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Play test Scenarios Ver 4.0 (4/15): Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021

 
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Play test Scenarios Ver 4.0 (4/15): Greek-Turkish EEZ C... - 3/30/2020 7:44:13 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline 		EDITED: Play test version 4.0 posted below in Post #25...

After trying to do this in one scenario with the A/I playable from both sides I decided I really needed to separate it into two human player variants. So there is one for Greece and one for Turkey. It's pretty bloody and I do allow a six hour "Pre-war" stage where the players can set up their air unit load outs and missions (both sides). You can always start the war early but with less air support. Also IF you go into the scenario editor to set up load outs and missions, fine but make sure you go into the opposing side and activate all of their strike missions.

I did set up naval missions as the island really made it difficult for the A/I and I had to break up into small AORs. There are a few early ASW and AAW missions to keep things honest, but feel free to change whatever you want WRT missions and initial positions of the TGs.

This Youtube Video is a good backgrounder, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9Ix9J7ASMo

So with everyone under foot from COVID-19 I really haven't personally play tested it as much as I like before putting it out there, so your help and advice will be appreciated. It might be a bit messy at first.

Stay healthy everyone!!!!



< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/16/2020 12:52:42 AM >

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!
Post #: 1
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 3/31/2020 1:25:24 PM   
goldfinger35


Posts: 93
Joined: 1/1/2009
Status: offline 		Excellent. I was looking for good Greece vs Turkey scenario.

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 2
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 3/31/2020 7:56:24 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

I was looking for good Greece vs Turkey scenario.


Good could be debatable! A good scenario is very much in the eye of the beholder. That said, I play tested the A/I missions and what I had last night and wasn't happy. I tried to create a single scenario with both sides playable and frankly I don't think players will enjoy that tack at all (I didn't and I created it!) So going to set it us as two individual scenarios one with Turkish A/I-Greek human and the second with Greek A/I-Turkish human. I think that will give the human player a much, much better experience.

Am going to set up naval missions and a few AAW Missions to keep the early portions honest and let the players load out their aircraft munitions and missions. Then from there experienced players can go into the scenario editor and adjust the missions as they see fit and the newbies have a starting point

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/5/2020 12:00:44 AM >

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 3
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/3/2020 11:09:01 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Download is in the first post. I did split into two human player scenarios.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 4
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/4/2020 11:53:32 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Found an issue, all of the land based air/surface/SAM search radars, on both sides and in both scenarios were turned off. Have fixed them for the next version.

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/5/2020 12:01:19 AM >

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 5
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/5/2020 3:22:49 AM   
magi

 

Posts: 1517
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline 		great video.. ill check this out.....

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 6
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/5/2020 10:19:54 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Edit: Version 3.0 below...

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/7/2020 9:18:17 PM >

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 7
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/6/2020 11:04:05 PM   
magi

 

Posts: 1517
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline 		I AM PLAYING THE VERSION I DOWNLOADED 4/4.... i will go in and turn the Turk ground based radar on... dont want to start over.. if its not important...

the only little thing i have found so far is that .... TG Odysseus ASW Patrol.. prosecution rp's weren't designated relative...


(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 8
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/7/2020 6:50:51 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Fixed. found a mistake in the Turkish Scenario description but trying to edit the document locks up the program.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 9
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/7/2020 9:20:43 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Version 3.0. Very minor edits. Corrected a few errors I found in aircraft (units in a "maintenance" status), Turkish Scenario Briefing and the Issue Magi indicated above with the Prosecution Zone.


Edit: version 4.0 is in post #25 below...

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/16/2020 12:53:39 AM >

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 10
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/8/2020 12:24:22 AM   
magi

 

Posts: 1517
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline 		i am playing Greek...
i pretty much uped all the missions and ready times by 3 hrs... i can tell it is going to be intense over the Aegean....

one thing i dont think is not working out so good... is with all the missions in the Aegean... both sides are closing in on each other to point blank rang... when the first shot is fired there will be a totally chaotic melee engagement.... i unassigned many of the surface and sub surface groups so that i might manage them a little.....

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 11
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/8/2020 10:35:34 AM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

i pretty much uped all the missions and ready times by 3 hrs...


So I get it nobody wants to wait to start shooting , but by doing this you've shifted the balance to the Greeks. All the Turkish ready times and missions are set to a six (6) hour Greek ready time. The converse is true when playing the as the Turks. This is a scenario designers dilemma in this game!

1. If I pick the load outs then someone isn't happy,, because I didn't pick their favorite load out of the dozens of munitions available for each aircraft. Or I didn't assign the aircraft to the mission they wanted it to fly. I got butchered on that with Med Tsunami!!!!!
2. OK so then I let the players pick the load outs. "Now I have to wait, 3, 6 or 20 hours to start shooting!"
3. Set something based on a certain time, and experienced players go into the Editor and change it to their liking, throwing off the balance and timing of the entire scenario.

I've tried everything I can here, I don't know what to do!!!!!!! Not criticizing your choice but it is frustrating as a designer! Command is the hardest game to design for, for these reasons and I have been designing scenarios since SSI's "Tanks!" You might want to go into the editor and adjust the Turks times as well to get the feel of a full Aegean melee!

quote:

i can tell it is going to be intense over the Aegean....


Real world yes it would be. I'd expect dozens of downed aircraft and many sunk vessels in the first day of a Greek-Turkish conflict. Consider the Cold War and the Soviet/WP "Tattle-Tails."

quote:

one thing i dont think is not working out so good... is with all the missions in the Aegean... both sides are closing in on each other to point blank rang... when the first shot is fired there will be a totally chaotic melee engagement.... i unassigned many of the surface and sub surface groups so that i might manage them a little.....


Agreed. The missions were originally set up from the one scenario playable from both sides aspect. I did think about deleting the TG/SSK missions for the human player, but figured they would themselves if experienced and for the newbies, they are set up to try to avoid the A/I from hanging up on the islands. That is why I kept them, so far.

I did go in and change the mission Doctrine to maintain course in attack mode and gave the TGs/SSKs a course that will keep them going for six hours so they don't sail around in big circles, but welcome to the littoral . Both sides will be jockeying for position. One thing CMO A/I can't do well is use the islands for cover as a real TG commander would be doing in this situation (An issue with the Hormuz scenario I just did as well).

Thanks for the help, but please do consider adjusting the Turkish timing to get the full Turk A/I reaction to your initial attacks.

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/8/2020 6:05:09 PM >

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 12
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/8/2020 12:28:26 PM   
goldfinger35


Posts: 93
Joined: 1/1/2009
Status: offline 		I didn't yet have time to test this scenario so I will give feedback when I play it (as Greece) but letting the player pick the load outs seems like a good decision. I really appreciate all of your hard work and effort because I know how time consuming it is. Keep up the good work!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 13
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/9/2020 3:17:44 PM   
magi

 

Posts: 1517
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

quote:

i pretty much uped all the missions and ready times by 3 hrs...


So I get it nobody wants to wait to start shooting , but by doing this you've shifted the balance to the Greeks. All the Turkish ready times and missions are set to a six (6) hour Greek ready time. The converse is true when playing the as the Turks. This is a scenario designers dilemma in this game!

1. If I pick the load outs then someone isn't happy,, because I didn't pick their favorite load out of the dozens of munitions available for each aircraft. Or I didn't assign the aircraft to the mission they wanted it to fly. I got butchered on that with Med Tsunami!!!!!
2. OK so then I let the players pick the load outs. "Now I have to wait, 3, 6 or 20 hours to start shooting!"
3. Set something based on a certain time, and experienced players go into the Editor and change it to their liking, throwing off the balance and timing of the entire scenario.

I've tried everything I can here, I don't know what to do!!!!!!! Not criticizing your choice but it is frustrating as a designer! Command is the hardest game to design for, for these reasons and I have been designing scenarios since SSI's "Tanks!" You might want to go into the editor and adjust the Turks times as well to get the feel of a full Aegean melee!

about loadouts.... if people would play in editor mode its a non issue....
i did adjust the Turk ready times and missions as well....
i do have a question about mission times... are they set for zulu or local time..?

< Message edited by magi -- 4/9/2020 3:19:42 PM >

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 14
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/9/2020 4:25:09 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

i did adjust the Turk ready times and missions as well....
i do have a question about mission times... are they set for zulu or local time..?


Zulu, I think mission times are always in Zulu. Am I wrong about that?

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 15
RE: Greek-Turkish EEZ Conflict, 2021 - 4/9/2020 4:26:47 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

about loadouts.... if people would play in editor mode its a non issue....


If only Nagumo had the opportunity to play in the Scenario Editor!

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 16
RE: Play test Scenarios Version 3, 4/5 - Greek-Turkish ... - 4/11/2020 12:58:00 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline 		If anyone is still playing this scenario, Magi, I hope I didn't insult you! Not my intention!!!! You may have noticed the Scoring wasn't set. I didn't want to do that until I had a better idea what looked like good numbers to use. So for both sides going to make Disaster "0" and Triumph "6,000"

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 17
RE: Play test Scenarios Version 3, 4/5 - Greek-Turkish ... - 4/12/2020 6:50:40 AM   
magi

 

Posts: 1517
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

If anyone is still playing this scenario, Magi, I hope I didn't insult you! Not my intention!!!! You may have noticed the Scoring wasn't set. I didn't want to do that until I had a better idea what looked like good numbers to use. So for both sides going to make Disaster "0" and Triumph "6,000"


oh no.... not at all.... im not that sensitive.... and i am respectful of your efforts...
ive learned mission times are zulu... which is most sensible....
i havent played for a couple of days.....


< Message edited by magi -- 4/12/2020 6:51:10 AM >

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 18
RE: Play test Scenarios Version 3, 4/5 - Greek-Turkish ... - 4/13/2020 4:07:50 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3094
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline 		Weird thing. When I play this scenario I don't get Creep & Cruise throttle settings, though I can still set speeds manually.

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 19
RE: Play test Scenarios Version 3, 4/5 - Greek-Turkish ... - 4/13/2020 5:19:44 PM   
goldfinger35


Posts: 93
Joined: 1/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

Weird thing. When I play this scenario I don't get Creep & Cruise throttle settings, though I can still set speeds manually.


Interesting. I didn't yet start this scenario, but I randomly got the same problem with 1141.2 with scenario Spratly Spat

(in reply to Primarchx)
Post #: 20
RE: Play test Scenarios Version 3, 4/5 - Greek-Turkish ... - 4/13/2020 10:21:15 PM   
magi

 

Posts: 1517
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline 		well here we go...
managing my forces was essentially fruitless... so confusing with the active missions... red and blue were co-mingled... i attempted separating from hostiles groups... but the whole agean was one big "zuppe di pesce"...
sooooo.... at around 02:12 zulu i went weapons free and fired a shot.... total hell broke loose throught the agean to the island chian in the south... there was so much going on i couldnt keep up with it.... i was pretty much just a spectator with no popcorn....

at zulu 02:19... the frantic tempo of the opening battle has moderated considerably... the carnage of seven minutes of modern war is remarkable...

SIDE: Greece
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
4x F-16DJ Blk 52+ Falcon [Peace Xenia III]
1x Pegasus II UAV
5x F-16DJ Blk 50 Falcon [Peace Xenia II]
2x P 20 Laskos [La Combattante III]
1x P 267 Nikiphoros [Improved Pyrpolitis, HSY-56A]
1x P 24 Kavaloudis [La Combattante IIIb]

SIDE: Turkey
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
4x F-16CG Blk 40 Falcon [Peace Onyx I]
4x F-16CJ Blk 50 Falcon [Peace Onyx IV]
2x AB.212 ASW
1x F 240 Yavuz [Meko 200TN Track I]
3x P 330 Kilic [FPB-57 Mod]
1x S-70B-28 Seahawk
1x P 340 Dogan [FPB-57]
1x P 333 Tufan [FPB-57 Mod, Kilic II]
1x S 353 Preveze [Type 209-1400, Preveze/Gür Class]
1x P 348 Yildiz [FPB-57 Mod]
1x F 246 Salihreis [Meko 200TN Track IIB]

currently i dominate the central agean to the to the Mediterranean..
the turks are strong in the northeast agean and have blocking naval forces in the med west of cypress....

for now i will be holding and there will be skirmishes.... however in forty minutes all the strikers will be ready to go and it will probably get pretty wild... i can not anticipate the out come at this time...

the next time i play this i will delete all the blue missions and manage my assets until hostilities commence... i am certain it will have a more positive outcome for blue side....

but i will admit this is pretty fun... kind of like playing on meth....


< Message edited by magi -- 4/14/2020 6:08:17 AM >

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 21
RE: Play test Scenarios Version 3, 4/5 - Greek-Turkish ... - 4/14/2020 11:51:45 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

i will admit this is pretty fun... kind of like playing on meth....


I laughed so hard I spit out my beer!

quote:

so confusing with the active missions... red and blue were co-mingled... i attempted separating from hostiles groups... but the whole agean was one big "zuppe di pesce"...
sooooo.... at around 02:12 zulu i went weapons free and fired a shot.... total hell broke loose throught the agean to the island chian in the south... there was so much going on i couldnt keep up with it.... i was pretty much just a spectator with no popcorn....


Modern war in the littoral! I imagine an Aegean war with both sides having the time to bring most forces to bear and with a deadline time set like this...

Oy Vey!!!!!!!!

quote:

the next time i play this i will delete all the blue missions and manage my assets until hostilities commence... i am certain it will have a more positive outcome for blue side....


I did originally try to set up the A/I for both sides, but am going to delete all the vessel and aircraft missions sans ASW for the human prior to releasing. Players will have more fun doing it themselves. BUT it is still going to be a bloody mess, but think the real thing would be as well

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/14/2020 11:55:03 PM >

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 22
RE: Play test Scenarios Version 3, 4/5 - Greek-Turkish ... - 4/16/2020 12:35:35 AM   
magi

 

Posts: 1517
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline 		"I did originally try to set up the A/I for both sides, but am going to delete all the vessel and aircraft missions sans ASW for the human prior to releasing. Players will have more fun doing it themselves. BUT it is still going to be a bloody mess, but think the real thing would be as well"

i agree.. the geography is so compressed for modern battle... it would be a wild ride indeed.....
i believe your notions on blue missions for the release version is correct thing to do... the player will be able to plan and manage his assets more cogently...
i believe this is going to be a good scenario and people are going to like it....


< Message edited by magi -- 4/16/2020 12:40:43 AM >

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 23
RE: Play test Scenarios Version 3, 4/5 - Greek-Turkish ... - 4/16/2020 12:41:44 AM   
magi

 

Posts: 1517
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: magi

"I did originally try to set up the A/I for both sides, but am going to delete all the vessel and aircraft missions sans ASW for the human prior to releasing. Players will have more fun doing it themselves. BUT it is still going to be a bloody mess, but think the real thing would be as well"

i agree.. the geography is so compressed for modern battle... it would be a wild ride indeed.....
i believe your notions on blue missions for the release version is correct thing to do... the player will be able to plan and manage his assets more cogently...
i think this is going to be a good scenario and people are going to like it....



(in reply to magi)
Post #: 24
RE: Play test Scenarios Version 3, 4/5 - Greek-Turkish ... - 4/16/2020 12:50:22 AM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

i agree.. the geography is so compressed for modern battle... it would be a wild ride indeed.....
i believe your notions on blue missions for the release version is correct thing to do... the player will be able to plan and manage his assets more cogently...
i think this is going to be a good scenario and people are going to like it....


The situation/scenario certainly would be a hairy fur ball if it ever really occurred.

So here it is with the missions scrubbed. What I did was left the Reference Points in case someone wants to go into the Scenario Editor and activate some of them, like the ASW missions.

Thanks for your help and kind comments on the scenario!

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 25
RE: Play test Scenarios Version 3, 4/5 - Greek-Turkish ... - 4/18/2020 1:07:44 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Added to released scenarios.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 26
RE: Play test Scenarios Version 3, 4/5 - Greek-Turkish ... - 5/18/2020 3:39:57 PM   
goldfinger35


Posts: 93
Joined: 1/1/2009
Status: offline 		I have finally managed to find time to finish this scenario and it is a very good and intensive one. My final score is 14.925 and I lost 62 planes (most on ground) and two gunboats while I destroyed 162 Turkish planes, 26 helos, 9 subs, 36 ships, 12 radars etc.

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 27
RE: Play test Scenarios Version 3, 4/5 - Greek-Turkish ... - 5/19/2020 12:47:05 AM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1976
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks! Yeah, if this one ever really happened what a blood bath! Too constricted of an engagement area!

Looking forward to the Live Version that Defense Greece is working on!

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 28
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