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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

 
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/14/2020 6:17:27 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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The campaign changes will only show on a newly started game. Whereas continuing any previously saved games, under the old incorrect values, will still show the older incorrect values.

Does this explain it?

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Post #: 31
RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/14/2020 6:52:48 PM   
Markiss


Posts: 264
Joined: 8/29/2018
From: US Midwest
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

For naval units spotting land units, I can't seem to be able to find the original thread on this where it was discussed in more detail, but essentially it stems from the idea that players were using cheap units to transport them to use as spotters of hidden enemy land unit positions, e.g. along coasts as well as on islands for the world map, and that it was also debatable if naval units in general should be able to spot hidden land units along coasts and on coastal positions on islands etc.

From memory it was argued it gave too much of an advantage to naval units in this sense, where realistically those units would only truly be spotted with air or by land units via overland movement or from being amphibiously transported and dropped off etc.

In the end it doesn't stop you from attacking these coastal units, they just need to be spotted first, and it helps to eliminate the "gamey" tactics that otherwise prevailed in these situations.





The issue that drove this change was micro-landings. The ability to drive up and down an enemy's coastline looking for empty cities, and then making single-unit nuisance landings had ruined the game for many people.

I find it ironic that some of the very people who created this gamey tactic are now complaining about the change that their own actions forced to be implemented. Honestly, it is the people who are constantly pushing the rules to the breaking point looking for exploits that force this kind of reactionary change from the developers. This never needed to come up, but due to some peoples behavior, it had to be done. Italy was being forced to surrender within a couple turns of entering the game consistently, at least by certain players, by doing this very thing. If people hadn't started doing it, the fix would not have been necessary.

And it never made any sense for ships to spot land units. So I drive my battleship within a few miles of the coast. Cliffs, buildings, hills, and vegetation will limit the view inland to a few hundred meters. How can you tell what land units are stationed there, and their strengths and dispositions? You can't. Especially since the hexes on the coastline actually extend many miles inland. Ships can be spotted out to sea for many miles from land, but ships cannot see inland in any meaningful way. And submarines? Give me a break.

Nothing stops you from bombarding a resource. As far as the supposed loss of game balance from ships not being able to bombard units without spotting them first, I have never noticed these bombardments to have much of an effect. If you were counting on that to save you, you're doomed anyway.

Since this hasn't even started working yet, lets see how it goes. Maybe once a hex is bombarded by one unit, any units in it could be revealed. This would allow a ship to illuminate one hex per turn, not an entire coastline. Maybe that would work.

Let's try to find a way to make it work instead of returning to micro-landing hell. That is NOT the answer.


< Message edited by Markiss -- 4/14/2020 7:06:15 PM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 32
RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/14/2020 7:57:40 PM   
nnason


Posts: 469
Joined: 3/4/2016
From: Washington DC Metro Area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

The campaign changes will only show on a newly started game. Whereas continuing any previously saved games, under the old incorrect values, will still show the older incorrect values.

Does this explain it?


Most Likely. The game where the values returned to correct values was started under 1.17.00 or .01.
The game where the values didn't return I am pretty sure was started under 1.17.02


I am going to restart both games. The second game where values returned to the correct values we played a number of turns with the wrong values and well it made a significant difference.

Thanks for your help.

_____________________________

Live Long and Prosper,
Noah Nason
LTC Field Artillery
US Army Retired

(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 33
RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/14/2020 8:08:36 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 927
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Markiss



The issue that drove this change was micro-landings. The ability to drive up and down an enemy's coastline looking for empty cities, and then making single-unit nuisance landings had ruined the game for many people.

I find it ironic that some of the very people who created this gamey tactic are now complaining about the change that their own actions forced to be implemented. Honestly, it is the people who are constantly pushing the rules to the breaking point looking for exploits that force this kind of reactionary change from the developers. This never needed to come up, but due to some peoples behavior, it had to be done. Italy was being forced to surrender within a couple turns of entering the game consistently, at least by certain players, by doing this very thing. If people hadn't started doing it, the fix would not have been necessary.

And it never made any sense for ships to spot land units. So I drive my battleship within a few miles of the coast. Cliffs, buildings, hills, and vegetation will limit the view inland to a few hundred meters. How can you tell what land units are stationed there, and their strengths and dispositions? You can't. Especially since the hexes on the coastline actually extend many miles inland. Ships can be spotted out to sea for many miles from land, but ships cannot see inland in any meaningful way. And submarines? Give me a break.

Nothing stops you from bombarding a resource. As far as the supposed loss of game balance from ships not being able to bombard units without spotting them first, I have never noticed these bombardments to have much of an effect. If you were counting on that to save you, you're doomed anyway.

Since this hasn't even started working yet, lets see how it goes. Maybe once a hex is bombarded by one unit, any units in it could be revealed. This would allow a ship to illuminate one hex per turn, not an entire coastline. Maybe that would work.

Let's try to find a way to make it work instead of returning to micro-landing hell. That is NOT the answer.




1) I agree on spotting in cities then amphibing to the vacant city.

2) How do you get Italy to surrender in the first few turns?

3) Subs/surface ships doing recon certainly isn't realistic. Neither is the Germans executing Sealion 4 weeks after France's fall by blocking the channel with subs. Especially being the fact that the Brits historically had a much stronger Navy, strong airforce, radar and the Germans had very slow moving barges as amphibious carriers. Even the most optimistic on Sealion agree that the Germans would have had to eliminate the Royal Airforce. Sealions there for the game, and thats ok.

As it stands right now the only way in "the game" to figure out if your opponent is going to attempt an unrealistically easy Sealion is with unrealistic subs/ships doing recon. It ain't right but its so.

I don't care if the game changes the spotting ability of ships but accommodations need to be made for Sealion and Egypt or the game isn't balanced.





(in reply to Markiss)
Post #: 34
RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/15/2020 3:39:16 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 3254
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: online
I am also seeing my opponent doing this in my WAW MP game. Has this not been changed for WAW yet?

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Post #: 35
RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/15/2020 12:57:45 PM   
Markiss


Posts: 264
Joined: 8/29/2018
From: US Midwest
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin


1) I agree on spotting in cities then amphibing to the vacant city.

2) How do you get Italy to surrender in the first few turns?

3) Subs/surface ships doing recon certainly isn't realistic. Neither is the Germans executing Sealion 4 weeks after France's fall by blocking the channel with subs. Especially being the fact that the Brits historically had a much stronger Navy, strong airforce, radar and the Germans had very slow moving barges as amphibious carriers. Even the most optimistic on Sealion agree that the Germans would have had to eliminate the Royal Airforce. Sealions there for the game, and thats ok.

As it stands right now the only way in "the game" to figure out if your opponent is going to attempt an unrealistically easy Sealion is with unrealistic subs/ships doing recon. It ain't right but its so.

I don't care if the game changes the spotting ability of ships but accommodations need to be made for Sealion and Egypt or the game isn't balanced.







1. Yay!

2. Without giving away the specifics of certain people's strategy, Italy is invaded from all points of the compass on the turn it enters the game(I will let you figure out how). It does not have enough units to cover all of it's coastal cities without abandoning North Africa to the British, and any empty cities are easily identified using ships. It also, before the last patch, took huge national morale penalties for any landing on its territory, far higher than any other country. These facts, in addition to the loss of most of its navy on the first turn as well, drives its national morale down to dangerous levels on the first turn it enters the game. With its national morale shot, the combat effectiveness of its troops(already minimal) goes to zero. The rest of the country can now be taken easily. The only thing that the Axis player can do is flood Italy with German troops for the rest of the game trying to prevent any further morale loss. The loss of these troops permanently and so early in the game means an Allied victory. If the Germans don't move the troops in, Italy surrenders and the Allies win again. Now THAT is game unbalancing.

3. As far as Sealion goes, I always used aircraft to scout the French ports, not ships. But I believe that under the new rules if there is an amphibious assault ship in a port, a ship will see it if it gets adjacent to the port, I do not think that ability is impaired. So I am not sure what the problem is. You seem to want to be able to see them on land, in the cities before they even embark, which just isn't realistic with a ship. Or necessary. Use an aircraft, that is how these reconnaissance missions were accomplished during the war, not with ships. Unless you have already flown them all to Egypt, which is your choice, but you have to live with the consequences of it. Sealion is a little too easy, but in a turn based game, the invasion cannot be intercepted between France and Dover. Getting on Britain is fairly easy, taking all of Britain is very hard and time-consuming, I guess that is the deterrent in this game.

I'm not sure how Egypt is effected. You have aircraft there too, if you feel that you just have to know what is in a certain hex. What do you think the issue is there? Maybe we could find a way to mitigate it...


_____________________________

Lock up your wife and children now,
it's time to wield the blade...

(in reply to PvtBenjamin)
Post #: 36
RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/15/2020 1:29:18 PM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 3649
Joined: 7/22/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nnason

Hello Hubert,
Well, the mystery gets thicker.
I reinstalled the hot patch and then rebooted. I get two different results.






When did you start this game?

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Post #: 37
RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/15/2020 2:01:52 PM   
El_Condoro

 

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Joined: 8/3/2019
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With ships spotting adjacent land hexes, didn't a lot of larger ships carry scout planes that spotted and guided the ship's fire? Their presence in at least some cases should account for this ability.

(in reply to BillRunacre)
Post #: 38
RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/15/2020 2:38:17 PM   
nnason


Posts: 469
Joined: 3/4/2016
From: Washington DC Metro Area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre


quote:

ORIGINAL: nnason

Hello Hubert,
Well, the mystery gets thicker.
I reinstalled the hot patch and then rebooted. I get two different results.






When did you start this game?


Bill,
See my reply to Hubert above. I can't be certain but I think I started game after 1.17.01 was out.



_____________________________

Live Long and Prosper,
Noah Nason
LTC Field Artillery
US Army Retired

(in reply to BillRunacre)
Post #: 39
RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/15/2020 2:42:05 PM   
Markiss


Posts: 264
Joined: 8/29/2018
From: US Midwest
Status: offline
IN response to El_Condoro,

Not really. The gunnery-spotting aircraft carried by battleships and cruisers are built, and their crews trained, to spot ships on the open ocean. Ships are easy to spot on the open ocean, you just need a pair of binoculars and a fairly attentive crew.

Land reconnaissance is a different matter. Troops and equipment are hidden by vegetation, buildings, fortifications, and purposely camouflaged. To bring back useful information on these troops requires sophisticated photography equipment, and an army of analysts to pour over the photos to determine exactly what they show. The naval units mentioned do not have these capabilities. A carrier might, maybe, but not these other ship types. Certainly not Submarines and Destroyers, which are the main units used for this activity in this game.

Here's an idea. Maybe a country could focus it's spying on one particular area and have a chance to see what is there. A player could pick a hex at the start of their turn, pay say 10 mmp's to account for intense spying efforts, and have a 50% chance of seeing what is there. That works much better then a submarine removing fog of war from 20 coastal hexes in a single turn, like it has been.




< Message edited by Markiss -- 4/15/2020 2:43:14 PM >


_____________________________

Lock up your wife and children now,
it's time to wield the blade...

(in reply to El_Condoro)
Post #: 40
RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/15/2020 2:57:41 PM   
nnason


Posts: 469
Joined: 3/4/2016
From: Washington DC Metro Area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Markiss


quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin


1) I agree on spotting in cities then amphibing to the vacant city.

2) How do you get Italy to surrender in the first few turns?

3) Subs/surface ships doing recon certainly isn't realistic. Neither is the Germans executing Sealion 4 weeks after France's fall by blocking the channel with subs. Especially being the fact that the Brits historically had a much stronger Navy, strong airforce, radar and the Germans had very slow moving barges as amphibious carriers. Even the most optimistic on Sealion agree that the Germans would have had to eliminate the Royal Airforce. Sealions there for the game, and thats ok.

As it stands right now the only way in "the game" to figure out if your opponent is going to attempt an unrealistically easy Sealion is with unrealistic subs/ships doing recon. It ain't right but its so.

I don't care if the game changes the spotting ability of ships but accommodations need to be made for Sealion and Egypt or the game isn't balanced.







1. Yay!

2. Without giving away the specifics of certain people's strategy, Italy is invaded from all points of the compass on the turn it enters the game(I will let you figure out how). It does not have enough units to cover all of it's coastal cities without abandoning North Africa to the British, and any empty cities are easily identified using ships. It also, before the last patch, took huge national morale penalties for any landing on its territory, far higher than any other country. These facts, in addition to the loss of most of its navy on the first turn as well, drives its national morale down to dangerous levels on the first turn it enters the game. With its national morale shot, the combat effectiveness of its troops(already minimal) goes to zero. The rest of the country can now be taken easily. The only thing that the Axis player can do is flood Italy with German troops for the rest of the game trying to prevent any further morale loss. The loss of these troops permanently and so early in the game means an Allied victory. If the Germans don't move the troops in, Italy surrenders and the Allies win again. Now THAT is game unbalancing.

3. As far as Sealion goes, I always used aircraft to scout the French ports, not ships. But I believe that under the new rules if there is an amphibious assault ship in a port, a ship will see it if it gets adjacent to the port, I do not think that ability is impaired. So I am not sure what the problem is. You seem to want to be able to see them on land, in the cities before they even embark, which just isn't realistic with a ship. Or necessary. Use an aircraft, that is how these reconnaissance missions were accomplished during the war, not with ships. Unless you have already flown them all to Egypt, which is your choice, but you have to live with the consequences of it. Sealion is a little too easy, but in a turn based game, the invasion cannot be intercepted between France and Dover. Getting on Britain is fairly easy, taking all of Britain is very hard and time-consuming, I guess that is the deterrent in this game.

I'm not sure how Egypt is effected. You have aircraft there too, if you feel that you just have to know what is in a certain hex. What do you think the issue is there? Maybe we could find a way to mitigate it...



All,
Regarding naval spotting.
1. Cruisers and BBs did have spotting planes. These amphibious planes, even the best ones, were slower than pretty much any modern 1940s monoplane fighter. SC3 units are for masses of fighters. The coasts of all the belligerents were covered by search planes and small groups of anti-ship/sub planes. A single CA/BB or even several would have, in most cases, be spotted and shot down. If I was to write a rule for this I would say CVs spot per their current rules, amphib units can spot once per turn. CAs and BBs can spot each turn but 25% success 75% no success and 50% loss one point. DDS and Sub no spotting.

2. Certainly prior to 1942 any Allied amphib operation outside of the north sea is very gamey. The Allies and Axis simply didn't have the amphibious ships to support. Now both sides can invest and if get lucky can do some serious attacks in late 1940. I had this happen to me, I wasn't ready, and it worked. The rule I would make is to increase the cost to do it by both sides by 50% until June 1942 or until getting to Anphib level 2.


_____________________________

Live Long and Prosper,
Noah Nason
LTC Field Artillery
US Army Retired

(in reply to Markiss)
Post #: 41
RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/15/2020 3:41:34 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 927
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline
Didn't know that. ty nnason

I do know if the Germans had an enormous armada of ships & barges that a sub would be able to see it and report the pending invasion. I disagree on air power for GB doing recon for Sealion Markiss, its just to costly. Executing Sealion does enormous damage to GB fighting ability, just losing London is a big deal. This change makes it easier which it shouldn't.

I think the issue with Italy is more of an issue of Long Range Anphib capability. IMO LRAT shouldn't be available to anyone (regardless of research) until 1942. Its just to easy to put down 2 chits and have a long range amphib capability.

GB starts with 2 LRAT, France 1 & Canada 1. I'm guessing someone is taking advantage of this to invade Italy. Should't be possible.






(in reply to nnason)
Post #: 42
RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Instal... - 4/27/2020 7:58:07 PM   
Markiss


Posts: 264
Joined: 8/29/2018
From: US Midwest
Status: offline
Alright, I am finally trying to download this thing and everything seems to work great until right after step 4, and I get a "Destination Folder Access Denied" error.

Now What?

Update, I have found a way to get around this, thanks anyway.

< Message edited by Markiss -- 4/27/2020 9:21:32 PM >


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Lock up your wife and children now,
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Post #: 43
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