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Drag ass SLOW! - 4/11/2020 7:59:30 PM   
PhilPugliese

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 4/11/2020
Status: offline
I'd never played this game before and I purchased the physical CD.
It had vXXXX.11 after the install but I updated right away to the latest (vxxxx.40) version.
I then found that it would seemingly hang upon launch.
However, I eventually discovered that after about 1/2 an hour it FINALLY made it to the screen where I could load a scenario.
Well, after waiting for an hour for the scenario to load, I gave up & killed it.
I'm going back to original version (vxxx.11) to see if it will run OK on the 8 processor, quad-core with SSD PC that bought last NOV-19.
Apparently it's not powerful enough for vxxx.40 which seems to require a mainframe super-computer!

Wish me luck!
Post #: 1
RE: Drag ass SLOW! - 4/11/2020 8:21:08 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4002
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PhilPugliese

I'd never played this game before and I purchased the physical CD.
It had vXXXX.11 after the install but I updated right away to the latest (vxxxx.40) version.
I then found that it would seemingly hang upon launch.
However, I eventually discovered that after about 1/2 an hour it FINALLY made it to the screen where I could load a scenario.
Well, after waiting for an hour for the scenario to load, I gave up & killed it.
I'm going back to original version (vxxx.11) to see if it will run OK on the 8 processor, quad-core with SSD PC that bought last NOV-19.
Apparently it's not powerful enough for vxxx.40 which seems to require a mainframe super-computer!

Wish me luck!


Yeah because all of the others that run it successfully all have super computers right? It would be better if you told people you had a problem and what it was so you could receive some proper help. Which I am so obviously not. I'm lucky if I can get my pants on the right way in the morning.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to PhilPugliese)
Post #: 2
RE: Drag ass SLOW! - 4/11/2020 8:24:35 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39035
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
What operating system are you running? WIN10? I'm going to suggest you use the compatability mode if you have one. I'm running TOAW as if I'm WIN8 and it's working so far.

_____________________________

"In an operation of this magnitude, some losses must be expected."
SAC Commanding General Curtis LeMay, circa 1964

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 3
RE: Drag ass SLOW! - 4/11/2020 10:12:22 PM   
Rescue193

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/13/2016
Status: offline
Actually Chaps...

It is probably not a super-computer that's required its more a case of making sure that the upgrade path includes v4.0.1.0.20 and I speak, well, write, from a little personal experience.

My own set-up is slightly non-standard in that I run TOAW IV on a Mac Mini using Windows 10 (yeuck!) via Parallels. When I installed v4.1.0.40 the damn thing simply wouldn't run - I even when I tried running Win 10 via Boot Camp to solve the problem. I fiddled about with various obscure things concerning Permissions, Admin and whatnots in that thing that Microsoft laughingly calls an Operating System (the "C/" thing stands for Chaos, Confusion and Calamity I reckon) as well as tweaking stuff in TOAW IV itself, but nothing worked. Then, after poking about on here for a while I came across a reference to patch X.0.20 which I had evidently missed. Once I had tracked the blighter down, reinstalled TOAW IV from X.0.11 all the way through to v4.1.0.40 and it worked like a charm! A little forensic investigation/speculation has lead me to conclude that when v4.0.1.0.20 was initially released it contained a glitch or two(forgive me if I'm mistaken about this) and v4.1.0.21 was a 'work around' while the problem was being fixed. But, it would appear, without X.0.20 then X.0.40 is, in some cases, pretty much dead-in-the-water.

While I accept that PhilPugliese's complaint was a little intemperate, I do understand his frustration. Similarly, having received kind and generous help from the sages of TOAW on here I can understand the annoyance that may be felt when reading his somewhat abrupt complaint. I'm a long, long way off being an expert on the game or Windows or even a Mac and I do find some of the 'chat' on here to be baffling but the game does work and, with a little patience and perseverance, problems can (almost always) be solved.

Try re-installing the whole v4 sequence Phil, I think you'll find the game will work without the need for a super-computer!

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 4
RE: Drag ass SLOW! - 4/12/2020 9:53:16 AM   
Shadrach


Posts: 722
Joined: 10/16/2001
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rescue193
But, it would appear, without X.0.20 then X.0.40 is, in some cases, pretty much dead-in-the-water.


4.1.0.40 is a patch, while 4.1.0.20 is the current base installer. Apparently a lot of people try upgrading directly from their CD base installer version (4.0.0.11) directly to 4.1.0.40 which causes all kinds of issues with hangs and the application going into the "not responding" state on startup.

The .20 patch when released required us to do a manual uninstall of the game first:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4564492

For some reason, some people on this forum still recommend to first install the ancient .11 CD version first, or even to *wait* for hours on first launch. Unless someone is on an old 486, there is nothing this game does on launch that would require a wait like that. It creates some folders and INI files, copies some fonts and sounds, it should take 10-20 seconds max on any PC made in the last two decades.

It's a BUG, plain and simple, made worse by the latest patch failing to address issues of upgrading from older versions than .20.

The latest versions of the game can be downloaded from the members area:
https://www.matrixgames.com/member/downloads/the-operational-art-of-war-iv
Recommended install order is BASE 4.1.0.20, then patch to 4.1.0.40. And no launching of the game after the base install!

Recommendation for the CD version is to pop it in the nearest plastic waste bin


_____________________________

OUW (Order of the Upgrade Wars)



There are folks out there with way too much time on their hands.
- Norm Koger

(in reply to Rescue193)
Post #: 5
RE: Drag ass SLOW! - 4/12/2020 11:10:36 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 4002
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadrach

Recommendation for the CD version is to pop it in the nearest plastic waste bin



They make ok coasters to protect table tops. Or you can use them if you are short of clay pigeons.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to Shadrach)
Post #: 6
RE: Drag ass SLOW! - 4/19/2020 9:46:27 AM   
Rescue193

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/13/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadrach

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rescue193
But, it would appear, without X.0.20 then X.0.40 is, in some cases, pretty much dead-in-the-water.


4.1.0.40 is a patch, while 4.1.0.20 is the current base installer. Apparently a lot of people try upgrading directly from their CD base installer version (4.0.0.11) directly to 4.1.0.40 which causes all kinds of issues with hangs and the application going into the "not responding" state on startup.

The .20 patch when released required us to do a manual uninstall of the game first:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4564492

For some reason, some people on this forum still recommend to first install the ancient .11 CD version first, or even to *wait* for hours on first launch. Unless someone is on an old 486, there is nothing this game does on launch that would require a wait like that. It creates some folders and INI files, copies some fonts and sounds, it should take 10-20 seconds max on any PC made in the last two decades.

It's a BUG, plain and simple, made worse by the latest patch failing to address issues of upgrading from older versions than .20.

The latest versions of the game can be downloaded from the members area:
https://www.matrixgames.com/member/downloads/the-operational-art-of-war-iv
Recommended install order is BASE 4.1.0.20, then patch to 4.1.0.40. And no launching of the game after the base install!

Recommendation for the CD version is to pop it in the nearest plastic waste bin




Well I never!

So, v4.1.0.4 is a patch whereas v4.1.020 was a base installer. Who’d have thought eh?

I mean, where on the Matrix site (or anywhere else) does it it say that? Where does it mention that one needs v4.1.0.20 to run v4.1.0.40? Would it have been being the wit of man to include a release note with the patch that said v4.1.0.20 is required to run v4.1.0.40? Could it not have been possible to mention that fact in BIG BOLD LETTERS on the Matrix website?

How are we lesser mortals, the mere Matrix customers rather than the Matrix Heroes (whatever that might mean?) of this locale, meant to intuit this small but salient piece of information? Osmosis? Telepathy? Talking Squirrels? A Tweet from Donald Trump?

Its interesting that one can download v4.1.0.40 from the Matrix Site without logging in but the v4.1.0.20 is greyed-out. Only by logging in can one get access to v4.0.1.20 but, even then, no mention is made in having to have installed the .20 before one installs .40. But, like I say, I’m not a member of the TOAW cognoscenti.

Having played the game from the earliest versions, through TOAW III. I've had TOAW IV from the beginning and installed v4.0.0.11, v4.0.1.23 and then v4.1.021 without trauma until it came to v4.1.0.40 when it came out on 21 November 2019 when I, like so many others judging by the messages on here, I hit the buffers.

I don’t know how, or why, I missed v4.1.0.20 but mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa maxima, I did. Perhaps, naively, I assumed that a download (v4.1.021) 0n 12 December 2018 would include everything contained in the download issued a mere 13 days previously (v4.1.0.20) on 29 November 2018. How foolish could I be eh?

It was only when I went back to Matrix and got hold of v4.1.0.20 and saw that it was called a “SetupRelease” rather than an “UpdateComp” (but one can only know that when one has downloaded it) thus I was able to workout what had happened. But, what I don’t understand is, given that this is a known problem that we techno-peasants encounter, why doesn’t the Slitherine Help Desk doesn’t know about it?

When I approached them they had me delving into Windows setups and mucking about with TOAW IV files but all to no effect. Surely if they knew about the problem all they’d have to say is: “Make sure you install v4.1.0.20 before v4.1.0.40 and the problem will be solved.” Of course, they wouldn’t even be approached in the first place if there was a note explaining that on the site. Or is that too blinding obvious to be worth mentioning here?

Over the years I found much helpful advice and guidance - including the Zen like quote from Lobster attributed to Norm: “… one truck is not one truck it’s any number of trucks…”. I don’t know if being a Matrix Hero entitles one to wear one’s underwear over one’s tights but I’m absolutely certain it doesn’t grant such heroes either the prerogative or the privilege to take a condescending and dismissive attitude towards members with quite legitimate queries no matter how terminally thick such heroes take such questions to be. Being subjected to an exasperated lecture concerning my evident stupidity is not appreciated. But I’m just a chump "wot pays ‘is money t’play the game". Hardly worth the time and effort of such a mega-intellect eh?.

I will admit to one error though. In my previous message (see 'quote' above) I qualified my criticism of x.0.40 Of course I was wrong, the qualification was unnecessary, without x.0.20 then x.0.40 is as dead as the famously deceased Norwegian Blue Parrot.

So long and thanks for all the fish.

PS

As far as the derisory remarks about CD-ROMs are concerned, might I suggest (tongue-in-cheek) someone looks at the TOAW IV Manual, page 5, 1.1 INSTALLATION, paragraph one, reads: “… to install the game insert The Operational Art of War CD into your CD-ROM drive…” so they still have a use beyond coasters I guess!

While on the subject of the manual and since this is my parting shot I thought I’d ask if anyone has ever stopped to consider that the reason why there are so many question on here is due to the fact that the manual is so woefully impenetrable. Its the Muppet Swedish Chef meets Jame’s Joyce’s “Finnigans Wake”, an adventure in obfuscation, the grit in the engine of progress, the detritus littering the path to enlightenment, completely lacking in the clarity, precision, and simplicity necessary to fulfil its function. Its a lead pipe masquerading as a lifebelt.

Thanks again to those who've provided help in the past. I appreciated it then as I do now.

(in reply to Shadrach)
Post #: 7
RE: Drag ass SLOW! - 4/19/2020 11:02:48 AM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 684
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline
From Shadrach:
"Recommended install order is BASE 4.1.0.20, then patch to 4.1.0.40. And no launching of the game after the base install! "


After many failures I found he is right and it worked - yet my instinct was to install base; run it to see it worked; then install patch.

How ironic that the one reason I ordered the CD and physical manual was so that I wouldn't be dependent on downloads ! Yet as we know now you have to download the 4.1.0.20.

Thank you Shadrach - many hours of my life were lost to my half baked installs.

(in reply to Rescue193)
Post #: 8
RE: Drag ass SLOW! - 4/19/2020 12:14:00 PM   
Shadrach


Posts: 722
Joined: 10/16/2001
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline
Altpueri: You're welcome, glad it helped you out

Rescue193: Apologies if my post came across as condescending, I did in no way mean it to be. But I know my style of writing tends to do that sometimes, my technical background makes me wrongly assume stuff, and I'm trying to get better at it, believe me

Also note that I don't work for Matrix and I'm just trying to help people out to the best of my ability.

quote:

How are we lesser mortals, the mere Matrix customers rather than the Matrix Heroes (whatever that might mean?) of this locale, meant to intuit this small but salient piece of information? Osmosis? Telepathy? Talking Squirrels? A Tweet from Donald Trump?


I completely agree - the responsibility to properly inform their customers lies wholly on Matrix. Users can't be expected to read the notes for every patch released since the beginning of time. For the latest patch notes they should always have something about the recommended install order, especially since 4.1.0.20 was kind of "special" and later made into a base setup installer. And they should be completely clear if a patch is cumulative or not.

As for my comment on "some people on this forum still recommend to first install the ancient .11 CD version first" I think those people know who they are

quote:

As far as the derisory remarks about CD-ROMs are concerned, might I suggest (tongue-in-cheek) someone looks at the TOAW IV Manual, page 5, 1.1 INSTALLATION, paragraph one, reads: “… to install the game insert The Operational Art of War CD into your CD-ROM drive…” so they still have a use beyond coasters I guess!


In this age of digital downloads, the unfortunate fact is that a CD-ROM is basically outdated the moment it's printed. Still they keep that stuff in the manual. At the least they should provide extra information on where to find the latest version of the digital downloads on the Members Area.


_____________________________

OUW (Order of the Upgrade Wars)



There are folks out there with way too much time on their hands.
- Norm Koger

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 9
RE: Drag ass SLOW! - 4/22/2020 10:40:52 PM   
Rescue193

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/13/2016
Status: offline
quote:

Rescue193: Apologies if my post came across as condescending, I did in no way mean it to be. But I know my style of writing tends to do that sometimes, my technical background makes me wrongly assume stuff, and I'm trying to get better at it, believe me

Also note that I don't work for Matrix and I'm just trying to help people out to the best of my ability.

quote:

How are we lesser mortals, the mere Matrix customers rather than the Matrix Heroes (whatever that might mean?) of this locale, meant to intuit this small but salient piece of information? Osmosis? Telepathy? Talking Squirrels? A Tweet from Donald Trump?


I completely agree - the responsibility to properly inform their customers lies wholly on Matrix. Users can't be expected to read the notes for every patch released since the beginning of time. For the latest patch notes they should always have something about the recommended install order, especially since 4.1.0.20 was kind of "special" and later made into a base setup installer. And they should be completely clear if a patch is cumulative or not.

As for my comment on "some people on this forum still recommend to first install the ancient .11 CD version first" I think those people know who they are /quote]

Shadrach,

Thank you, for you apology and, in return, please accept my apology to you for being somewhat abrupt in tone and language, I wasn’t raging against you but ‘raging against the machine’ that sent me off on a pointless wild goose chase for three months simply because the information I needed to make the latest patch work wasn’t made plain.

The fact that the solution was so clear, so simple and so straightforward made it all the more frustrating because it is not complex or difficult, it just a matter of doing the right things in the right order. However, to do that one has to know what the right things are and the right order in which order to do them and that’s what Matrix singularly fails to make clear.

When I read your explanation of “what was what” I found it infuriating because the information was ‘known to those that knew’ but utterly opaque to those who didn’t. The fault for that lies squarely at the door of the buffoons in Matrix and is absolutely nothing to do with you.

All the other stuff, about CDs and such like was a joke, but my sense of humour is obscure. I can recall loading early games (Harpoon was one them ) from3.5 inch disks! I still have them in box in the attic but any drive capable of reading them has long since disappeared.

Perhaps the saddest thing about this whole patch business is that I’ve lost interest in the game itself (and I dare say may other have been put off playing it). Although I had been working on an update one of the Market-Garden scenarios (note its “Market-Garden” not “Market Garden” the hyphen is important) and, maybe, I‘ll be returning to it one of these fine post “lockdown” days. But, for the moment, I’ done with TOAW IV, this patch business has left a sour taste in the mouth.

However, let me leave you with this little conundrum to puzzle over. Most, it not all, towed anti-tank guns in WWII were, by their nature, defensive, or ambush, weapons. They waited for the tanks to come to them and had virtually no offensive capability. Yet, the British “17 pounder”, arguably the most effective (and/or capable) anti-tank gun that any nation produced and used in significant quantities during the war, is always shown as having a greater offensive rather than defensive capability. How, in any war game simulation, can that possibly be justified?

Keep doing what you’re doing, it is appreciated.

Regards,

Rescue 193

(in reply to Shadrach)
Post #: 10
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