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Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers

 
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Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 4/24/2020 4:08:42 PM   
ncc1701e


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Just want to understand your design choice:

. 10 Merchant marines are costing 100 production points, 5 shipyard points and 0 logistics point
. 10 Transports are costing 60 production points, 5 shipyard points and 0 logistics point
. One single oiler is costing 30 production point, 1 shipyard point and 1 logistics point (why just for the oiler?)
. 10 Landing ships are costing 15 production points, 5 shipyard points and and 0 logistics point

For example, I do not get the 100 vs 60 production points between Merchants and Transports.

Also, what was your inputs to say that this country has X Transports versus Y Merchants?


< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 4/24/2020 4:10:07 PM >


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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 4/24/2020 4:33:02 PM   
ncc1701e


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Here are the numbers in the Europe 1939 scenario:

Germany: 120 Transports compared to 160 Transports for the UK.
USA: 240 Transports already?




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< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 4/24/2020 4:41:31 PM >


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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 4/24/2020 4:35:16 PM   
ncc1701e


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Here is the Merchant marine data from The World War II Data Book of John Ellis:




But I did not find any data nor ratio to compare the Transports quantity with the Merchants quantity.



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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 4/24/2020 5:05:08 PM   
PanzerMike


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Related question:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4801753

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 4/24/2020 5:12:03 PM   
klzlueylx


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my game when playing your scorthed earth module, Canada's Merchant Marine somehow drop down to -1, and building merchant marine can't make it right. they just pops in the report, but the number keeps at -1.

i'm not sure it's a bug of the original game or just in SE mod, if not se bug then sorry to interrupt.i'll check it tomorrow.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 4/24/2020 5:38:52 PM   
PanzerMike


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Sounds vanilla to me.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 4/24/2020 11:47:38 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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I started with history and I adjusted for balance. Transports are not 1 for 1 with MMs.

The -1 MM I am hoping was solved in the upcoming beta

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 4/25/2020 5:00:47 AM   
ncc1701e


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I am trying to evaluate the cost of each unit:
. Transport ships are there to transport troops.
. Landing ships are there to invade beaches.

Does Transport ships have any other role in the game that I am unaware of?

If not, can we assimilate Transport ships to Troopship only?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troopship

Thanks

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 4/25/2020 4:33:47 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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No they represent troop shipping capacity. They also provide supply to ports. You need 1 transport point. There is a small chance one point gets sunk during such a mission.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 4/25/2020 5:21:18 PM   
PanzerMike


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Ok, transports provide transportation (well duh) for units to get from A to B. Plus they are used for shipping supplies between ports (in this role they are more akin to merchant Marine ships, but okay).

You say you need 1 transport point. Do you mean that 1 transport delivers unlimited amounts of supplies or do you mean that 1 transport will ship supplies for 1 strength point of a unit (ie you need 30 transports to deliver supplies for a 30 strength Corps)?

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 4/25/2020 5:25:19 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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1 transport for 1 port unlimited supply amount

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/1/2020 9:40:04 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

1 transport for 1 port unlimited supply amount


Alvaro, what is the equivalent rule for 1 merchant point transporting how many ressources? Just checking.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/1/2020 10:39:26 AM   
PanzerMike


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This ncc1701e guy is relentless

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/1/2020 11:41:49 AM   
ncc1701e


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Well, I like to understand how things work.

I wonder why the merchants suffer losses for the resource convoys while transports do not suffer losses for the supply convoys.
There is a difference I do not like here. Sinking 40 supplies without any transport losses is not logical. Spock would agree with me.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/1/2020 11:51:43 AM   
ncc1701e


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And just to clarify, I love this game. That's why I help find bugs and suggest as much improvement as possible.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/1/2020 12:28:13 PM   
PanzerMike


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I have commented on the transports versus merchants a few months ago.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4721652

This is how I see it:

Merchant Marine (MM) represent cargo ships that carry both resources across the convoy lanes and/or supplies from port to port. The same class of ships is used for both these purposes IRL, as far as I know. Wether they carry oil, coal, grain or ammunition, food rations, spare parts is irrelevant. All cargo to be unloaded in ports, using their facilities.

Transports (TR) represent the purpose built long range large ships or converted civilian ocean liners to carry troops and tanks. They often also have cranes, masts, nets, etc. to transfer the troops and vehicles to landing craft if necessary. They often are also lightly armed with AA or light guns.

Landing ships (LS) represent all the different purpose built craft like the LCT, LVP, Higgins, etc. They enable invasions and beach supply.

So, I think port supply would be the task of merchant ships instead of transports. They (MM) can be sunk by interdiction, just like merchant ships used on the convoy lines. Think of the Italian Navy shipping supplies to Libian ports.

The mechanism for interdiction (naval units within 4 hexes and/or air units within 8 hexes) is fine with me. You can counteract this by basing interceptors near the port, or have naval units on patrol outside the port.


< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 5/1/2020 12:43:48 PM >

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/1/2020 2:38:14 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

And just to clarify, I love this game. That's why I help find bugs and suggest as much improvement as possible.


Why else would you give me so many headaches?

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/1/2020 2:39:05 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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There is a small chance of a transport loss.

MM basically represent resources
Transports military

to keep it simple for players.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/1/2020 3:06:12 PM   
PanzerMike


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I understand your reasoning, I just don't agree. I have spoken

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/1/2020 3:33:46 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

And just to clarify, I love this game. That's why I help find bugs and suggest as much improvement as possible.


Why else would you give me so many headaches?


I'll try to do my best

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/1/2020 3:43:26 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PanzerMike

I have commented on the transports versus merchants a few months ago.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4721652

This is how I see it:

Merchant Marine (MM) represent cargo ships that carry both resources across the convoy lanes and/or supplies from port to port. The same class of ships is used for both these purposes IRL, as far as I know. Wether they carry oil, coal, grain or ammunition, food rations, spare parts is irrelevant. All cargo to be unloaded in ports, using their facilities.

Transports (TR) represent the purpose built long range large ships or converted civilian ocean liners to carry troops and tanks. They often also have cranes, masts, nets, etc. to transfer the troops and vehicles to landing craft if necessary. They often are also lightly armed with AA or light guns.

Landing ships (LS) represent all the different purpose built craft like the LCT, LVP, Higgins, etc. They enable invasions and beach supply.

So, I think port supply would be the task of merchant ships instead of transports. They (MM) can be sunk by interdiction, just like merchant ships used on the convoy lines. Think of the Italian Navy shipping supplies to Libian ports.

The mechanism for interdiction (naval units within 4 hexes and/or air units within 8 hexes) is fine with me. You can counteract this by basing interceptors near the port, or have naval units on patrol outside the port.



Good summary here Mike, thanks!

quote:

The mechanism for interdiction (naval units within 4 hexes and/or air units within 8 hexes) is fine with me.


Don't get me wrong. The system is fine to me except that I would like to see more transport ships destroyed. We are losing merchants, we must lose transports and take care of them (build some if needed). In fact, I just would like to change this rule of "1 transport for 1 port unlimited supply amount" by, let's say, "1 transport for 1 port for xx supply amount". That way, the Axis has to make a choice between invasion and supply. They will have less problem in early war to do invasion. But, in 1942 or 1943, if they are losing ships for supply of Norway, I am not sure to see any UK invasion.

And, at last, what is hidden in my words is that I am already thinking of the Pacific.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/1/2020 3:53:20 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

There is a small chance of a transport loss.


That why I was asking you to display the number of transport sunk when supplies are destroyed in the Supply Interdiction report here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4804189

So that this is tranparent.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/1/2020 4:18:33 PM   
PanzerMike


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I still think merchant (not transports) should do Port supply. But within the current system, where transports do Port supply, I agree with what you say ncc

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/2/2020 12:52:47 PM   
ncc1701e


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I see perfectly what you mean with merchants vs transports, PanzerMike. But, it is perhaps too late to change the game mechanism.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/2/2020 1:14:54 PM   
ncc1701e


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Alvaro,

Here is my hypothesis:
1. Studying the map, it seems the lower limit for port supply is xx of 20.
2. Changing the rule to "1 transport for 1 port for 20 supply amount".

What's give:
1. if every transport are intercepted every turn for every port:
--> Germany has no more transport on 19 Jul 1940 if they have invaded Norway
--> Italy has no more transport on 7 Jun 1940
Hardly possible

2. if 1/4 transport are intercepted every turn for every port:
--> Germany has no more transport on 14 Mar 1941
--> Italy has no more on 11 Oct 1940

Of course with protection, this date must be better at the end. And, building new transport may help.
Maybe something to try but only after the 1.00.07 patch is out. Let's secure.

What do you think of this?




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 5/2/2020 1:16:05 PM >


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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/2/2020 3:48:08 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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This is very nice work you have done. But I would like to keep the supply transport simple for players so they can focus on the strategic aspects of which ports they need to supply their armies. If I introduce this then I have to introduce turning on and off the ports. Then I have to write for the A.I. to do the same. Now this is getting into complex coding and debugging changing the operation system. Quite possible I have to add a new variable which would affect ongoing games. And so on and so on and so on.

Easier things that don't impact the ease of play for the game I usually include.
Items that require a lot of coding, debugging, and modification, potentially impacting current games I save for the next version of the game.

What would be horrible is if I introduced a completely new mechanism that botched the game which takes me 2 weeks to fix as bad press piles up and drops sales. All for a bug of a new feature. Steam is not forgiving in this nature. So the cost of time and profit is pretty large for a risky change. On the surface it seems simple but game design and coding are I'd say 25x more complex than a player realizes when accounting for all cascading effects.

WarPlan 2 already ideas on the drawing board for doing the MM and transport system better that is more immersive without micromanagement.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/2/2020 5:35:38 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

But I would like to keep the supply transport simple for players so they can focus on the strategic aspects of which ports they need to supply their armies. If I introduce this then I have to introduce turning on and off the ports.


Of course, that is the logical sequel of this. But, you know, you will face the problem because you can destroy transports when troops are loaded. Thus, I know exactly the scenario to test:
1. Do crazy invasions to destroy all your transports,
2. With only the needed transports number to supply your ports left, do encirclements that leads to increase the number of ports to supply.

The system won't invent new transports, will it?

This is perhaps a little border line but it exists.

And, thinking of Pacific, Rabaul that was completely bypass by the US. At the end, no supply ships were able to pass. By the way, the merchants and the transports were all sunk at the end.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

What would be horrible is if I introduced a completely new mechanism that botched the game which takes me 2 weeks to fix as bad press piles up and drops sales. All for a bug of a new feature. Steam is not forgiving in this nature. So the cost of time and profit is pretty large for a risky change.


Yes, that is why I said "Maybe something to try but only after the 1.00.07 patch is out. Let's secure". I miss the fact I do not see transports sunk like merchants. Other than this, the whole game is great.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
On the surface it seems simple but game design and coding are I'd say 25x more complex than a player realizes when accounting for all cascading effects.


I know I am coding myself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

WarPlan 2 already ideas on the drawing board for doing the MM and transport system better that is more immersive without micromanagement.


Great, can't wait!

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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/2/2020 9:22:12 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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They have a 10% chance to get sunk. Players should be building transports and MMs during the game as those countries did in real life.

This isn't Axis and Allies ya know.

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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/3/2020 7:23:39 AM   
Meteor2


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Dear ncc1701e,
I like it a lot, that you are going into this depth in analysing the logistic aspects.
For the PTO or even WP2 these thoughts and suggestions are important, IMHO.
Please do not stop to publish them.

In the Med I always wondered, if there is a possiblity to deactivate ports, if
they are to exposed the enemy attack, leading to the „80 lost“.

Alvaro, please: consider the recalculation of these numbers. 20, 40 oder 80...
is so unbeliveable.



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RE: Merchants, transports and landing ships by numbers - 5/3/2020 7:44:45 AM   
PanzerMike


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About the 80 lost, the way I understand it, this does not actually cost you anything in PP. It simply means less supplies available for units that use that port's supply. As long as no transport is sunk, no real harm is done. It just a pain in the butt if you are dependent on that port.

So, with the current system I see no real need to disable a port with the intent to prevent losses; there aren't any (apart from the occasional transport due to the 10 percent chance).

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 5/3/2020 7:45:36 AM >

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