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[Logged] [B1143.1] Dogleg on BOL launch

 
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[Logged] [B1143.1] Dogleg on BOL launch - 5/5/2020 5:56:00 PM   
gosnold

 

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I launched some missiles on a BOL launch, and they performed a dogleg. Is that the intended behaviour? Because they reach the activation point with very little fuel left, and they are not on the correct heading. So they will not find the target if it is not very close to the activation point.

< Message edited by apache85 -- 5/20/2020 6:49:16 AM >
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RE: [B1143.1] Dogleg on BOL launch - 5/6/2020 6:58:36 AM   
KnightHawk75

 

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Might want to be specific about which missile munition was BOL'd and a save if possible. I've not noticed such a dogleg happen with bol's of late so I'm curious which munition you saw this happen on.

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RE: [B1143.1] Dogleg on BOL launch - 5/6/2020 2:40:58 PM   
gosnold

 

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Sure, here is the save. Hit play and the boat up North will launch a volley of NSM of a BOL, but they will do a dogleg.

Attachment (1)

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RE: [B1143.1] Dogleg on BOL launch - 5/8/2020 2:34:23 PM   
KnightHawk75

 

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Yup sure enough it happens with them, only way I saw to work around it is to allocate, but then clear course, and set a single waypoint that is in the basic straight line you want there when doing a bol otherwise it defaults to auto doglegging. hmm

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RE: [B1143.1] Dogleg on BOL launch - 5/20/2020 6:49:40 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

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Logged for investigation.

0013887

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RE: [B1143.1] Dogleg on BOL launch - 11/12/2020 8:52:39 AM   
Dimitris

 

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That's an interesting question. Should BOL-launched weapons (with terminal guidance, not those who actually aim at the coordinates like e.g. JDAM) be allowed to dogleg ? Anyone knowledgable on this from RL procedures ?

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RE: [B1143.1] Dogleg on BOL launch - 11/19/2020 8:20:03 AM   
Dimitris

 

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Takes?

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RE: [B1143.1] Dogleg on BOL launch - 11/19/2020 10:28:00 AM   
Battelman2

 

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This seems like an issue with Command.

If you know only the bearing, then you cannot maneuver in any other track than straight down that bearing (Harpoons call it bearing-rider mode for a reason). Dog-legs on BOL aren't mathematically possible to calculate unless you know (or want to guess upon firing) the distance to the target.

The only exception to this might be zig-zagging centered on the bearing, which some weapons like Harpoon IC are capable of.

This smells to me like either CMO making dog-leg calculations using data (i.e., distance to target) that the shooter doesn't have access to, or CMO using an inappropriate distance number resulting in acquisition failure. How OP describes the issue, where the missile reaches its AP with a poor bearing for target acquisition, makes me think it's the latter. I admittedly haven't tested it so I can't be sure of exactly what is happening. I'll test this next time I play.

Also strange that there even is an activation point on BOL... the terminal guidance radar is usually activated immediately after launch in this mode (this could be specific to NSM, I haven't tested this in CMO).

As for whether or not dog-legging should be possible in CMO if you provide the distance, I can't find any solid evidence online that indicates that dog-legs with BOL is possible IRL- but I also haven't found any that dismisses the idea.

If, in CMO, you have a target who's approximate position is known to you: in theory a BOL with one or more dog-legs should be possible if you use that distance value in the calculation.




< Message edited by Battelman2 -- 11/19/2020 10:48:06 AM >

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RE: [B1143.1] Dogleg on BOL launch - 11/22/2020 1:59:58 PM   
AndrewJ

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

Takes?


I have no real-life experience with this, but it would seem to me that a BOL launch should not be dog-legging under normal circumstances. The intention is to send the weapon directly towards the target, so that even though the range is unknown, the weapon seeker will still be able to pass over the target and initiate an engagement. A dog-leg would require a range estimate, and range is the piece of hard information that is usually missing in a BOL shot. A wrong range estimate makes it very unlikely for the doglegged BOL shot to hit.




Also, a dogleg shot takes longer to get to the target. In some cases (torpedo counterfire, for example) it's crucial for the weapon to get to the enemy as soon as possible, to force them to turn away and evade. A direct path BOL shot is more efficient for this.

I don't think the weapon seeker needs to turn on immediately after weapons release. 'Proceed along bearing X, and turn on your seeker at distance Y' is perfectly normal behaviour for most weapons. Anti-ship missiles with active radar certainly worked this way for many decades.

So my personal preference would be for BOL shots to default to a straight-line course directly along the chosen bearing, with seeker activation at a designated point. The player would retain the capability to add waypoints if they wanted to, with the normal course setting tools, but if they do not it would be a straight-line shot.

(Actually, I wish this was the default behaviour for missile shots in general. The computer will currently assign random doglegs to any missile shot that has the capability, which means I have to go in and undo them every single time. There is rarely any advantage to those random doglegs. Since they are not calculated to produce a TOT shot, they spread out the weapon arrival times, giving more chances for the target to shoot down the incoming missiles, and more chances that the missiles will fly near other defences on the way to the target. The AI's dogleg shots are sometimes helpful for disguising the location of distant SSGNs, but in most cases I welcome the extra time it gives me to defend against the spread-out salvo.)

(in reply to Dimitris)
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RE: [B1143.1] Dogleg on BOL launch - 11/22/2020 10:06:11 PM   
KnightHawk75

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewJ

I have no real-life experience with this, but it would seem to me that a BOL launch should not be dog-legging under normal circumstances. The intention is to send the weapon directly towards the target, so that even though the range is unknown, the weapon seeker will still be able to pass over the target and initiate an engagement. A dog-leg would require a range estimate, and range is the piece of hard information that is usually missing in a BOL shot. A wrong range estimate makes it very unlikely for the doglegged BOL shot to hit.

Also, a dogleg shot takes longer to get to the target. In some cases (torpedo counterfire, for example) it's crucial for the weapon to get to the enemy as soon as possible, to force them to turn away and evade. A direct path BOL shot is more efficient for this.

I don't think the weapon seeker needs to turn on immediately after weapons release. 'Proceed along bearing X, and turn on your seeker at distance Y' is perfectly normal behaviour for most weapons. Anti-ship missiles with active radar certainly worked this way for many decades.

So my personal preference would be for BOL shots to default to a straight-line course directly along the chosen bearing, with seeker activation at a designated point. The player would retain the capability to add waypoints if they wanted to, with the normal course setting tools, but if they do not it would be a straight-line shot.

(Actually, I wish this was the default behaviour for missile shots in general. The computer will currently assign random doglegs to any missile shot that has the capability, which means I have to go in and undo them every single time. There is rarely any advantage to those random doglegs. Since they are not calculated to produce a TOT shot, they spread out the weapon arrival times, giving more chances for the target to shoot down the incoming missiles, and more chances that the missiles will fly near other defences on the way to the target. The AI's dogleg shots are sometimes helpful for disguising the location of distant SSGNs, but in most cases I welcome the extra time it gives me to defend against the spread-out salvo.)

So my personal preference would be for BOL shots to default to a straight-line course directly along the chosen bearing, with seeker activation at a designated point. The player would retain the capability to add waypoints if they wanted to, with the normal course setting tools, but if they do not it would be a straight-line shot.

(Actually, I wish this was the default behaviour for missile shots in general. The computer will currently assign random doglegs to any missile shot that has the capability, which means I have to go in and undo them every single time. There is rarely any advantage to those random doglegs. Since they are not calculated to produce a TOT shot, they spread out the weapon arrival times, giving more chances for the target to shoot down the incoming missiles, and more chances that the missiles will fly near other defences on the way to the target. The AI's dogleg shots are sometimes helpful for disguising the location of distant SSGNs, but in most cases I welcome the extra time it gives me to defend against the spread-out salvo.)


I have zero IRL experience with this either, but related to he game experience I think you raise good points.

I concur with your preferences, and wish the same on the latter (non BOL), at least for manual or lua allocated shots. Its been one of those 80/20 things where most of the time I'm undoing the default dog-legging. Be interested to hear other perspectives on the default-legging or factors\considerations not readily apparent that play into it currently being the default.


(in reply to AndrewJ)
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