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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers

 
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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/4/2020 3:59:26 AM   
Meteor2


Posts: 377
Joined: 7/20/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline
Thanks for the answer.
But to remove (my ) confusion, why not use MM/Transports for the same duties?
Goods have to be supplied on a convoy route to to ports. By ships.
Both are subject to interdiction and can be lost, based on the danger on route.
Danger based on subs, bombers, CAP, surface vessels, weather, etc..
And the losses of ships and supply is calculated on these Parameters.
Why not?

(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 31
RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/4/2020 11:46:04 AM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3108
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

But I would like to keep the supply transport simple for players so they can focus on the strategic aspects of which ports they need to supply their armies. If I introduce this then I have to introduce turning on and off the ports.


Of course, that is the logical sequel of this. But, you know, you will face the problem because you can destroy transports when troops are loaded. Thus, I know exactly the scenario to test:
1. Do crazy invasions to destroy all your transports,
2. With only the needed transports number to supply your ports left, do encirclements that leads to increase the number of ports to supply.

The system won't invent new transports, will it?



And here is the result of my test. Initial condition is to decrease the number of transports available due to some troop transports been sunk with invasions. In the following screenshot, I have 10 transports available and 8 in use.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 32
RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/4/2020 12:01:08 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3108
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
Now, with the Red army coming, three ports are isolated from main supply. I have still 10 transports available but now I have 11 transports in use. Every port is in supply, there is no impact on port supply. The game engine is indeed inventing a none existing transport.

Now what is the probability on ETO to obtain this, I would say very unlikely. But, thinking of PTO, I think this is important to change the mechanism because PTO is mainly a naval game imho.

Thus, why not enhance the current behavior in Warplan ETO to "playtest" it before Pacific? Just asking.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 33
RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/4/2020 3:34:09 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 6205
Joined: 7/29/2013
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I might actually reduce this complexity and make it simpler. I already see problems with this new fix I made I didn't realize before.

I might make it that it doesn't actively use any ships.
I will shift it to MMs.
And instead it will just have a chance to sink an MM 10% per interdiction per port.

It simplifies everything. Instead of players going crazy trying to figure out how many transports they have and asking me a mountain of questions on why this number isn't right or the other number isn't right.

It will be cleaner and simpler.

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 34
RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/4/2020 4:09:40 PM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
Somebody wrote this (that would be me, hehehe):

Merchant Marine (MM) represent cargo ships that carry both resources across the convoy lanes and/or supplies from port to port. The same class of ships is used for both these purposes IRL, as far as I know. Wether they carry oil, coal, grain or ammunition, food rations, spare parts is irrelevant. All cargo to be unloaded in ports, using their facilities.

Transports (TR) represent the purpose built long range large ships or converted civilian ocean liners to carry troops and tanks. They often also have cranes, masts, nets, etc. to transfer the troops and vehicles to landing craft if necessary. They often are also lightly armed with AA or light guns.

Landing ships (LS) represent all the different purpose built craft like the LCT, LVP, Higgins, etc. They enable invasions and beach supply.

Of I am not mistaken, the above will soon be the way it works. I welcome that.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 35
RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/4/2020 5:52:15 PM   
Meteor2


Posts: 377
Joined: 7/20/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I might actually reduce this complexity and make it simpler. I already see problems with this new fix I made I didn't realize before.

I might make it that it doesn't actively use any ships.
I will shift it to MMs.
And instead it will just have a chance to sink an MM 10% per interdiction per port.

It simplifies everything. Instead of players going crazy trying to figure out how many transports they have and asking me a mountain of questions on why this number isn't right or the other number isn't right.

It will be cleaner and simpler.



Nooooooo!
Dear Alvaro, that is Not the Solution.
Not a simplification is needed, but a system, that makes sense and is reasonable. All ships and routes should be in danger of being attacked and ships sunk.
This 10% rule Is based on what?
Why can the MM system, with ships, escorts, subs, CAP, bombers, etc. not being used for port supply?
In the PTO, a transport and convoy system has to be more developed and not simplified.


(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 36
RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/4/2020 10:07:28 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3108
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PanzerMike

Somebody wrote this (that would be me, hehehe):

Merchant Marine (MM) represent cargo ships that carry both resources across the convoy lanes and/or supplies from port to port. The same class of ships is used for both these purposes IRL, as far as I know. Wether they carry oil, coal, grain or ammunition, food rations, spare parts is irrelevant. All cargo to be unloaded in ports, using their facilities.

Transports (TR) represent the purpose built long range large ships or converted civilian ocean liners to carry troops and tanks. They often also have cranes, masts, nets, etc. to transfer the troops and vehicles to landing craft if necessary. They often are also lightly armed with AA or light guns.

Landing ships (LS) represent all the different purpose built craft like the LCT, LVP, Higgins, etc. They enable invasions and beach supply.

Of I am not mistaken, the above will soon be the way it works. I welcome that.


All right, you won.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 37
RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/4/2020 10:12:15 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3108
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I might actually reduce this complexity and make it simpler. I already see problems with this new fix I made I didn't realize before.

I might make it that it doesn't actively use any ships.
I will shift it to MMs.
And instead it will just have a chance to sink an MM 10% per interdiction per port.

It simplifies everything. Instead of players going crazy trying to figure out how many transports they have and asking me a mountain of questions on why this number isn't right or the other number isn't right.

It will be cleaner and simpler.



Nooooooo!
Dear Alvaro, that is Not the Solution.
Not a simplification is needed, but a system, that makes sense and is reasonable. All ships and routes should be in danger of being attacked and ships sunk.
This 10% rule Is based on what?
Why can the MM system, with ships, escorts, subs, CAP, bombers, etc. not being used for port supply?
In the PTO, a transport and convoy system has to be more developed and not simplified.




That is the way I would like the game to go too. The purpose of all of this is to include losses to whatever is used (transport ships or merchant ships) to supply port. But, one way or another, if you have no more ships, you can't supply your ports.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Meteor2)
Post #: 38
RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/4/2020 10:52:57 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 6205
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
Supply convoys don't mean if 50% of the RN is near the port you just sail through with your 4 destroyer escort. It represents supplies not arriving and turning back also.

Other games are far more abstract than WarPlan in this aspect.

I will remind all of you Italy got 93% of it's supplies and 90% of it's men to North Africa under harassment.

But I feel if you park a massive fleet right outside the port and no one is there to stop you... then yea you deserve to stop that entire convoy.

The 10% estimate is based on the book I read Struggle for the Middle Sea, by O'Hara which details the Med naval campaigns. Also Black May by Gannon.

I thought about this for a good amount of time trying to examine all the problems it would cause and requests players would make complicating the supply chain even more. If you want to block supply block the port. If you want to save it attack those ships blocking it.

I don't want players micromanaging ports and convoys.

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 39
RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/5/2020 1:45:51 AM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
All right, you won.

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 40
RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/5/2020 6:59:44 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3108
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PanzerMike


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
All right, you won.

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated


Oh no, the Borgs...

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 41
RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/22/2020 3:45:16 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3108
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I might actually reduce this complexity and make it simpler. I already see problems with this new fix I made I didn't realize before.

I might make it that it doesn't actively use any ships.
I will shift it to MMs.
And instead it will just have a chance to sink an MM 10% per interdiction per port.

It simplifies everything. Instead of players going crazy trying to figure out how many transports they have and asking me a mountain of questions on why this number isn't right or the other number isn't right.

It will be cleaner and simpler.


Since your last change, is it possible for air / lands units to be out of supply if the unique port available for them is continuously showing Port Supply: 0 of 120?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 42
RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/22/2020 7:12:02 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 6205
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
They get very basic supply = about +3% a turn. Originally I thought about total shutdown of ports but found some very specific strategies that wouldn't be good for the game.

The Pacific has new small island hexes in which those can be cut off completely.



_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 43
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