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RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version #4 4/30

 
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RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/3/2020 12:20:55 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

This Baltic scenario for blue does look terrifying .....


It gets much worse! I just added the Belarus S-300s last night. Not doing this to pile on, it's just what's out there. I couldn't ascertain if Belarus had S-400s or not, some reports say yes, they were given 2 Bns and some say, Russia wanted them to buy them and Minsk balked. So I just gave them the two S-300 Bns we know about. Now when I add the Buks along the Belarus-Polish border, Oy Vey!




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 31
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/3/2020 1:07:08 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

The only comment I can make is that the NATO surface group seem to be under escorted ...... and it is kind of aggravating that they’ve been at war for three weeks and there are almost no ready aircraft when I try to play this thing .... for blue there really aren’t very many strike and fighter aircraft at all ...


So a couple of points on this as to why and where this can go...

1. I did remove most of the Tomahawks on the three Burkes and load them out as Air Defense Vessels. Between the three of them there are only 24 Tomahawks, they are SAM heavy.
2. Two complaints I get about my scenarios are TOO many units and you chose the load outs for me. So as much as possible I try to set things up so the player has the opportunity to choose their own load outs for anything under six (6) hours and only provide missions as necessary (AAW-CAP, Helio ASW if in a hot environment). Can't seem to win here, one person says we've been at war for three weeks, why aren't the load outs and CAP set for me? and the other says, you loaded out AMRAAMS and I wanted Sidewinders on my, (place your favorite aircraft here).
3. Given the fighting on NATOs Front in the Baltics, Kaliningrad and Poland, yeah, just about every strike fighter/Multirole NATO has is going there! It's pretty much the Norwegian, Sweds and Finns on their own. BTW I actually resurrected Swedish and Finnish aircraft/radars that would have been destroyed in the opening scenario (Midnight Sun). I'm still thinking about cutting them back as they just would have been destroyed and un-salvageable after three weeks on the front lines against Russia.

So vessels, I just did what I did to alleviate the arguments that there were too many NATO vessels in Arctic Tsunami, I have no issues adding more escorts OR an additional NATO SAG. Give me some ideas what you would like to see? I'm thinking a mixed group, like the Standing NATO Maritime Group One (SNMG1) so it's not all USN! Was going to task that group to the Baltic, but something along those lines????

Back on my soap box of game scenario vs. simulation. While I try to balance the scenarios as much as possible I do also tend heavily toward simulation and no commander ever has everything they want. So trying to keep it in the larger picture of the war and world situation and also try to balance a scenario. That's why the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov is not present, with the loss of the dry dock PD-50 and December fire, IMHO, she is done.

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 5/3/2020 1:15:56 PM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 32
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/5/2020 3:57:17 AM   
magi

 

Posts: 1473
Joined: 2/1/2014
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Well I certainly agree that I prefer command as a simulation first in the game second… Because I can learn more that way… Which is meaningful to me especially as I am a lay person and a non-professional .....

I minimize the problem of a shortage of plausible escorts .... by combining the 2 ARG’s... with the two Burks in front... I move that group closer to the QE group which is slightly leading to the seaward side .... so now I have very good AAW coverage with both long and short range shooters.....
The only thing lacking would be an ASW frigate trailing to protect the rear .... so I added one LCS ... that I have trailing independently of the groups and I can maneuver him around ....

I did arrange the three subs heading for patrol about 90 nautical miles out front to do a sweep in front of the two groups heading towards Bodo... with the ASW helicopter patrols in front of the groups I am comfortably well covered ....

I am micro managing my air combat assets to focus on red recon and potential strikers ......

So though it’s early in the game for me I feel pretty comfortable unless I get totally overwhelmed by Russian AirPower ....

< Message edited by magi -- 5/9/2020 6:51:31 PM >

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 33
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/7/2020 11:47:12 AM   
gosnold

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline
I tried out the Russian side and I think I did OK.
A few notes:
- the S-300 at Banak is behind a mountain so it can't see anything, I had to make it move to a hilltop and then it massacred all the F-16s (so much so that it ran out of missiles)
- it makes no sense to not have the MPAs under my control. They run into NATO CAP because they don't synchronize with my planes, and spend their time a low altitude, reducing their radar and EcM range when I am supposed to be looking for enemy ships.
- The Oscar III is a monster, it sunk almost the entire Queen Elisabeth group by itself, including the carrier
- The other Oscar sank the other battlegroup
- The F-35 CAPs over the sea are a nightmare, I kept trying to get at the AWACS and MPAs only to have my Mig-31 get shot down most of the time.
- The LRASM is a nightmare too, the attack emptied my SAM supplies in the SAG and sunk only one ship. I think I was lucky.
- I think I managed to neutralize the ground-based F-35 up North by going after the ammo with a kh-555 strike
- I did not get any popup message.

SIDE: NATO
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
11x F-16BM Falcon MLU
8x F-35A Lightning II
3x P-3C Orion Update III
2x Nimrod MRA.4
2x Poseidon MRA.1
3x Ammo Revetment
4x MH-60R Seahawk
1x DDG 116 Thomas Hudner [Arleigh Burke Flight IIA Technology Insertion]
22x Lightning II [F-35B]
11x Merlin HM.2
4x Merlin ASaC.5 [Crowsnest]
1x R 08 Queen Elizabeth
1x F 236 Montrose [Type 23 Duke]
1x D 35 Dragon [Type 45 Batch 2]
1x Radar (Coastal ACSR)
1x Radar (S-244 HF)
1x Radar (AN/FPS-6A HF)
1x Airbus A.330-200 MRTT [MFF]
3x Radar (AN/FPS-117(V)5 Relocatable)
3x NASAMS II
1x P-8A Poseidon
1x A 136 Tidespring [MARS Tide class]
12x LCAC 1
2x LSD 41 Whidbey Island
12x CH-53K King Stallion
1x LCU 1646
2x LPD 17 San Antonio
1x T-AK 3008 2nd Lt John P. Bobo
8x LCVP
1x LCM-8
2x LCP
36x MV-22B Osprey
8x AH-1Z Viper [Super Cobra]
8x F-35B Lightning II
2x LHD 2 Essex [Wasp]
1x DDG 103 Truxtun [Arleigh Burke Flight IIA]
1x MH-60R Seahawk
1x T-EPF 1 Spearhead
1x S 6XX Suffren [Barracuda]


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
90x AN/SSQ-53F DIFAR
84x AN/SSQ-62E DICASS
43x SSQ-963D CAMBS VI
24x 370 USG Drop Tank
67x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
4x F21 Artemis
43x SSQ-926 ALFEA
72x SSQ-955 HIDAR DIFAR
9x 25mm GAU-22/A Equalizer Burst [30 rnds]
15x SSQ-981B [SSQ-801B Barra]
53x AN/SSQ-77B VLAD
73x AIM-120C-7 AMRAAM P3I.3
4x AIM-120B AMRAAM
12x AGM-84D Harpoon IC
5x Generic Chaff Salvo [8x Cartridges]
3x Stingray Mod 0
48x AGM-158C LRASM
59x MIM-120B NASAMS [AMRAAM]
7x AIM-132A ASRAAM
12x AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM P3I.2
150x Mk214 Sea Gnat Chaff [Seduction]
40x Mk234 Nulka
12x Mk59 Mod 0 Floating Decoy
18x Mk251 Siren Active Decoy Round
2x DLF(3) Advanced Inflatable Decoy
4x FDS-3 Floating Decoy
8x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Dual Spectral]
6x AGM-84K SLAMER-ATA
7x AIM-120D AMRAAM P3I.4
2x AN/ALE-70 FOTD
4x 20mm/100 Mk15 Phalanx Blk 1B Burst [300 rnds]
4x AN/SLQ-49 Rubber Duck
8x RIM-174A ERAM SM-6 Dual I
14x RIM-174A ERAM SM-6 Blk IA
3x Stingray Mod 1



SIDE: Russia
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x PL-877M Kilo
1x Radar (Tin Shield B [5N59S/36D6])
1x Radar (Tall Rack [55Zh6-1 Nebo UYe])
4x Su-27SM/SM3 Flanker B
3x Ka-27PL Helix A
6x MiG-31BM Foxhound
1x PLA-945A Sierra II [Kondor]
1x BPK Udaloy II [PR.1155.1 Fregat-M]
1x Il-78M Midas
5x MiG-29K Fulcrum D
1x A-50U Mainstay A
1x PLARK-949AM Oscar III [Antey]


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
88x SA-21b Growler [40N6]
112x RGB-NM-1 [Passive Omni]
96x SA-N-20b Gargoyle [48N6M]
2x TEST-71M [NATO TEST-83]
2x Generic Acoustic Decoy
5x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]
42x SA-N-7 Gadfly [9M38]
264x 5P-42 Filin laser-dazzler
19x AA-9 Amos [R-33S, SARH]
72x AS-15 Kent C [Kh-555]
32x SA-N-21d Growler [9M96D]
9x AK-130 130mm/54 Twin Frag Burst [2 rnds]
3x 30mm Twin Gatling Gsh-6-30K Burst [375 rnds]
18x SA-N-6a Grumble [5R55RM]
4x SA-N-11a Grisom [9M311K]
18x PK-10 Chaff [SR-50]
18x PK-10 Flare [SO-50]
3x PK-2 Chaff [TSP-47]
18x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
8x AA-12 Adder B [R-77-1, RVV-SD]
72x SS-N-26 Strobile [P-800 Onyx]
2x AA-11 Archer [R-73]
32x AS-20 Kayak [Kh-35U Star]
29x SS-N-19 Shipwreck [P-700 Granit]
4x AA-11 Archer [R-73M]
9x AA-10 Alamo A [R-27R, MR TSARH]
6x AA-10 Alamo D [R-27ET, LR IR]
4x AA-10 Alamo B [R-27T, MR IR]
1x AA-10 Alamo C [R-27ER, LR TSARH]
1x SA-17 Grizzly [9M317M]
1x SS-N-15 Starfish [RPK-6 Vodopad, UMGT-1 Torpedo]
9x SS-N-12 Sandbox Mod 2 [P-1000]
2x SS-N-16 Stallion ["RPK-7 Veter, UMGT-1 Torpedo]



SIDE: Sweden
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x Radar (PS-860 [SPS-48C])


EXPENDITURES:
------------------



SIDE: Finland
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
20x F/A-18D Hornet [F-18D]
1x AvGas (200k Liter Underground Tank)


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
49x Generic Chaff Salvo [8x Cartridges]
28x AIM-120C-7 AMRAAM P3I.3
2x AIM-9X Sidewinder



SIDE: Russia MPA
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
6x Tu-142MZ Bear F Mod 4
6x Il-38N May


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
122x RGB-75 [Basic Search, Passive Omni]
13x Generic Chaff Salvo [8x Cartridges]
33x RGB-55A [Track, Active/Passive]
46x RGB-41 [Search, Passive Omni]
24x RGB-48 [Search, Passive Directional]
20x RGB-25 [Track, Passive Directional]
88x RGB-15 [Refined Search, Passive Omni]
22x RGB-58 [Track, Active/Passive]
4x Generic Flare Salvo [4x Cartridges, Single Spectral]



SIDE: Biologics
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x Biologic Whale


EXPENDITURES:

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 34
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/9/2020 6:58:23 PM   
magi

 

Posts: 1473
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline
geezzz.... NATO got slaughtered.......
part of the reason is the 3 nato surface groups are spread out to far to offer mutual support.. and the 2 ARGs are under escorted.... so playing blue i combined the 2 ARGs in one group and moved them close to the QE group...

im still playing blue... and i rearranged a couple of things but not much.... i really like this scenario a lot...

< Message edited by magi -- 5/9/2020 7:10:02 PM >

(in reply to gosnold)
Post #: 35
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/10/2020 1:00:07 AM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

geezzz.... NATO got slaughtered.......
part of the reason is the 3 nato surface groups are spread out to far to offer mutual support.. and the 2 ARGs are under escorted.... so playing blue i combined the 2 ARGs in one group and moved them close to the QE group...

im still playing blue... and i rearranged a couple of things but not much.... i really like this scenario a lot...


Thinking about adding another NATO SAG, maybe NE of Iceland for the seaward flank or more likely just north of the ARGs that could give them more cover.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 36
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/10/2020 5:37:40 AM   
KnightHawk75

 

Posts: 513
Joined: 11/15/2018
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

quote:

geezzz.... NATO got slaughtered.......
part of the reason is the 3 nato surface groups are spread out to far to offer mutual support.. and the 2 ARGs are under escorted.... so playing blue i combined the 2 ARGs in one group and moved them close to the QE group...

im still playing blue... and i rearranged a couple of things but not much.... i really like this scenario a lot...


Thinking about adding another NATO SAG, maybe NE of Iceland for the seaward flank or more likely just north of the ARGs that could give them more cover.

Idk that might be overkill no? I mean in version two I wiped the russian fleet entirely in a second wave of using a dozen f-35's from the tf's with paveway4's, along with the last of the penguins and slammers (I wasn't expecting it to work but not only did it work some of the munitions weren't even needed). Never needed the extra sub and b1's you added in the latter version (though I like those additions), but again maybe I had really good rng on where everything happen to spawn allowing me plenty of time to wipe them off the planet without them ever knowing where my tf groups were, while still handling everything else. It did cost me 2 f-16's, but that's war and a great trade for sinking that SAG. The TF grouping, again maybe I got good rng, cause mine were all started with-in 100nm of each other (except the landing craft), but my strat was much like others eventually bunching them all up for mutual self defense which ultimately I never needed. Guess I should replay it from Russian side now before really forming an opinion on beefing up nato side even more.

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 37
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/10/2020 7:58:42 AM   
magi

 

Posts: 1473
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline
I think this is a great scenario .... I am really enjoying it ....
I’m playing blue and doing well so far I’m 3-4 hours into it .....
In the melee of massive red missile strike.... which took a lot of micromanagement .... when I was mixed up with the Sweds and the Fins.... The fins kept going hostile and then my planes would engage them .... I had to intervene a few times... I think they thought I was shooting at them instead of the red cruise missiles ..... I finally had to turn them on friendly ....
I destroyed the 2 S 400 sites it Banak... and some other stuff up there with a moderate cruise missile site .... because the S 400s were in a bowl so I came up behind them....

I’m doing well with what I have the trick is not letting red locate your surface groups.... as long as I can do that I will whup ass .... but I still have a lot of playtime left ....

< Message edited by magi -- 5/10/2020 8:01:23 AM >

(in reply to KnightHawk75)
Post #: 38
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/10/2020 2:18:49 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Idk that might be overkill no? I mean in version two I wiped the russian fleet entirely in a second wave of using a dozen f-35's from the tf's with paveway4's, along with the last of the penguins and slammers (I wasn't expecting it to work but not only did it work some of the munitions weren't even needed). Never needed the extra sub and b1's you added in the latter version (though I like those additions), but again maybe I had really good rng on where everything happen to spawn allowing me plenty of time to wipe them off the planet without them ever knowing where my tf groups were, while still handling everything else. It did cost me 2 f-16's, but that's war and a great trade for sinking that SAG. The TF grouping, again maybe I got good rng, cause mine were all started with-in 100nm of each other (except the landing craft), but my strat was much like others eventually bunching them all up for mutual self defense which ultimately I never needed. Guess I should replay it from Russian side now before really forming an opinion on beefing up nato side even more.


Great Thanks for the feedback! That helps! I thinking of replaying it today, but had another short Putins War scenario I'm working on today.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to KnightHawk75)
Post #: 39
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/10/2020 2:40:13 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

I think this is a great scenario .... I am really enjoying it ....
I’m playing blue and doing well so far I’m 3-4 hours into it .....
In the melee of massive red missile strike.... which took a lot of micromanagement .... when I was mixed up with the Sweds and the Fins.... The fins kept going hostile and then my planes would engage them .... I had to intervene a few times... I think they thought I was shooting at them instead of the red cruise missiles ..... I finally had to turn them on friendly ....
I destroyed the 2 S 400 sites it Banak... and some other stuff up there with a moderate cruise missile site .... because the S 400s were in a bowl so I came up behind them....


So before I say anything else, thanks for the feedback! Your help is always greatly appreciated !!!!!

quote:

I finally had to turn them on friendly


Yeah, that was an older version. I turned off the Collective Responsibility for everyone now.

quote:

which took a lot of micromanagement


Yes it did! take a look in the scenario editor how many independent strike missions that took, I think about 20 just to take care of that strike!!!!!

quote:

I destroyed the 2 S 400 sites it Banak... and some other stuff up there with a moderate cruise missile site .... because the S 400s were in a bowl so I came up behind them....


You know I keep hearing people say in the videos, without explaining how in the real world, the SAMs/radars got to the top of the mountain! Yeah, I get a fixed radar site, built over years, being there. I even get a small mobile unit POSSIBLY being there. I would like someone to explain how a Cheese Board Radar unit and S-400 TEL Bn get up there without roads!!!!!! So yes I knew that the location was going to be a limitation near Banak, I also looked over the terrain and roads in that area very closely and determined that is about where the Russians would have to put it. I have held my nose placing MPQ-64 Sentinels and M998 HMMWV Avengers/M1097 Heavy HMMWV Avengers on some steep terrain, along with some Russian BUKs, with an the OK those units MIGHT make it there . In reality most of this big equipment is IFR, I Follow Roads! So given placement where I believe a radar would never get to, but is more advantageous for the game, OR a location I think a real SAM commander would have to settle for in a combat situation, I'm taking the latter every time! Heck I saw one video with a mobile radar on the sharp ridge of a volcano! A goat would have trouble getting there, let alone a mobile radar! Now I understand it was for a tutorial, but folks have gotten the idea this stuff should be placed where it could never really get to!

Bottom line, real world commanders don't get everything they want, and the winning commander makes the best of the situation.

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 5/11/2020 12:26:51 AM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 40
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/10/2020 2:52:40 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
So this is not to argumentative, far from it, but to Illustrate the point. Honestly, other than in the
"bowl" near Banak Air Base, where could a Russian Commander get an S400 Bn and Cheese Board Radar unit?




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 5/11/2020 12:25:28 AM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 41
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/11/2020 9:59:59 PM   
magi

 

Posts: 1473
Joined: 2/1/2014
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"So this is not to argumentative, far from it, but to Illustrate the point. Honestly, other than in the
"bowl" near Banak Air Base, where could a Russian Commander get an S400 Bn and Cheese Board Radar unit?"

certainly geography dictates this.... norway would be a hard place to fight and take from thoughtful and well prepared defenders....

what is collective responsibility anyway....?


< Message edited by magi -- 5/11/2020 10:11:39 PM >

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 42
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/12/2020 6:19:40 AM   
KnightHawk75

 

Posts: 513
Joined: 11/15/2018
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: magi
what is collective responsibility anyway....?

Say the US fired at Russia but Finish aircraft see the missile and attack it. US sees this happen (someone attacked our missile!!) and now considers all of Finland side hostile, or the reverse happens. Turning off collective will generally make it so the only thing considered hostile is the one unit who fired on the missile - ie it's no longer holding all of Finland collectively responsible for the one attack. It's much easier to see this happen and re-mark one aircraft or one sam unit back to neutral vs the entire side.


< Message edited by KnightHawk75 -- 5/12/2020 6:23:15 AM >

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 43
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/12/2020 9:04:13 PM   
magi

 

Posts: 1473
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightHawk75

quote:

ORIGINAL: magi
what is collective responsibility anyway....?

Say the US fired at Russia but Finish aircraft see the missile and attack it. US sees this happen (someone attacked our missile!!) and now considers all of Finland side hostile, or the reverse happens. Turning off collective will generally make it so the only thing considered hostile is the one unit who fired on the missile - ie it's no longer holding all of Finland collectively responsible for the one attack. It's much easier to see this happen and re-mark one aircraft or one sam unit back to neutral vs the entire side.


Well said… Thank you sir ......

(in reply to KnightHawk75)
Post #: 44
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/13/2020 1:11:57 AM   
AndrewJ

 

Posts: 1906
Joined: 1/5/2014
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I just started this as NATO, and when you press play the Farargut, Truxtun, and Hudner immediately RTB because "Primary attack weapon (RGM-109E Tomahawk Blk IV TACTOM) now at less than 25%".

I suspect you will need to adjust the RTB settings if you want to avoid this.

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 45
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/13/2020 11:25:53 AM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
Huh? Never had this happen, interesting. Yeah will do.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 46
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/13/2020 11:52:11 AM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
So I just loaded it and your report didn't happen for me (checked all of the USN Vessels)! Did they launch TLAMs? I ask this because, the USS Vermont, which I know I had set the Doctrine to NOT fire on land bases is launching TLAMs! I know, for a fact, that I set all USN vessels to not attack land bases and for some reason they keep resetting themselves to "inherent." I say this because weird things seem to be happening with Doctrine these days.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 47
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/13/2020 11:59:58 AM   
BeirutDude


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YUP! Here is the scenario editor doctrine for USS Vermont, totally unchanged by me. Mission Doctrine is "Hold" as well. Now when I loaded the scenario under the play a game option that setting was Inherent! And Like I said, all three USN vessels stayed with their task groups. Something is funky with Doctrine with the recent builds! Maybe it us using the Opportunity Targets, but that shouldn't happen and I know when I checked it under the test run it was set to Inherent.

So in any case, reset the doctrine to Exhausted for primary Weapons




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 5/13/2020 12:08:00 PM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 48
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/13/2020 12:16:08 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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This is even better! After I just went in an tweaked, USS Vermont is firing Tomahawks, and reset to Inherent! So she is firing her Tomahawks at a land Target




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 49
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/13/2020 12:24:46 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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Yes there is definitely a bug. I...

1. Just went back in and reset the USS Vermont to Hold for Air and Land and No for Opportunity targets.
2. Started the scenario up until she was close to land (with teleporting too three tries)
3. She immediately started launching Tomahawks and her Doctrine settings were reset! See image.

THANKS you confirmed for me something I have been noticing lately.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 5/13/2020 12:25:05 PM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 50
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/13/2020 12:33:27 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
Putting in a Bug Report.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 51
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/13/2020 8:09:55 PM   
AndrewJ

 

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Just to clarify, in my case none of the ships launched TLAMs. Their low starting TLAM count simply triggered the RTB settings for munitions quantity.

But now that I try re-running it, I don't get the same behaviour. I've re-run it a bunch of times, and it has never happened again. So it seems to be an intermittent issue.

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 52
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/13/2020 8:34:39 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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quote:

Just to clarify, in my case none of the ships launched TLAMs. Their low starting TLAM count simply triggered the RTB settings for munitions quantity.

But now that I try re-running it, I don't get the same behaviour. I've re-run it a bunch of times, and it has never happened again. So it seems to be an intermittent issue.


Well I did adjust it. If you want a copy of the new adjustments one go under the bug report in tech support and its linked there. I wasn't going to do a new Play test version for this as I think it is a bug and not a scenario issue. Thanks for getting with me and thanks for looking at the scenario.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 53
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/13/2020 10:05:42 PM   
AndrewJ

 

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Joined: 1/5/2014
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Has anyone else noticed the Astute refusing to hold its course? All my other subs are working properly, but this one is switching to a dashed-line course and won't hold the designated bearing.

Edit: Okay, it's not the Astute, but it seems to be any sub in that piece of ocean. Really strange. Was there an exclusion zone there at one time?

< Message edited by AndrewJ -- 5/13/2020 10:17:40 PM >

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 54
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/14/2020 9:45:42 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Has anyone else noticed the Astute refusing to hold its course? All my other subs are working properly, but this one is switching to a dashed-line course and won't hold the designated bearing.

Edit: Okay, it's not the Astute, but it seems to be any sub in that piece of ocean. Really strange. Was there an exclusion zone there at one time?


No this has been happening since they added the Littoral and Deep water paths in the Doctrine. I try to use them but sometimes even if you have shortest path indicated the doctrine switches to one or the other. Drove me crazy when I was designing the Hormuz Scenario.

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 5/14/2020 9:46:06 PM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 55
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/17/2020 3:11:09 AM   
AndrewJ

 

Posts: 1906
Joined: 1/5/2014
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SITUATION

The war with Russia’s been underway for three weeks now, and Norway needs marines! I’ve been assigned to get two Marine ARGs, currently about 100 miles north of the Shetlands, plus two fast ferries 200 miles further SW, up to the Norwegian port of Bodo.

My main surface force is a small British carrier group, based around the HMS Queen Elizabeth, plus a single Burke in each ARG. I’ve got a good force of five SSNs, three of them near my surface groups in the south, and two more up north between Jan Mayan Land and the Norwegian coast. There’s also a single Norwegian SS on their north coast. My air forces include MPA, tankers, and AEW operating out of Iceland and the UK, and F-16s and F-35s at a number of air-bases along the length of Norway. My one credible anti-shipping strike is a pair of B-1s with LRASMs in Iceland. Alarmingly, I also have control of a single British SSBN out in the North Atlantic. Hopefully it won’t come into play…

Intel reports there’s at least one Russian SAG out there, probably formed around a modern Kirov and Slava, which means their anti-shipping missile power greatly exceeds anything I have, and their formidable SAM defences can keep out almost anything I can throw at them. Worse, they have at least one modernized Oscar, which can deliver a crushing 72 missile ASM barrage, plus several more SSNs and SSKs. There’s also the possibility of air attack, which may be difficult across Finland, Sweden, and Norway, but there’s nothing to prevent them from coming around Norway from the north.


PLAN

Normally I would try and stay out in the deep ocean, far from land, for as long as possible, but I’m truly alarmed by the possibility of running into an SSN or an SSGN ambush, especially if the Russians can detect me by satellite. Therefore, I reluctantly admit that I have to cede the open waters to the Russians.

My ARGs and the CVBG are ordered to turn east and head for the coast. The two ARGs will form up into one dense group, where their very effective short-ranged RAMs can provide mutual support against sudden SSGN attacks. The CVBG will also tighten up its formation, and proceed immediately in front of the ARG, hunting for submarines in its path. When the ships get within about 40 miles of the coast they will turn and head north towards Bodo, keeping over the horizon from any telescope-equipped spies on the coast. I suspect this course will actually put me at greater risk of bumping into the Kilos, but it will keep me further from the Oscars and their friends, and let me get support from (and give support to) land-based radar and fighter bases.



MPA from the UK and Norway will work to sanitize the path of the convoy and the Bodo unloading area, while the American P-3s out of Iceland will guard the seaward flank of the convoys. My three southern SSNs are sent scouting ahead of the convoys, while the two northern ones are ordered to perform a barrier patrol, looking for foes coming south. The little Norwegian SS is directed to come snorkelling south along the coast, and then guard the Bodo unloading area. With any luck, they will meet the arriving troops in a day and a half.


EXECUTION

As my ships change course and get underway, reports start coming in of heavy air combat over Finland and Sweden. The Finns are taking a pounding from the Russians, both from their fighters and from the heavy SAMs up near Banak. Before long some MiGs are spotted near the FEBA, trying to make strafing runs on my SAMs and radars, but those that do pay the price without achieving much.

I’m reluctant to send many of my planes up at first, fearing a major Russian attack on my airfields, and for the most part I keep them on alert in their shelters. I don’t want them down for reloading when the strike arrives. A few of my F-16s from Bardufoss try and interfere near the FEBA, but they are outranged by the Russian missiles, and spend more time running away than shooting. So, the Finns are left on their own for now. I’m a lousy ally…

It’s not long before my MPA and AEW get a solid contact on the enemy SAG, about 90 nm north of Andoya, heading generally SW at 14 kts. This actually means they’re heading in the general direction of the Suffren, so the Suffren and the more distant Vermont are sent on intercept courses to try and cut them off. If I can get in with an SSN, then the potent Russian air-defences will be meaningless.

However, the SAG is not alone, and my radars start picking up large slow-moving bogeys coming in from the north. Bears! The F-16s from Andoya head out, and over the next half a day they manage to make a rich killing on the Bears and Mays that are trying to support the Russian ships. The enemy aircraft have no escorts, and none of them survive long enough to come close to my ships or subs. The ASW helicopters around the Russian ships are a tougher target, because of the Kirov’s SAMs, but by coming in low the F-16s manage to kill them off one by one.

In the meantime, the Russians inflict some pain of their own. A massive flight of cruise missiles is detected coming in across Sweden, headed for Bodo. The Swedes get a few of them, but most are still swarming in. I’m faced with a choice. I could surge my fighters, but my air-to-air missile stocks are not plentiful, and I’m still very concerned about a major Russian air-strike. I don’t want to be caught on the ground reloading and out of shots when it arrives. So, I launch a few fighters to thin the pack of missiles, and rely on my SAMs to deal with the rest. This almost works, but when the SAMs are all gone a few missiles are still incoming. Two of my large hangars get smashed, which will have long-term maintenance implications, but my hardened shelters and bunkers resist the rest of the hits, and I don’t lose any aircraft on the ground.

The Russians also seem to have beat up most of the Finnish air-force by now, and their fighters start getting closer to Norway. When some MiG-31s are detected making high-Mach dashes in the direction of my coastal AWACS I realize I have to commit to the fight. F-35s out of Evenes, and later out of Orland, are sent to face them. (I keep Bodo’s fighters readied for local defence.) The F-35s do a really good job, and with their excellent range they are able to follow up into the edges of Russian airspace, knocking down a Mainstay and some tankers. This happens several more times over the next hours, and by the time a day has elapsed the Russian air patrols have stopped.

While the air fight is ongoing, the Suffren is closing on the enemy. The Russian SAG makes a few course changes, which throw off my intercept, but the Suffren periodically puts up a radio mast for updates, and by 4:30 in the arctic morning it is lurking undetected in the path of the Russian ships. A four-torpedo salvo at the Kirov is followed by another three shots towards the Slava. The first four all hit, grievously wounding the battlecruiser, but in the milling confusion, with ships going in all directions, the next three lose track of the Slava. One hits the Sovremenny, causing mild flooding, and the other two slam into the listing Kirov, detonating its massive missile magazines.

The Suffren discretely draws away while the disorganized Russians reform, but what the captain does not realise is that there is an ASW helicopter bearing down on the area where he fired the torpedoes. Fortunately, one of the Andoya F-16s is patrolling nearby, and he comes in low enough to scoop krill with his intake, shooting down the helicopter before it can reach the sub. Half an hour later, the Suffren turns back towards the advancing Russians, and this time a four-torpedo salvo sinks the Slava outright. The Suffren now only has one torpedo left, so the captain decides it is time to break contact with the remainder of the task group, and sneaks away inside the layer, while ordering wine and croissants for his jubilant crew.

This is a major coup for NATO. My task groups would have been in missile range within four hours, so the sinking of the two long-ranged heavy missile ships is a tremendous relief. The celebration is even greater nine hours later, when the Vermont arrives in front of the task group and sinks the remainder of them, clearing the way for my surface groups to continue advancing towards Bodo. Now only enemy aircraft and subs remain as a threat.

It's not long before we find the subs, as the HMS Talent, creeping about 60 miles north of my advancing convoy, gets a contact on a distant SSK, 16 miles to port. The captain decides to stick up a mast and call a P-3, and then launches a long-ranged torpedo shot anyway. The torp reaches its target, but duds out, glancing harmlessly off the terrified Kilo. The P-3 arrives moments later, and snipes the kill, much to the Talent’s disgust. My convoys continue to advance.

It’s nearly 21:00 on the 28th when another cruise missile attack is detected headed for Bodo. I’ve got no SAMs, but this time my ships are only 70 miles away. A pair of fighters are scrambled from each of my ships and land bases, and they are enough to converge on the area and shoot down the entire raid (with the help of the Swedes, whose Kallax airbase is right under the missile’s flight-path).

From that point onwards, I detect no further Russian activity. My ships arrive and anchor in the Bodo unloading zone, while the CVBG patrols the area, and my subs set up barrier patrols at the entrances to the “Bodo Bay” area. MPA, and the Vermont and Suffren patrol further out to sea, where I expect the Soviet’s nuclear sub force is lurking, but they find nothing but tuna-fish and whales. Unloading continues at Bodo, and by 10:00 on the 29th the Marines are ashore. Mission accomplished!


AFTERMATH

Looking around afterwards, I’m really glad I came inshore, because I would have been a lot closer to the Russian nuclear subs if I’d stayed out to sea. I never found a single one of them. They had moved much further south than I had anticipated, and by the second half of the scenario the bulk of my search efforts were to the north of their position. Some of them did pass almost directly under sonobuoys, but unfortunately my mission areas were so large that my planes were out of radio range of the buoys when this happened, and the contacts went unnoticed. Extra-large patrol zones are not always a good idea. I never found the other two Kilos either. My convoys passed through the eastern side of their patrol zone while they were in the west, and we never met.

All in all, an interesting and enjoyable scenario. Thanks for writing it.

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 56
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/17/2020 12:43:56 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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Nice AAR! Thank you! When I set the A/I for NATO I did things very much as you indicated. Any interest in playing it from the Russian Side? Of course there is he issue that you know the NATO force composition, Danged Spies!

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 5/17/2020 12:45:23 PM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 57
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/17/2020 5:44:34 PM   
AndrewJ

 

Posts: 1906
Joined: 1/5/2014
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A few more thoughts after looking around in the scenario a bit.


Active Sensors

I think you could make a strong case for using the active sonars (and even the active radars) of the big Russian surface group. Unless the NATO player makes some colossal errors with their AWACS and MPA, they will have radar contact on the group at all times, and will know exactly where they are. Even if the player loses every aircraft, NATO satellites will spot the group at regular intervals. Since it’s almost impossible for the Russians to hide, there’s no advantage to keeping their sensors off.

This is particularly true for the sonars. The Russians have two 40 nm active VDS sonars, including the excellent modern set on the Gorshkov. Since they were in passive mode, my subs were able to creep up within no-escape torpedo range (8 to 11 miles) without being detected. If the sonar was active, I would have been detected long before I could reach that range, and been bombarded by SS-N-15s and ASW helicopters. (ASW weapons free would be very helpful to prosecute active sonar contacts.) So, I think I would not have been able to make such ‘cheap’ torpedo kills of the entire task group if their sonars had been on.


MPA

The Russian Bears and Mays coming around the top end of Norway got absolutely slaughtered by the F-16s at Andoya, who could move in unopposed to take perfect shots at their leisure. I’m not sure there’s anything you can do to defend them in the southern reaches of their patrol zones, but maybe something can be done about the northern corner of Norway? Perhaps a few Su-27s on the Russian MPA side, operating out of Severomorsk 1 with light AA-12 loadouts, could patrol a small zone out to sea NNW of Skarsvag (still within SAM cover, maybe with a tanker out there too?). A long prosecution zone could allow them to head down the coast to attack F-16s picking on the MPA. It wouldn’t be perfect, but it might at least get an F-16 or two and give a few of the MPA a chance. If not, they’re pretty much on a suicide mission.


Nuclear Strike

The ‘Launch Blackjack Nuclear Strike’ event has the IsShown box checked, so the player will be warned of what’s coming in the message log. Unchecking it would prevent the player from learning what’s coming. (Or it could be given an innocuous or misleading name, if you want to keep it shown for troubleshooting purposes.)

In my case the mission didn’t happen (there’s about a 30% chance that it won’t occur – I got lucky), but I have to admit I would have been taken aback by the abrupt switch to nuclear war without any other feedback, in an otherwise conventional conflict. It might be interesting to have some intelligence messages about alarming rises in nuclear readiness posture on the Russian side in the hours leading up to the possible strike. It would certainly raise tension and anxiety levels for the player, which is always a good thing.

Out of curiosity, I ran the mission after the scenario ended. The bombers flew a strange zigzag course.



First they fired 34 weapons at the southern Finnish airbase, then 12 more at the northern Finnish airbase, and 6 at the northern Swedish base, turned west towards Orland, but then turned NNE before getting in range, fired 5 at various Swedish radars, headed up through Sweden past Bodo and Evenes, fired 1 at Bardufoss, 4 at HUMRAAMs, 1 at Tromso, turned back SSW again, and fired 13 at targets in the Bardufoss area (1 each at the 6 barracks at Setermoen camp!), fired 1 at Narvik, a massive 59 at Evenes, 1 at the Bunker inland from Bodo, and finally 1 at Bodo port and 6 at Bodo airfield.

I think the scale of the attack is a bit large. One hundred and forty-four 200kt nuclear warheads? Wouldn’t a couple of SRBMs at Bodo alone be quicker, more reliable, and send the same message?

It’s pretty clear that the AI is ignoring the ‘pre-planned targets only’ list you have in the mission, and the zig-zag up through Sweden gives the NATO player plenty of time to find and engage the bombers. Maybe sending the bombers on single-plane strike missions at specific airfields and ports would give better results? Turning off ‘allow off-axis attack’ may be necessary too, to allow the quickest and most efficient route to the target.

I wonder if there’s any way to make a message event that triggers when a nuclear detonation happens, to simulate satellite warning when the bases in Finland and Sweden go up in smoke? The player may not notice this happening off-screen, but I suspect in reality the news would get transmitted very rapidly to all commands.



Other Items

The Orland AEW and Orland Tanker missions use the same set of RPs. (Intentional?)

The Nanuchkas are not assigned to their patrol mission, and remain stationary in the north.

The Russian fighters were making strafing runs on Finnish airfields and my SAM line along the FEBA, which lead to several unnecessary losses. I’m not sure if you wanted this, since these are AAW patrols and intercepts?

The HUMRAAM units need to have their radar inserted as a sensor in the unit itself, not as a single external unit, otherwise they cannot fire.

Scenario description typos in red text: “Surface ships with missions teleport, please run the scenarion for 5 seconds before assinging missions.”

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 58
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/17/2020 5:46:49 PM   
AndrewJ

 

Posts: 1906
Joined: 1/5/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Any interest in playing it from the Russian Side? Of course there is he issue that you know the NATO force composition, Danged Spies!


Yes, both sides looked like interesting situations. But once I know the layout of the other side, it stacks the odds heavily in my favour, as you mentioned.

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 59
RE: Putins War The Bodo Express, 2022 Play Test Version... - 5/19/2020 12:58:09 AM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1655
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
Thanks for the feedback in the post above ( the long one) been up since 5 a.m. and falling asleep so will address tomorrow but like some of he suggestions. Sensors are an interesting fight, Sometimes we were in ENCOM Alpha during the cold war, but other, like you said, why bother, because Mays were overflying us and we had a SAM Kotlin as our plane Guard!

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 60
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