
If you are playing with this option, you only automatically organize units during the final reorganization step
if they are not oil dependent. To organize oil dependent units, you must spend oil resources. Oil dependent units are
shown on the Unit costs chart (a separate PDF document).
[Clarification. You can use your own oil or oil from a co-operating major power to organize your units. Communist
and nationalist Chinese can use each other’s oil - Dec 28, 2007. Ships and aircraft at sea consume oil if
reorganized, but they do not need to trace a path to the oil resource.
2008 WIF Annual.]

< Message edited by Orm -- 5/10/2020 7:14:49 AM >


_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to CL55AMG)
Post #: 10
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/10/2020 5:48:52 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7945
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Yes, 11.18 talks about reorganizing during the turn with HQs, TRSs or ATRs. Nothing to do with end of turn reorganization.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 11
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/12/2020 4:42:32 AM   
CL55AMG

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 11/21/2019
Status: offline
Thanks, didn't realize there were two different reorganizings procedures, 'during turn' and 'final reorganization'.
Does using option 47 (Isolated reorganization) have any effect on the Italian red sea ships reorganizing?

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 12
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/12/2020 6:08:15 AM   
Courtenay


Posts: 3775
Joined: 11/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CL55AMG

Thanks, didn't realize there were two different reorganizings procedures, 'during turn' and 'final reorganization'.
Does using option 47 (Isolated reorganization) have any effect on the Italian red sea ships reorganizing?

No. Ships at sea are not affected by option 47, even if you are using it. See the official clarification I posted above and Orm also quoted.

< Message edited by Courtenay -- 5/12/2020 6:14:41 AM >


_____________________________

I thought I knew how to play this game....

(in reply to CL55AMG)
Post #: 13
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/22/2020 8:54:27 PM   
rkr1958


Posts: 18896
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: online
If the Italians are patient about when they DOW the allies they could have their Red Sea Squadron at sea and ready to hunt on the impulse they declare war on Great Britain and/or France.

This is accomplished by setting up a CP at start in the Red Sea, East Med and Italian Coast which means while Italy is neutral the Italians in East Africa, and the Red Sea, are in supply.

So if Italy waits until later in the turn to declare war they can move 1 ship, which is in supply, per impulse out to the 4-box of the Red Sea.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Ronnie

(in reply to Courtenay)
Post #: 14
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/23/2020 8:45:09 AM   
Orm


Posts: 19732
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
Not sure if I got this right.

1) If the Italian DOW is planned for Sep/Oct 1939 then there is no need for supply through the Red Sea. The ships at sea are in supply regardless. And once the war breaks out the supply line to the IEA is broken anyway.

2) Italy has no ships that can sail directly to the Red Sea 4-box during turn one. This because almost all the Italian ships has abysmal range. And because they must begin in Italy. (3 range needed for them to get to the Red Sea).

Italy can reach the 4 box in the Red Sea by rebasing to Tripoli (only port that works without additional naval moves needed), and then reorganizing the ship there. But since Italy are forced to make combined impulses it is not easy to reorganize the ships. Only way to do it on impulse 2 is to use 1 TRS and one ATR. Otherwise it is 2 TRS on impulse 3...

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 15
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/23/2020 9:12:34 AM   
ssiviour

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 8/8/2014
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Not sure if I got this right.

1) If the Italian DOW is planned for Sep/Oct 1939 then there is no need for supply through the Red Sea. The ships at sea are in supply regardless. And once the war breaks out the supply line to the IEA is broken anyway.

2) Italy has no ships that can sail directly to the Red Sea 4-box during turn one. This because almost all the Italian ships has abysmal range. And because they must begin in Italy. (3 range needed for them to get to the Red Sea).

Italy can reach the 4 box in the Red Sea by rebasing to Tripoli (only port that works without additional naval moves needed), and then reorganizing the ship there. But since Italy are forced to make combined impulses it is not easy to reorganize the ships. Only way to do it on impulse 2 is to use 1 TRS and one ATR. Otherwise it is 2 TRS on impulse 3...


This is correct, At Set Up of the Global War S/O 39 Scenario, IT Naval units can only be placed in Italy or Albania

Balbo, however can be set up in Libya or even Italian East Africa who could do the Reorg ...

But I also don't think Ronnie necessarily means IT DOW on the first turn

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 16
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/23/2020 9:30:20 AM   
Orm


Posts: 19732
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
Right, I forgot about Balbo. Thank you for reminding me.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to ssiviour)
Post #: 17
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/27/2020 11:15:55 PM   
rkr1958


Posts: 18896
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: online
The RM Red Sea Squadron is pretty nifty.

The London Times. May 1940

Page 1 Headlines.

Italians Turn Belligerent.

Italian RM Squadron Attack British and French Merchantmen.

1 Million Tons of Allied Shipping Sunk in Red Sea.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Ronnie

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 18
RE: The Italian East African Squadron - 5/28/2020 3:25:02 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3135
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
The Red Sea ‘zone’ makes me laugh sometimes. Like when my Axis air forces couldn’t find the Allied supply convoys to a besieged Suez ... from the 4 box ... for 3 turns in a row ... in the smallest ‘Sea’ on the entire map ... when any scout with a camel and a pair of binoculars could have seen the Allied shipping ... right from shore ...


When the Khaki in Flames counter set came out, it included a brand new counter for the Red Sea Flotilla. It even has a special rule: it is always in supply. The plucky little flotilla also exists as a counter in Collectors Edition, also with the same special rule. It is, however, technically a ‘CL’ counter (as with the Polish, Rumanian, & Portuguese DD squadrons), so the Italians don’t get the fun little unit when not playing the CL option.

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 19
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> The War Room >> The Italian East African Squadron Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.156