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RE: Naval attack. - 4/25/2020 6:04:00 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Convoy routes are only for resources not supplies. Ports get supplies and are affected by units near them.

If you want to stop ships and planes raiding your port supply place other ships and planes in the area. Also attack and sink them.


This is the point and this is where I do not understand what you mean by "attack and sink them". I would like to attack and sink them but it seems ONLY the air units are allowed to do this.

See this Italian sub. It is destroying 40 supplies already.




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< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 4/25/2020 6:18:30 AM >


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Post #: 31
RE: Naval attack. - 4/25/2020 6:06:11 AM   
ncc1701e


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I am taking my DD Patrol boat outside the port. Impossible to attack.




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< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 4/25/2020 6:09:12 AM >


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Post #: 32
RE: Naval attack. - 4/25/2020 6:08:34 AM   
ncc1701e


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OK, why not the DD group was in port after all. So I decide to leave the DD group near the Italian sub group.
And, I am ending the turn...

The supply is no more destroyed, fine.




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Post #: 33
RE: Naval attack. - 4/25/2020 6:11:08 AM   
ncc1701e


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Now with one turn just near the Italian sub, I decide to attack with my DD group. Impossible to attack.




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Post #: 34
RE: Naval attack. - 4/25/2020 6:14:48 AM   
ncc1701e


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So, I end the turn once more. The supply of another harbor is now sunk despite my DD group. But, the one of Alexandria has been preserved.




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Post #: 35
RE: Naval attack. - 4/25/2020 6:16:04 AM   
ncc1701e


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Trying to attack once more after two turns near the Italian subs. Impossible to attack.




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Post #: 36
RE: Naval attack. - 4/25/2020 6:17:39 AM   
ncc1701e


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I have even tried to move the DD group around the sub, same result. I have tried with CA group alone, BB group alone, same result.
Only CV can attack with its Air unit.

Is it the expected behavior?

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Post #: 37
RE: Naval attack. - 4/25/2020 11:06:41 AM   
Meteor2


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Thanks nnc1701e for all the „Research“ you are doing here.
Especially these naval aspects have to be right and meaningful, before going to the PTO.

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Post #: 38
RE: Naval attack. - 4/25/2020 4:32:23 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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All you have to do is part a fleet outside the port. That's it. He has 3 subs there part 3 patrol groups just outside the port. Your escorts give full protection vs the supply convoy. His subs provide less attack because they are 3-4 hexes away. Then just pound it with air units.

But this does give me an idea to include sub combat for supply in this case for the next beta.

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Post #: 39
RE: Naval attack. - 4/25/2020 8:59:18 PM   
ncc1701e


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Alvaro, I like your convoy routes system. This is elegant, simple and transparent. But, at the same time, I have to say that the port supply system is opaque.

Why don't you add two things in the below window?

1. The number of transport ships used to supply one port. The "1 transport for 1 port unlimited supply amount" rule is a little too simple. Maybe 1 transport for 1 port for 40 supplies would be better. Like this, Tripoli (120) needs 3 transport ships instead of one. And, if in a port supply interdiction a message is shown saying I have lost 40 stockpile, then you sunk 1 transport ship from the pool.

2. Allow the player to assign escorts on port supply routes just like you are doing for convoy routes.

Thanks




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< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 4/25/2020 9:00:23 PM >


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Post #: 40
RE: Naval attack. - 4/25/2020 10:02:57 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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I had that before and it just added micromanagement and mistakes. I kept it simple so players can focus on thinking.

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Post #: 41
RE: Naval attack. - 4/26/2020 1:10:18 AM   
sveint


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

All you have to do is part a fleet outside the port. That's it.


Sorry but this must be explicitly stated somewhere in the manual. I was completely unaware of it.

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Post #: 42
RE: Naval attack. - 4/26/2020 3:09:13 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

Thanks nnc1701e for all the „Research“ you are doing here.
Especially these naval aspects have to be right and meaningful, before going to the PTO.



Thanks, agree this is important for PTO.

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Post #: 43
RE: Naval attack. - 4/26/2020 5:42:30 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

All you have to do is part a fleet outside the port. That's it.


Sorry but this must be explicitly stated somewhere in the manual. I was completely unaware of it.


I did forget to put that section in the manual. I'll add it.

air units within 8 hexes (or air range)
naval units within 4 hexes.
The closer they are to the port the more they suppress the supply.

For the defended all they have to do is have an air unit within range of 8 (or air range) or a naval of 4 hex range and they will get full protection.



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Post #: 44
RE: Naval attack. - 4/27/2020 9:46:45 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Alvaro, I like your convoy routes system. This is elegant, simple and transparent. But, at the same time, I have to say that the port supply system is opaque.

Why don't you add two things in the below window?

1. The number of transport ships used to supply one port. The "1 transport for 1 port unlimited supply amount" rule is a little too simple. Maybe 1 transport for 1 port for 40 supplies would be better. Like this, Tripoli (120) needs 3 transport ships instead of one. And, if in a port supply interdiction a message is shown saying I have lost 40 stockpile, then you sunk 1 transport ship from the pool.

2. Allow the player to assign escorts on port supply routes just like you are doing for convoy routes.

Thanks





quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I had that before and it just added micromanagement and mistakes. I kept it simple so players can focus on thinking.


In fact, there are three mechanisms and this is perhaps why I am confused but I start to understand now.

1. Convoy routes where you need to invest in Escorts and assigned them to Convoy routes for protection
2. Supply convoy where you actually need to build real DD groups to escort them near the destination port (ONLY the destination, it seems as per the below rules)

quote:

Supply Convoy Raider - Air units within 8 hexes, or fewer if their range is shorter, of an enemy port that have remaining operation points at the end of their turn might intercept and attack the supply convoy of an enemy and reduce its stockpile for the port.


quote:

Supply Convoy Attacks - Naval units near an enemy port that has its port supply active are subject to having their supply convoys attacked. Transports may be sunk when raiding a supply convoy. The closer a fleet is to the enemy port, the higher chance of intercepting the supply convoy. A naval unit must be within 4 hexes of the enemy port to have any chance of affecting the supply convoy. The supply interdiction targets the port capacity. A port can’t be reduced below 1 from a supply convoy attack.


quote:

Supply Convoy Interdiction - After supply is calculated for a port, friendly and enemy fleets are automatically calculated for interdicting the supply line. Port supplies can be affected by enemy naval and air forces in the area with at least 1 operation point at the end of the turn. Naval forces need to be within 4 hexes and enemy air forces within 8 hexes, or less if the air unit range is less, of the port to have a chance to affect supply delivered. Friendly air and naval forces automatically escort within the same ranges. Port levels can’t be reduced lower than 1. The further away an interdicting enemy fleet is from the enemy port, the less chance the fleet has to interdict the supplies. There is a small chance a transport point will get sunk if the supply convoy is interdicted. Escorts have no such penalty as they are considered as being with the supply transport coming into the port.


3. Supply convoy that you can actually protect by directly attacking subs if this rule applies:

quote:

Submarine Fleet - Submarine units may base at a port with other naval units but may only travel outside the port with other submarine units. Submarine fleets may be attacked by surface fleets only if they border a non-ocean hex. Carrier fleets and air units may always attack submarine fleets.


< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 4/27/2020 9:50:24 PM >


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 45
RE: Naval attack. - 4/27/2020 9:53:17 PM   
ncc1701e


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Now, there are still things I do not understand in your rule:
1 transport for 1 port unlimited supply amount

And the above section that I have highlighted in red.

When I am reading all the reports, I have never seen any transport sunk. Could you please add the number of transport sunk when supplies are destroyed in the Supply Interdiction report?

And, when ships are attacking / defending, they should be damaged sometimes. As such, could you please add the information of the ships that have participated in the fight and have taken losses during the supply convoy attack?




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< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 4/27/2020 10:18:15 PM >


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 46
RE: Naval attack. - 4/27/2020 9:56:18 PM   
ncc1701e


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I assume the number of transport sunk should directly impact the below value.




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 47
RE: Naval attack. - 4/27/2020 9:59:14 PM   
ncc1701e


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One good idea in this thread:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4804105

The ability to turn off a supply route at a given time if you have too many losses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

For an example supply goes to Tobruk from Italy every turn is there anyway you can turn off the supply so that it stops going from Italy to Tobruk
Manstein63


That could perhaps be done by adding buttons in the below yellow section or doing the same nice button than for turning on/off the convoy routes where this is written Oslo, Stavanger, ...




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< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 4/27/2020 10:04:17 PM >


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 48
RE: Naval attack. - 4/27/2020 10:07:08 PM   
ncc1701e


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Also, can you please consider adding all the supply convoy attack of both sides in the Turn Report?




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 49
RE: Naval attack. - 4/27/2020 10:19:27 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

And, when ships are attacking / defending, they should be damaged sometimes. As such, could you please add the information of the ships that have participated in the fight and have taken losses during the supply convoy attack?


To illustrate this, today's report shows only air units that have participated and have taken losses.




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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 50
RE: Naval attack. - 4/27/2020 10:21:12 PM   
ncc1701e


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When this is ships vs ships, nothing is displayed. Like if ships do not take any damage!? This can't be the case.




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Post #: 51
RE: Naval attack. - 4/27/2020 10:58:09 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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That's why you attack the other navy. I do not want to force engagements and have players scream bloody murder. It is the players responsibility that if X fleet is disrupting your supply lines you should be attacking it on your turn. And they can do the same to you.

I did add that subs are hit with ASW during this turn because surface ships can't openly attack them.

As for the rest... I'll think about it.

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Post #: 52
RE: Naval attack. - 4/28/2020 6:44:33 AM   
OxfordGuy3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
I did add that subs are hit with ASW during this turn because surface ships can't openly attack them.


So which ASW factors attack supply port interdicting subs? Not convoy escorts, those are for resource convoys, so those of any enemy fleets (and air units too?) with 4 hexes of the port? Or is it something else? I'm a bit confused by this.

quote:


As for the rest... I'll think about it.


Please do, it needs to be made clearer what's going on with port supply and interdiction of it.

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Post #: 53
RE: Naval attack. - 4/28/2020 11:49:28 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

That's why you attack the other navy. I do not want to force engagements and have players scream bloody murder. It is the players responsibility that if X fleet is disrupting your supply lines you should be attacking it on your turn. And they can do the same to you.

I did add that subs are hit with ASW during this turn because surface ships can't openly attack them.


OK but if the subs are attacked, I hope they can defend themselves and inflict some losses. In that case, I would like to see a report like the following screenshot.

And, if this is ships vs ships, not ships vs subs, I would like to see the units involved to defend the supply convoy even if there is no losses on the warships, just on the transport ships.




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< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 4/28/2020 11:50:00 AM >


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 54
RE: Naval attack. - 4/28/2020 2:11:23 PM   
ncc1701e


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And, you will need to correct the wrong calculation of the number of transport in use for supplies. See here:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4804501


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 55
RE: Naval attack. - 4/28/2020 4:15:27 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Only things that can't be done manually will be automatic combat.
ASW vs subs ** this has been added as of yesterday
air sups vs bombers

manually on your turn...
air vs surface/CV
surface vs surface
CV vs CV



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Post #: 56
RE: Naval attack. - 4/28/2020 5:44:50 PM   
ncc1701e


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Great thanks!!!

About the following:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Only things that can't be done manually will be automatic combat.
ASW vs subs ** this has been added as of yesterday
air sups vs bombers

manually on your turn...
air vs surface/CV
surface vs surface
CV vs CV


Speaking of ASW vs subs, this is only when subs are considered in the ocean, right?
If the following rule applies, this is still manual on your turn, correct?

quote:

Submarine Fleet - Submarine units may base at a port with other naval units but may only travel outside the port with other submarine units. Submarine fleets may be attacked by surface fleets only if they border a non-ocean hex. Carrier fleets and air units may always attack submarine fleets.


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 57
RE: Naval attack. - 4/29/2020 12:15:30 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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Yes only at sea. So at the start of the opponent's turn enemy subs will interdict supply but have to defend vs the ASW of the ships and planes in the area. It might have to be adjusted for damage depending.

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Post #: 58
RE: Naval attack. - 4/29/2020 11:58:23 AM   
ncc1701e


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Great, can't wait to test this especially the return damage of the subs vs the attacking ships/planes. Also, there is a point I would like to raise: the oil consumption.

When doing escorts on convoy routes, this is costing ZERO oil because this is handled by the Escorts value assigned to one given convoy route.
Now, to protect your supply route, you need to actually move your fleet (Patrol Grp in particular).

In the particular case of the Mediterranean Sea, the Italian fleet needs to move a lot to protect their supplies when they are at war.
With their oil stockpile at the beginning (i.e. 1939), I think this is difficult.

That's why, I think that:
1. It would be useful to stop a particular supply routes. To save your fleet (both transport ships and warships) and your oil stockpile. You have the rule of "1 transport for 1 port unlimited supply amount" so perhaps this is not necessary to supply all ports every turn
2. We need to increase a little bit the oil stockpile of Italy. Historically, the Regina Marina ran out of fuel oil in late June 1942.

Thanks for your consideration

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 4/29/2020 12:00:40 PM >


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 59
RE: Naval attack. - 4/29/2020 5:02:11 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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The oil and naval situation is fairly balanced within the game mechanics.

The reason why I don't hammer oil with resource convoys is that
#1 they are slow and speed eats fuel exponentially
#2 the ships escorting were generally smaller than the fleet ships, and use less oil.

I found a record of fuel use from small ships to larger ones based on speed. It was mind blowing how much fuel a battleship uses when on an attack run. It is way more than most players think.

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