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German command capacity - 4/21/2020 9:36:40 AM   
Gamer64

 

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I was just curious if anyone knew the rationale for German command being so horribly overloaded? I'm in my first game as German and its quite noticeable. Also, I have read extensively about Barbarossa without finding that command overload was a real issue.

I have a few hypothesis:

1. The weren't enough officers to form additional HQs. Seems unlikely given the experience level of the army on the eve of the campaign.
2. The Germans were idiots who did not mind commanders being reduced to the role of cheerleaders. After all, they were just fighting the Soviets so why bother?
3. The game model is incorrect, and von Rundstedt actually could effectively command his armies. German Army Group, and perhaps Army and Corps, capacity is really too low.
4. Its just me missing the obvious


Looking forward to thoughts on the subject.

Gamer64
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RE: German command capacity - 4/21/2020 9:56:17 AM   
Telemecus


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Interesting question.

One thought I would put though is is this the right frame? The starting command chain is far from perfect, but a German corps commander with one or even two divisions overloaded is still much better than an average well loaded Russian leader. Yes Runstedt's command makes his ratings very marginal (except maybe morale?) but you could say the aim was only to get an overall balance of German command right and not right at every level. So rather than comparing it to the optimum and saying it is bad perhaps we should compare it to the other side and say it is pretty good? If so it still compares to what was historical.

Part of the game play is deciding how to allocate points - better leaders, HQBUs or to something else. If the Germans started with perfect command it would remove some of the interesting choices to be made. And presumably in 1941 even a stellar class of officers could be improved (further in depth staff training?, even better sort and selection methods, etc.). On the basis that there is always room for improvement given enough time and resources historically, the game should reflect that command could be improved if points were spent on it and not on something else?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 4/21/2020 9:57:31 AM >


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RE: German command capacity - 4/21/2020 11:04:07 AM   
Gamer64

 

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Thank you Telemecus.

I have thought about your optimization approach. You probably know a lot more about the mechanics than me.

Each leader rating check is essentially the computer generating a Die(x) value where x is the roll range. If the result is less than the
leader rating then the check is passed, but if the result is greater than the rating, the check fails and the next leader in the chain of
command tries.


For IHQ x = 10 and it doubles every level above. I think.

So Guderian starts in a level 2 HQ with a base x=20. He wants to help his mechanized corps with his awesome 9 mech rating. His chances of making a roll are 9/20 (45%). But he is overloaded 7 points so the roll is 9/27 (33%). This is an almost 30% reduction in his ability to influence the battle. I imagine at this point he is stomping around quite mad.

But for Rundstedt it is much worse. He is generally at level 3 with a base of 40. His chance to help on infantry checks is 7/40 (17.5%). But with 50 overload points it is 7/90 (7%) so his ability is reduced over 50%. Why is he not complaining to Hitler about the need for more staff officers?

Is this how the rules actually work?

I get the argument about making hard choices. Perhaps this is just a clunky way to get there, but in counter argument, I would say not a choice the Soviets have to make beyond turn 3 when everything ought to be within command capacity (my opinion). In the winter the Germans have plenty of points but no way to address overload.

Just my thoughts, and no game engine is perfect. Perhaps not worth bothering about but I am forever curious.

Gamer


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RE: German command capacity - 4/21/2020 5:05:37 PM   
eskuche

 

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That is exactly correct. Therefore you NEVER want your corps commands overloaded. One point or so in army level can be forgivable for short periods, and you should basically not even worry about army groups especially AGS. If you CAN get AGN and maybe AGC under 96 CP eventually great. This is also the reason some players like Jodl in AGS. Morale rolls don’t take distance or (I think) overloaded penalties.

Do take note that the better the IHQ commanders are, the less necessary higher leaders are. For example, if you stack I and L corps with Model and say Heinrici, they will pass their checks so often that backup rolls are hardly necessary. A more stark example are air HQs. You basically want your two 8’s (Richthofen and Keaselring) in charge of 16 airbases (8 in 1 Fliegerkorps and 8 in the superior Luftflotte). This ensures all airbases have 80-88% air rating.

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RE: German command capacity - 4/23/2020 6:41:17 PM   
king171717


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Joined: 5/14/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gamer64

I was just curious if anyone knew the rationale for German command being so horribly overloaded? I'm in my first game as German and its quite noticeable. Also, I have read extensively about Barbarossa without finding that command overload was a real issue.

I have a few hypothesis:

1. The weren't enough officers to form additional HQs. Seems unlikely given the experience level of the army on the eve of the campaign.
2. The Germans were idiots who did not mind commanders being reduced to the role of cheerleaders. After all, they were just fighting the Soviets so why bother?
3. The game model is incorrect, and von Rundstedt actually could effectively command his armies. German Army Group, and perhaps Army and Corps, capacity is really too low.
4. Its just me missing the obvious


Looking forward to thoughts on the subject.

Gamer64


The Germans did have command problems too. David Stahel's books are very good at showing how the german generals function together and with hitler.

For instance, Heinz Guderian drove on Yel'nya for an leap point for an offensive towards moscow instead of sealing the smolensk pocket. Panzer group 3 (hoth) had to try and extend further to seal the pocket. 10th Panzer and Das Reich got chew right down just trying to defend Yel'nya. While Hoth had to extend more to try and close the pocket, which wasnt the plan. They never used Yel'nya as a lauch point as Guderian was sent south afterwards.

The reason was Halder wanted to force hitler hand to go for Moscow, where as, hitler plan was never for Moscow first. Halder kept his Army center general's (hoth, gunderian, bock) in the dark in what the plan was after the initial encirclements.




< Message edited by king171717 -- 4/23/2020 6:46:21 PM >

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RE: German command capacity - 4/23/2020 8:29:43 PM   
joelmar


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Also, the Germans had a lack of experienced senior officers used to handle large formations bigger than a regiment since the German army had been limited to 100000 men for 15 years or so before Hitler's rearmement program, this includes field commanders and staff officers.

That made for a fantastic NCO officers pool though because most privates of that small army were elite career professionals that could easily step up as NCO. And their too few leaders where mostly elite too.

I think WitE models that well.



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RE: German command capacity - 4/25/2020 12:55:29 PM   
Zug


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You just need to hold out until you can get the Army Group split, which can be as early as fall, 1941. Once that happens, you can fix this, with maybe some overload in spots. When I do it I can eliminate all overloading at Army Group level, but some remains at Army level. The Germans need an additional Army HQ. The Russians can build whatever they want. The Germans have to make do. Just one lousy HQ would make all the difference for me.

It's probably possible to eliminate overload at all levels, but I've never quite done it. A number of Corps get assigned directly to Army Group HQ as 'independent' formations for me to get this done.

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RE: German command capacity - 4/26/2020 6:21:41 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zug

... The Russians can build whatever they want. The Germans have to make do. ....


That is incorrect. They can build Combined Arms Armies from Sep 39, Tank Armies from Jul 42 but they cannot build Fronts.

Like the Germans, overloading early on causes the Soviets major porblems, probably more than the the Germans. All things improve over time but as you cannot build Fronts excessively building either of the two Army HQs only leads to Soviet Front overloading hence poor command control.

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RE: German command capacity - 4/26/2020 7:27:15 AM   
eskuche

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zug

You just need to hold out until you can get the Army Group split, which can be as early as fall, 1941. Once that happens, you can fix this, with maybe some overload in spots. When I do it I can eliminate all overloading at Army Group level, but some remains at Army level. The Germans need an additional Army HQ. The Russians can build whatever they want. The Germans have to make do. Just one lousy HQ would make all the difference for me.

It's probably possible to eliminate overload at all levels, but I've never quite done it. A number of Corps get assigned directly to Army Group HQ as 'independent' formations for me to get this done.


Germans can reassign to Finns or Rumania. They can also put the various nations' infantry regiments under RHG control. If all else fails, they can reassign some of the extra Corps to OKH. There might even be room in one or two panzer groups for one extra corps.

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