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Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 3:15:57 PM   
Omnius


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I'm working on a major update to my old Bulge 2000 scenario to upload here and am wondering about Tactical Reserve orders. I have HQ and artillery units set right behind the frontlines set up adjacent to units that are being attacked yet not once do I see any of these units supporting the defense in any of the combat reports I read. I have the Force Support set for most formations to Army Support yet not once am I seeing any HQ or artillery units set to Tactical Reserve support any adjacent defender from the same formation. None of these HQ or artillery units shows it becoming tried or having a reduction in readiness.

I know that they won't always provide defensive support but to not see any support ever for any defense in hundreds of combats makes me wonder what I'm missing. As I understand the rule on page 37 regarding Tactical Reserve it would mean that HQ's and artillery units adjacent to units being attacked by the enemy should provide support which I assume is like Combat Support for air units. I know that Local Reserve causes units adjacent to an enemy attack to perhaps move 1 hex towards that combat. I assume that Tactical Reserve is like Combat Support for air units, allowing the HQ or artillery units to provide bombardment support to the defenders.

Do HQ units need to have artillery equipment in them to provide Tactical Reserve support? Since the HQ units don't have artillery in them perhaps this is causing them to not support adjacent combats against units of the same formation.

I sure hope someone can enlighten me on Tactical Reserve so I can finish up this major setup upgrade. I'm trying to use HQ and artillery units as defensive support units directly behind the frontline to improve the defense of the defending side. I see air units providing support but never HQ or artillery units. Either I have totally misunderstood Tactical Reserve and Force Support or it seems to be broken. It looks like the only way I get artillery units to help on the defense is to use them to bombard offensively in my part of the turn.
Post #: 1
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 3:44:48 PM   
TheeWarLord


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Greeting, my understanding of tactical support is that the units designated tactical will physically move into the hex under attack. For bombardment support, any artillery units, air support units within range will provide 1/2 factors for support, including non tactical mode. Units must have artillery weaponary and designated range to give this support and air capability (CS). Anyone want to chime in or elaborate more?

< Message edited by TheeWarLord -- 4/24/2020 8:36:16 PM >

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 2
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 5:57:02 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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From: Houston, TX
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For ranged units to support combats, they must have full cooperation with the friendly participants.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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Post #: 3
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 6:08:50 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 727
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From: Salinas, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheeWarLord

Greeting, my understanding of tactical support is that the units designated tactical will physically move into the hex under attack. For bombardment support, any artillery units, air support units within range will provide 1/2 factors for support, including non tactical mode. Units must have artillery weaponary and designated range to give this support and air capability (TS). Anyone want to chime in or elaborate more?


Greetings TheeWarLord - Your understanding of Tactical Reserve appears to be similar to my own. I hadn't thought of putting combat units into Tactical Reserve since Local Reserve does allows them to move towards combats. It does seem that HQ units don't actually move when in Tactical Reserve nor do mine provide defensive bombardment support since they lack artillery so it looks like HQ's aren't going to provide any kind of support so back to setting them on fortified. Since my artillery units have 2 to 3 hex range on a 15km scale map the artillery most definitely have the range to support adjacent hexes but so far don't appear to. Back to more testing.

(in reply to TheeWarLord)
Post #: 4
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 6:18:09 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 727
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

For ranged units to support combats, they must have full cooperation with the friendly participants.


Curtis Lemay - A short answer that really provides no extra insight for me. I'm using a 15km scale map and have artillery with 2 and 3 range ability, certainly if they're adjacent to a unit in the same formation with the same background and symbol colors they should on occasion provide support since the formation is set to Army Support. Actually some units should be able to provide support with just limited support ability according to the Support chart in the manual.

Remember I'm talking defensive support via the Tactical Reserve unit setting. I know that on offense I can use artillery within range of a planned combat just by clicking on the artillery unit and bombarding the hex as support. That works fine but I could have sworn we were able to provide defensive artillery combat support by setting them to Tactical Reserve the way we do air units setting them to Combat Support.

I'm looking for the magic formula to properly use artillery in defensive combat support. I sure hope someone can elaborate on how that successfully works. I sure wish Norm would chime in.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 5
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 6:46:38 PM   
Hellen_slith


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re>::"It does seem that HQ units don't actually move when in Tactical Reserve"

only observing, that I have seen at least one HQ move into an adjacent hex while in TacReserve ....

not sure how that happened, it surprised me to see that, but there does seem to be at least some sort of instance where that can happen.

I think it was a Sov unit in RGW scene, I will continue to look for that to confirm. Maybe it was set to range 0, not sure.


(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 6
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 7:02:06 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11982
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

For ranged units to support combats, they must have full cooperation with the friendly participants.


Curtis Lemay - A short answer that really provides no extra insight for me. I'm using a 15km scale map and have artillery with 2 and 3 range ability, certainly if they're adjacent to a unit in the same formation with the same background and symbol colors they should on occasion provide support since the formation is set to Army Support. Actually some units should be able to provide support with just limited support ability according to the Support chart in the manual.

Remember I'm talking defensive support via the Tactical Reserve unit setting. I know that on offense I can use artillery within range of a planned combat just by clicking on the artillery unit and bombarding the hex as support. That works fine but I could have sworn we were able to provide defensive artillery combat support by setting them to Tactical Reserve the way we do air units setting them to Combat Support.

I'm looking for the magic formula to properly use artillery in defensive combat support. I sure hope someone can elaborate on how that successfully works. I sure wish Norm would chime in.

I just ran a quick test, and a cooperative artillery unit set to tactical reserve definitely supported a defense.

You're going to have to provide some screenshots to show us what you're seeing.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 7
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 7:41:21 PM   
Lobster


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According to the manual you should receive support from artillery dug in, tactical reserve or local reserve.

§§ Army Support: Units assigned to the
Formation may only freely cooperate with
others in the same Formation, or those using
the same icon color scheme (icon and symbol
color).
Limited cooperation is possible with
units using the same icon background color;
no cooperation is possible with units using a
different basic icon color.

§§ Free Cooperation: Units will coordinate
Attacks and Defenses. Reserve and combat
support units will attempt to respond to all
Attacks within range. Nearby Headquarters
units will increase the likelihood of Resupply.
This is shown with a gold-colored Flag icon
in the Combat Planning window.

§§ Limited Cooperation: Units will coordinate
Attacks and Defenses, but with penalties.
Reserve units will respond to all Attacks
within range.
Combat Support units will not
respond to Attacks.
This is shown with a steelcolored
Flag icon in the Combat Planning
window. This scales combat strengths by 83%.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 4/24/2020 7:46:00 PM >


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(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 8
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 8:03:27 PM   
sPzAbt653


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From: east coast, usa
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Hi Eric - When during my turn I am advancing I definitely use T to allow the artillery to support my combats [along with some combat units, depending on the situation]. When it is the other sides turn and I am in Defend Mode, I dig in the artillery. Units on T will not move on the owner's turn, but will on the enemy turn. So I wonder why you don't dig in the artillery that you want to provide defensive support, because that seems the way to get what you want.

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 9
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 8:22:37 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11982
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Units on T will not move on the owner's turn, but will on the enemy turn.


Not ranged units.


_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 10
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 9:07:33 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 727
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

re>::"It does seem that HQ units don't actually move when in Tactical Reserve"

only observing, that I have seen at least one HQ move into an adjacent hex while in TacReserve ....

not sure how that happened, it surprised me to see that, but there does seem to be at least some sort of instance where that can happen.

I think it was a Sov unit in RGW scene, I will continue to look for that to confirm. Maybe it was set to range 0, not sure.




Hellen_slith,
Thanks for an enlightening answer. I'm glad to see that an HQ unit is doing something when set to Tac Reserve. Actually don't want an HQ unit to move into a combat hex, would rather keep it back and it looks like dug in to provide resupply support and a second line in case of battle loss.


(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 11
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 9:25:46 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 727
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

For ranged units to support combats, they must have full cooperation with the friendly participants.


Curtis Lemay - A short answer that really provides no extra insight for me. I'm using a 15km scale map and have artillery with 2 and 3 range ability, certainly if they're adjacent to a unit in the same formation with the same background and symbol colors they should on occasion provide support since the formation is set to Army Support. Actually some units should be able to provide support with just limited support ability according to the Support chart in the manual.

Remember I'm talking defensive support via the Tactical Reserve unit setting. I know that on offense I can use artillery within range of a planned combat just by clicking on the artillery unit and bombarding the hex as support. That works fine but I could have sworn we were able to provide defensive artillery combat support by setting them to Tactical Reserve the way we do air units setting them to Combat Support.

I'm looking for the magic formula to properly use artillery in defensive combat support. I sure hope someone can elaborate on how that successfully works. I sure wish Norm would chime in.

I just ran a quick test, and a cooperative artillery unit set to tactical reserve definitely supported a defense.

You're going to have to provide some screenshots to show us what you're seeing.


Curtis Lemay,
Thanks so much for running that informative test. Now that I know it will work I can work my test in my scenario to see if on turn 2 the side 2 may be hampered by waiting to Activate on turn 2 when it is in side 1's part of turn 2. I'll have to test this out in my scenario and see if side 1 is still Static waiting for activation in turn 2 when side 1 is attacking and then on turn 3 to see what effect being fully activated makes. Turn 1 is peace and war doesn't start until turn 2 or 3. I have units on both sides of front line set to activate on turn 2 and they're set to Static so I'm starting to wonder if that's where my problem is. Perhaps a different setting will solve the issue while keeping the units where they are for turn 1.

I take it you see a supporting artillery unit in the actual battle report the same way supporting air units are shown, it's the way I remember it at least.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 12
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 9:30:19 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 727
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

According to the manual you should receive support from artillery dug in, tactical reserve or local reserve.

§§ Army Support: Units assigned to the
Formation may only freely cooperate with
others in the same Formation, or those using
the same icon color scheme (icon and symbol
color).
Limited cooperation is possible with
units using the same icon background color;
no cooperation is possible with units using a
different basic icon color.

§§ Free Cooperation: Units will coordinate
Attacks and Defenses. Reserve and combat
support units will attempt to respond to all
Attacks within range. Nearby Headquarters
units will increase the likelihood of Resupply.
This is shown with a gold-colored Flag icon
in the Combat Planning window.

§§ Limited Cooperation: Units will coordinate
Attacks and Defenses, but with penalties.
Reserve units will respond to all Attacks
within range.
Combat Support units will not
respond to Attacks.
This is shown with a steelcolored
Flag icon in the Combat Planning
window. This scales combat strengths by 83%.


Lobster,
I definitely had the Army Support properly modeled, units were in the same formation and had the same color schemes. I even had limited cooperation covered with the correct identical color scheme. I'm starting to think there's another reason for my cooperation support problem covered in my second reply to Curtis Lemay so will have to test that out. Thanks for helping!

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 13
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 9:36:51 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1578
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
Sure, NP. I *think* (correct if wrong), if an HQ w/ range is set by user to range 0, then it operates as if it were a ground combat unit, and thus may react on TacReserve as if it were a "normal" unit. From the manual:





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 14
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 9:38:28 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 727
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Hi Eric - When during my turn I am advancing I definitely use T to allow the artillery to support my combats [along with some combat units, depending on the situation]. When it is the other sides turn and I am in Defend Mode, I dig in the artillery. Units on T will not move on the owner's turn, but will on the enemy turn. So I wonder why you don't dig in the artillery that you want to provide defensive support, because that seems the way to get what you want.


sPzAbt653,
Thanks for your answer about Tactical Reserve. It's been a while since I played heavily and you helped me to remember that TR can be useful on the offense. I like the suggestion about digging in artillery in the second line of defense, I'm trying to remember if artillery provides combat support to defending units in range. Looks like more testing to see what settings are best for setup. I think my problem may relate to how the units are set on side 2 on turn 2 when they become activated. I have to look to see if they're still deactivated and static on side 1's part of turn 2.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 15
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 9:40:26 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 727
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

Sure, NP. I *think* (correct if wrong), if an HQ w/ range is set by user to range 0, then it operates as if it were a ground combat unit, and thus may react on TacReserve as if it were a "normal" unit. From the manual:






Hellen_slith,
Definitely not the case in my scenario. Artillery units have their proper ranges at 15km hex scale. Normally 2 or 3 hexes since it's modern era.

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 16
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 9:52:16 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1578
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
Yes, only noting that users can "delimit" the ranges you've set, to suit their purposes.

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 17
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/24/2020 10:09:57 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11982
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

For ranged units to support combats, they must have full cooperation with the friendly participants.


Curtis Lemay - A short answer that really provides no extra insight for me. I'm using a 15km scale map and have artillery with 2 and 3 range ability, certainly if they're adjacent to a unit in the same formation with the same background and symbol colors they should on occasion provide support since the formation is set to Army Support. Actually some units should be able to provide support with just limited support ability according to the Support chart in the manual.

Remember I'm talking defensive support via the Tactical Reserve unit setting. I know that on offense I can use artillery within range of a planned combat just by clicking on the artillery unit and bombarding the hex as support. That works fine but I could have sworn we were able to provide defensive artillery combat support by setting them to Tactical Reserve the way we do air units setting them to Combat Support.

I'm looking for the magic formula to properly use artillery in defensive combat support. I sure hope someone can elaborate on how that successfully works. I sure wish Norm would chime in.

I just ran a quick test, and a cooperative artillery unit set to tactical reserve definitely supported a defense.

You're going to have to provide some screenshots to show us what you're seeing.


Curtis Lemay,
Thanks so much for running that informative test. Now that I know it will work I can work my test in my scenario to see if on turn 2 the side 2 may be hampered by waiting to Activate on turn 2 when it is in side 1's part of turn 2. I'll have to test this out in my scenario and see if side 1 is still Static waiting for activation in turn 2 when side 1 is attacking and then on turn 3 to see what effect being fully activated makes. Turn 1 is peace and war doesn't start until turn 2 or 3. I have units on both sides of front line set to activate on turn 2 and they're set to Static so I'm starting to wonder if that's where my problem is. Perhaps a different setting will solve the issue while keeping the units where they are for turn 1.

I take it you see a supporting artillery unit in the actual battle report the same way supporting air units are shown, it's the way I remember it at least.

Units that are not "ready for orders" will not support.

And, if you are using New Turn Order Rules, side two forces will not come out of Static till their player turn.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 4/24/2020 10:11:14 PM >


_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 18
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/26/2020 2:06:07 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 727
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Units that are not "ready for orders" will not support.

And, if you are using New Turn Order Rules, side two forces will not come out of Static till their player turn.


Curtis Lemay,
After testing yesterday I discovered that it's the Static order for side 2 that's causing the support problem. I can confirm that the new Turn Order Rules are screwing up side 2's ability to use support. Now to test without this rule on. Hopefully that'll solve the problem so I can leave the formations to activate on turn 2 and if war starts then they'll have the support ability intact. As much as I like to use all of the newest rules I prefer having active defenders for this situation. I think it's a massive mistake to keep side 2 shackled instead of being activated at the very beginning of the turn like side 1 gets although it could be used to simulate surprise which could be covered with an event.

HQ units indeed provide combat support when in Tactical Reserve and they don't move doing it. The artillery supports defenders within range nicely.

@Curtis Lemay, @Lobster & @Hellen_slith - Thanks for helping me with this issue! Your inputs were helpful and now I can move forward upgrading my Bulge 2000 scenario after a 21 year hiatus.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 19
RE: Tactical Reserve Questions - 4/26/2020 7:52:11 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9146
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

I like to use all of the newest rules

It seems that other players have the same fault. The best course is to only use Rules that are recommended by the scenario designer.

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Post #: 20
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