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OT - The New Coronavirus Part II

 
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OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/7/2020 8:25:55 PM   
warspite1


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As per comments from Pip I am opening this up. Curtis Lemay if you want to post your numbers (which appear important to you) then I am not going to comment further and play any part in getting this thread locked, that is not fair - we can agree to disagree so my apologies.

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Post #: 1
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/7/2020 9:31:53 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Do we really need a second part?

You wake up in the morning knowing nothing about a subject. By the afternoon you've written an essay in the tone of those who have studied the problem for years...

... welcome to the world of armchair epidemiologists.

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Post #: 2
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/7/2020 9:48:48 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Do we really need a second part?

welcome to the world of armchair epidemiologists.


warspite1

I have no idea. If the thread is populated then probably yes, and if not, then probably no.

I don't recall seeing posts by anyone who believed they are an expert on the subject - and writing in that vein - but maybe there was and I missed it.

But if we all need to be experts about everything we post about then the number of threads on this forum would be pretty small wouldn't they?

So anyway, I'm sure the need (or not) for the thread will become apparent in the coming days - after all, coronavirus doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 3
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/7/2020 10:33:20 PM   
MrsWargamer


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It seems to go in extremes.

I have not heard of any local deaths, in a way.
But in the nearby town of Bobcaygeon, 1/3 of a nursing home's residents have died from it.

It is being very brutal to anyone over 60.
It is being very harsh on the delicate, fragile, and the vulnerable.

And here in North America, too many of the under 40 seem to be insisting on going about life as if it was normal. Ignoring warnings about congregating, insisting on not reducing their activities, and in the process, not impeding the spread of the virus.

It's not about whether it will kill you, it's about slowing the spread so it doesn't kill more than it might kill.

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Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
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Build models 20% of the time
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RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/7/2020 10:41:28 PM   
RangerJoe


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It also means that if you don't feel well, stay home. A lawyer went to a party and infected at least 50 people if not 120. Then there was a birthday party where 50 or more people got infected.

But now that the treatments are known as well as at least one preventative measure, things should improve.

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Post #: 5
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 4:44:40 AM   
sPzAbt653


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I still get confused over the whole entire picture and everything that is going on. Then to make it worse for me, Trump comes along a few days ago and says that the next week [this week] will be horrific. WTF? What does that mean, and how does he know? What does he base such a statement on?

And then today, we are told that today was in fact the worse day ever with many more people dying all over the USA. What? I know that Trump only knows what he is told, so who told him this and why and how do they know? What is going on?

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 6
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 4:48:26 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Do we really need a second part?

I'd like to continue to have a place where this multi-continental community can report on their experiences, such as Red's and Falvo's posts, which are very interesting and helpful.
It's great to have a global group of folks that we are familiar with.

I hope that the numbers folks open their own thread for that stuff as it is a different topic.

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 7
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 5:09:03 AM   
Pvt_Grunt

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

But in the nearby town of Bobcaygeon


That's the name of a song, I didn't realize it's an actual place.
Never too old to learn are we?


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Post #: 8
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 6:55:20 AM   
RichG

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The 5G theory is fun and interesting


No it's not 'interesting' it downright stupid and does not bear the most basic of scientific / engineering scrutinizing.

The problem is there are idiots here in the UK (and probably elsewhere) who have taken it serious and are burning down 5G masts. The very same masts that our emergency services rely on - yes that includes ambulances who are struggling enough with this crisis.

That is certainly not 'fun' - in any sense of the word!

Now I hope Pip closes this thread again, before more BS ideas get spread.

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Post #: 9
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 7:54:41 AM   
rico21

 

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I find it scandalous that those who closed the first thread will come back here, shame on you and go play elsewhere!
I do not greet you gentlemen!

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Post #: 10
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 9:43:10 AM   
JosephM

 

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Hello Guys,

Just a friendly warning that we are monitoring the forums as usual. Threads discussing the impact of this virus are acceptable, but within our normal terms. So try to avoid politics and especially as Pip said any unproven conspiracy theories. To make all aware, there is no link between Covid and 5G, and to suggest there is one is beyond silly. One is a pathogen passed between people and the other is radio waves
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52168096

Then for "is 5G more harmful to your health?" please see the below article, which states that 5G uses less radiation than 4G and also it is non-ionising radiation, so a low risk to health
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48616174

This forum is not the place to discuss ludicrous conspiracy theories, and please avoid such unproven nonsense in your life regardless. Our thoughts go out to any affected by the virus and hopefully the worst of it will pass soon all around the world

< Message edited by JosephM -- 4/8/2020 9:44:06 AM >

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Post #: 11
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 11:14:44 AM   
sPzAbt653


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I didn't say anything other than there needed to be proof and I asked if there was any. I didn't put forth the idea nor did I support it. I don't understand the violent reaction.

Similarly, why would anyone get upset if some folks said the Earth was flat? Mull it over and have some fun with it. Ask for the proof, then have some more fun. No reason to crucify anyone. Plus, I wasn't involved in the other thread that got closed down, so I would put forth that Rich, Rico and Joseph are all out of line. Lighten up !

(in reply to JosephM)
Post #: 12
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 11:33:25 AM   
rico21

 

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Coronavirus: how conspiratorial rhetoric diverts science during an epidemic.
Investigation "Citizen investigators", extremist activists or populist politicians cite scientific studies in support of their sometimes conspiratorial statements.
their sometimes conspiratorial remarks.
The crisis due to the new coronavirus has been polluted by numerous information sources based on incomplete, flawed or truncated scientific studies.
The crisis due to the new coronavirus has been polluted by numerous information sources based on incomplete, flawed or truncated scientific studies. STR / AFP

References to a study that has been pre-published and then withdrawn, a biological patent misinterpreted, or even links to scientific pseudo-portals with oriented content ... since the beginning of the health crisis, countless false articles and conspiratorial videos cite scholarly studies in support of their demonstration. And successfully.

Very popular on social networks, they rallied 26% of French people to the conspiracy thesis of the virus created in the laboratory, according to an IFOP / Conspiracy Watch poll. “We are in the pantomime of serious scientific discourse. And for many people, this is an illusion, "laments Rudy Reichstadt, director of Conspiracy Watch, an information website specializing in the fight against conspiracy.

Let's take an example that has been widely circulated on social networks and elsewhere: a real-fake television news program, which explains that the virus responsible for Covid-19 would not be natural, but would have been created by a laboratory funded by billionaire George Soros to annihilate the Chinese and Japanese populations. He summons two medical experts, a list of biological engineering patents, and a sophisticated study from 2007 on the human enzyme to which coronaviruses cling.

What if this smoking theory was accredited by science? You have to take the time to dig to realize that no: the specialists are not; the patents shown have no relation; the pointed study was read askance. Regardless, this video montage, posted online by the far-right Swiss conspiracy site Kla.tv, was among the most shared links in France on Facebook in early March.
A classic of conspiracy…

The reference to scientific studies is a classic rhetorical figure of conspiracy theories, explains Marie Peltier, historian and author of Obsessions: behind the scenes of the plot plot (Inculte, 2018).

"It is a question for conspiracy ideologists to both criticize all authoritative speeches, especially scientific ones, and at the same time use them to discredit speeches that are hostile to their theses. All of which draws the reader into a very large number of references, often contradictory, which maintain a real paradigmatic doubt. "

Julien Giry, doctor of political science at Rennes-I University, traces this strategy back to conspiracy theses that appeared in the 1960s after the assassination of John Kennedy, "with quotes, academic titles, footnotes from page ".…
... revitalized by the explosion of prepublications

The big news is the recent evolution of academic practice, with its race to the number of publications and especially the explosion in the 2010s of open platforms, like bioRxiv, where innumerable articles are sent which n have not been peer reviewed, as required by peer-reviewed journals.

"You can put in studies that are much less solid and anyone can go and get them and interpret them in their own way, without having the rigor or the skill to distinguish a simple four-page study from a scientific analysis of scale peer review ”, worries Alexandre Moatti, science historian at Paris-Diderot University, author of Alterscienc: postures, dogmas, ideologies (Odile Jacob, 2013).

It was thus on the bioRxiv site that, at the end of January, an Indian pre-study on "insertions with a strange similarity" between SARS-CoV-2 and HIV was identified and taken up worldwide by the complosphere in order to promote the thesis of 'a virus created in the laboratory. It has since been screened by scholars and its own authors, but continues to be cited as a reference by proponents of the thesis of a laboratory virus.
Experts who inflate their titles

This mobilization of science is indeed one way. "Knowledge is exclusively put forward when it goes in the direction of the desired thesis, notes Julien Giry. The rest are dismissed on the pretext that they are agents or useful idiots of the plot. Selective sorting is carried out. "
conspiratorial websites and YouTube channels even have their own expert address books compatible with their theses, the legitimacy of which is readily exaggerated. "These heterodox scientists express themselves outside their sphere of expertise or inflate their titles. They are presented as visionary geniuses, while their positions are often ultra-marginal or even non-existent in the scientific world, "specifies Mr. Giry. This is the case of Andrew Wakefield, an anti-vaccine figure, who is actually a gastroenterologist.

Conversely, an enemy for a day can turn into an ally for the occasion. So while conspiratorial spheres usually throw anathema against mainstream television media, they recently relayed a 2015 report from Italian television RAI on experiences of Chinese virologists on bats.

"As always in conspiracy, what we discredit can also become an argument when it serves our own posture," says Marie Peltier. It is in this relationship of ambivalence to speeches of authority that one of the crux of the problems of current disinformation lies. "
Good scientists and bad scientists

This rhetoric is all the more devious since, unlike a scientific approach, it leaves little room for contradiction and debate. As Stephan Lewandowsky, professor at the University of Bristol puts it with humor:

"A conspiracy theorist receives [the evidence against his ideas] as evidence of a larger conspiracy (to create a world government or whatever) that involves government, justice, Soros, and anyone who has one day was in the same supermarket queue as Al Gore in the 1970s. ”

These oriented readings of scientific work often lean against a Manichean vision of the world. "There are the good scientists and the bad", quips Rudy Reichstadt, who is surprised at the violence with which are treated on social networks the people who criticize Professor Didier Raoult, infectiologist criticized by his peers for his methodology, but very popular especially with some conspiracy theorists. They are accused of being part of a large pharmaceutical conspiracy, even described as "collaborative scientists", chokes Mr. Reichstadt.

"Raoult has become the providential man for many people. People say he has a solution, period. There is an anti-scientific temptation there. "
Experts victims of online harassment

The conspiratorial rhetoric, demanding, impervious to criticism, seems to have definitively plagued the public debate. To the point of giving rise to waves of uninhibited intimidation. In February, the Twitter account of the far-right conspiracy site ZeroEdge was suspended for "harassment". He accused a Chinese researcher at the Wuhan Institute of Virology of creating the Covid-19 virus, publishing his personal information and inviting his community to "visit him".

In France, Karine Lacombe, one of the many scientists who warned against the lack of scientific evidence of the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine against Covid-19, was the subject of an online harassment campaign linked to her links of interest with pharmaceutical laboratories. She ended up closing her Twitter account.

In the United States, Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases, was one of the first to sound the alarm and request emergency containment measures to fight the coronavirus - in despite the reassuring posture of Donald Trump. Fauci, the chief health adviser to the US administration, has been the subject of multiple conspiracy charges on social media, reports the New York Times, and is now living under protection.
"Science is misguided in all directions"

Behind these derivatives, a reality: the conspiracy activity is often carried by political objectives. In mid-March, Chinese Foreign Minister Zhao Lijian shared a link to Global Research, a bogus scientific portal known for spreading conspiracy theories, because it served China's anti-American rhetoric. For Marie Peltier, "conspiracy has become a real political weapon and some people simply use it for mercantile or electoral purposes".

Certain spheres are specialists in the matter. According to American biology researchers Jedidiah Carlson and Kelley Harris, the far right is the most active non-academic community on bioRxiv, and the most influential in the mediatization and decontextualization of scientific studies. In France, voters in the National Rally are the most susceptible to conspiracy theories, and Marine Le Pen recently deemed it "common sense" to question the origin of the virus.

However, the profile of conspirators is not reduced to a political camp. “Antivaccines, there are also many on the left. As for the "yellow vests", they are not specifically far-right, "said Alexandre Moatti. It is important to distinguish two very different types of approach, says Julien Giry:

"Far-right organized groups have know-how and expertise, almost a legitimacy to disseminate conspiracy theses. But they should not be put on the same level as those which I call the citizen investigators, who start from a given event, ask questions, which is healthy, and lead to sometimes conspiratorial hypotheses. "
The challenge of scientific mediation

Between the two, a continuum exists, fueled in France by a year and a half of social tensions, "balkanization" of information and questionable public speaking. "We cannot say that the government is a conspiratorial, but he too claims untruths in scientific form to mask a form of imperitia, when he claims that we do not need masks", recalls Alexandre Moatti, sorry to note that "at the moment, science is misguided in all directions".

Therefore, what scientific mediation to oppose this almost generalized diversion of science? That’s the whole point, as the era of all-video and the sensational algorithms of YouTube are breeding grounds for teasing and untruthful montages. "These speeches compete with a popular scientific popularization. But it's up to all of us to educate people to tell the difference between the two. And popular science videos on YouTube, that too! Recalls Mr. Moatti. And to cite the intervention on France Culture by the infectiologist Didier Sicard about the animal origins of the virus, as an example of pedagogy.

"The most extreme and caricatured cases are not personally those which worry me the most, because one can relatively easily contradict them by argumentation, estimates Marie Peltier. Distrust is not easily contradicted. "

Newspaper "Le Monde".

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 13
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 1:07:18 PM   
ncc1701e


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OK, can we close this second thread now?



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You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 14
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 1:19:26 PM   
RangerJoe


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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: online
It would probably be a good thing.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 15
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 1:38:49 PM   
MrRoadrunner


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I rarely agree to censor anything but this one needs locking up.

The "rules" were set. No conspiracy theories or politics. And yet?

Seems the "children" cannot control themselves?

Warspite1, nothing against you. You tried.
It's the others who could not restrain themselves?

Stay safe to all and good gaming!

RR

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Post #: 16
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 2:37:42 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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From: Houston, TX
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Today's worldwide figures:




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 17
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 3:07:00 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 11966
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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They are solving problems with the corona virus. There are two treatments that I know of plus a vaccine that may provide some protection against this virus as well as other diseases. There are vaccines being tested now.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 18
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 3:23:13 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

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I have deleted a number of posts. As Joe said, we are monitoring as usual. I was pretty clear in the last thread about why it was closed. We will be deleting posts which go outside personal stories or other reasonable community discussion.

Cheers

Pip

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Post #: 19
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 3:36:07 PM   
z1812


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I would like to see this become an information page reflecting fact instead of personal opinion, or personal theories.

This is an article outlining the difficulty of diagnosing covid-19.

https://nationalpost.com/news/anything-can-be-covid-19-as-pandemic-grinds-on-doctors-find-early-definitions-of-disease-were-too-narrow?

(in reply to PipFromSlitherine)
Post #: 20
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 3:38:15 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/doedelighed-skal-formentlig-taelles-i-promiller-danske-blodproever-kaster-nyt-lys

For those of you willing to read Danish (Probably a minority).

Danish blooddonors were tested for antibodies, to determine how big a percentage of the population had been infected in Denmark. The number was 22 out of 1487. This, when a few grains of salt have been taken for inaccuracy of testing and other stuff, gives the total of Danes that have been infected to 127000. A number much bigger than thought. 203 Danes have so far died from the virus.

The interesting conclussion is then that the deathrate is as low as 0,16 percent.

Now there is some good news for all of you :)

(in reply to PipFromSlitherine)
Post #: 21
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 3:54:03 PM   
MrRoadrunner


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83,471/1,447,466 = 5.7%

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― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 22
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 4:06:52 PM   
Red2112

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

I have deleted a number of posts. As Joe said, we are monitoring as usual. I was pretty clear in the last thread about why it was closed. We will be deleting posts which go outside personal stories or other reasonable community discussion.

Cheers

Pip


Sure. I don´t think I said anything that wasent in cue with whats going on. What is reasonable to you, is disrespectful to me and those who have lost loved ones. Imposing your Ideologies is your decision as its your forum/store, but shows that you are no different. I will do like wise with my money and time here, from now on...

Your team should have stayed away from personal opinions, or inclinations as a company.



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Post #: 23
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 5:26:54 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

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Sorry if you feel disrespected, but I was very clear about the reasoning for the locking of the last thread yet you immediately posted more conspiracy links.

Cheers

Pip


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Post #: 24
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 5:28:16 PM   
balto

 

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Is there a way that those that only spread doom-and-gloom, Matrix can insert where it says "Matrix Legion of Merit" insert instead "Matrix Legion of Dongs?" And leave it forever.

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Post #: 25
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 5:36:18 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

Is there a way that those that only spread doom-and-gloom, Matrix can insert where it says "Matrix Legion of Merit" insert instead "Matrix Legion of Dongs?" And leave it forever.

Everyone is on edge, but let's keep things civil please.

Cheers

Pip

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Post #: 26
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 8:30:37 PM   
MrsWargamer


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Benefit of being a woman, is I don't need to argue.

I'm always right. Trust me, always right. If you are smart, you'll agree, I'm always right.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to PipFromSlitherine)
Post #: 27
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/8/2020 8:52:58 PM   
rommel222

 

Posts: 660
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Greetings MrsWargamer,
You have support:
https://www.mrt.com/columnists/article/10-Rules-of-Life-can-be-condensed-to-The-woman-7451768.php

But I remind my wife that I do not follow those tenets.
I got her the Dodge Charger out of spare change (now I am broke and have to teach another year).

(in reply to MrsWargamer)
Post #: 28
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/9/2020 3:11:31 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
Today's worldwide figures:




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to rommel222)
Post #: 29
RE: OT - The New Coronavirus Part II - 4/9/2020 3:19:23 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1314
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
89,915/1,502,618 = 6%

_____________________________

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― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 30
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