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RE: Is "Bocage" overhyped in war games?

 
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RE: Is "Bocage" overhyped in war games? - 4/25/2020 1:01:07 PM   
MrRoadrunner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Am I understanding you to say that the main reason that terrain in Normandy and Kursk were different was because the French farmers hadn't trimmed the hedges? Really?


You understand incorrectly.

The Germans used wisely what they had. They were fighting in a plain (the very same plain of Belgium, Holland... etc etc and Kursk, all the way to Mongolia). With natural ditches (ergo no need to dig them) Later in the Low Countries (same plain) they found other natural ditches (the canals). I don't know if they had a green wall there too.

All we know is that defence in late spring '44 managed to slow their enemies down. The very same army that had fought in Italy. Had the Red Army fought at the same pace to liberate their land... well, the Germans would still be fighting in the 50s a tactical withdrawal somewhere near the 1941 border.

You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

And yet, the bocage was not a problem in 1940

Overhyped is not an issue imo. A wargame should try to recreate a war that already happened. The Anglo-saxons of '44 had problems piercing that defence? Well, a game must reflect this.


Now I get it.

"None so blind as one who will not see."

RR

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(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 31
RE: Is "Bocage" overhyped in war games? - 4/25/2020 4:42:33 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

And yet, the bocage was not a problem in 1940



I totally missed this one. There was no campaign in France beyond the Seine River. I suggest you do two things. Actually read about the campaign and look at a map.

I'm going to say you were being sarcastic and give you the benefit of the doubt.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 4/25/2020 4:45:08 PM >


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(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 32
RE: Is "Bocage" overhyped in war games? - 4/25/2020 5:30:13 PM   
rico21

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
You understand incorrectly.

The Germans used wisely what they had. They were fighting in a plain (the very same plain of Belgium, Holland... etc etc and Kursk, all the way to Mongolia). With natural ditches (ergo no need to dig them) Later in the Low Countries (same plain) they found other natural ditches (the canals). I don't know if they had a green wall there too.

All we know is that defence in late spring '44 managed to slow their enemies down.
****
And yet, the bocage was not a problem in 1940

Overhyped is not an issue imo. A wargame should try to recreate a war that already happened. The Anglo-saxons of '44 had problems piercing that defence? Well, a game must reflect this.


I'm afraid that I'm still struggling to understand what point you are trying to make... Who exactly did the Germans manage to slow down in the late Spring of 1944? They didn't provide much more than a speedbump to the Russians in Bagration starting in June. You seem to be suggesting that the main reason the western allies struggled in Normandy was because they didn't attack as hard as the Russians? Also, while I'm not an expert on the 1940 campaign, I'm not aware that much fighting took place there in that campaign, or at least not before the campaign had already been decided. And, well, it was against the French




We in Normandy do not drink bleach!

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 33
RE: Is "Bocage" overhyped in war games? - 4/25/2020 7:50:07 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4383
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21
We in Normandy do not drink bleach!

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 34
RE: Is "Bocage" overhyped in war games? - 4/26/2020 7:04:28 AM   
rico21

 

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Joined: 3/11/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21
We in Normandy do not drink bleach!

Sorry, I couldn't resist...


Me too.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 35
RE: Is "Bocage" overhyped in war games? - 4/26/2020 3:11:04 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4383
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From: Washington, DC
Status: online
Touche!

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 36
RE: Is "Bocage" overhyped in war games? - 4/27/2020 5:42:22 AM   
altipueri

 

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There is an updated version of " Bocage Hell -1944 " scenario just been uploaded for TOAW players (The Operational Art of War)

It is in the TOAW scenarios and mods sub forum

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 37
RE: Is "Bocage" overhyped in war games? - 4/29/2020 9:39:32 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1786
Joined: 10/10/2005
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Many "bocage" were also filled w/ dead horses, refugee wagons, and other such, making it even more treacherous terrain at the time.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 38
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