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Ranged Fire - 3/29/2020 10:42:14 PM   
William the Silent

 

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I'm new at TOAW IV and I'm working on my first scenario: 0.25km/hex.
Finding out how everything works.
I noticed that infantry units cannot have ranged fire (I tried).

With this new hex scale should ranged fire for infantry not be introduced? I mean, nowadays with the new rifles, you can hit somebody from 500m quite easy. And infantry heavy weapons for sure can.
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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/29/2020 11:29:16 PM   
Lobster


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No way will it work unless the weapons have very short effective ranges. Even worse there is no LOS in TOAW because it was always supposed to be Operational vs Tactical. Even if you threw in house rules to cover LOS there would be so many ambiguous events that people would be arguing forever whether or not LOS was blocked. Ever play a miniatures game? Lots of 'discussion'.

Maybe pre black powder.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 3/29/2020 11:30:05 PM >


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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/30/2020 1:05:29 AM   
William the Silent

 

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With the introduction of 0.25km/hex and 1 hour turns you could create an immense operational/tactical game on a map of (700 x 0.25) = 175km x 175km. That's WW2 on squad level

You could use/see attack on "minimal losses" as a fire skirmish.

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/30/2020 3:34:35 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: William the Silent

With the introduction of 0.25km/hex and 1 hour turns you could create an immense operational/tactical game on a map of (700 x 0.25) = 175km x 175km. That's WW2 on squad level

You could use/see attack on "minimal losses" as a fire skirmish.


You could do that. Use the light escarpments as elevation markers and put occasional elevations via text every now and then. It would take a bunch of written rules for determining LOS but it would be doable. Not sure how you would do long range direct fire since the game would see it as indirect fire/bombardment.

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/30/2020 3:05:14 PM   
William the Silent

 

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I'm not planning on a mega game on that scale. I'm still learning the game. That will take a while with all the rules etc.
I'm working on a Napoleonic game. I transferred Kevin Zucker's "Napoleon's Last Gamble" map with ADC-II into a 215m/hex map.
I'm halfway done with it. I translated the escarpments into the TOAW map.
I played with unit models and planning on battalion level in Divisions.

Just try things out and adjust until I get a close to realistic result. In the mean time I learn the game .
Supply is tough .
I can cut the map up to create single battles (Waterloo, Wavre, Quatre-Bras, Ligny).
See where it goes.

The map

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< Message edited by William the Silent -- 3/30/2020 3:21:07 PM >

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/30/2020 5:24:55 PM   
Lobster


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I'd like to see someone try Borodino. One of my favorites. I still have the GDW version made back in the Stone Age.

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/30/2020 6:41:45 PM   
William the Silent

 

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I can give you a 200m/hex map + OOB

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/30/2020 6:59:53 PM   
rhinobones

 

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Just so happens that I have also been tinkering with a scenario just about the same time frame and subject as yours. For me the boardgame graphics mod seems to go better with the scale rather than the standard TOAW graphics. You might want to give it a try and see if you like it.

This particular scenario isn’t designed to have an abundance of artillery, so LOS does not become a showstopper. Still in the early stages of design with artillery set to 3 and 5 hexes.

For giving units ranges they do not normally have, I have played around with using icons with range capability and editing them into ranged units. As an example, re-paint the existing mortar icon as an anti-tank icon, fill it with AT guns, edit the AT gun attributes for extended range and change the icon silhouette. Needs a lot of testing to make sure the game engine produces the desired results.

Regards





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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/30/2020 7:35:16 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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The issue is more than just LOS impact on combat. There is also its impact on spotting.

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/30/2020 9:59:57 PM   
William the Silent

 

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quote:

For giving units ranges they do not normally have, I have played around with using icons with range capability and editing them into ranged units. As an example, re-paint the existing mortar icon as an anti-tank icon, fill it with AT guns, edit the AT gun attributes for extended range and change the icon silhouette. Needs a lot of testing to make sure the game engine produces the desired results.

I'm still in the early stages of exploring the possibilities of TOAW. I'm not gonna go into that yet. But that's a good idea. I noticed HQ also has range fire. And since there are 3 HQ NATO counter you could change one into infantry or whatever you want. Might cause some other issues.

Maybe TOAW should open up some more possibilities in the NATO counter abilities (wink), so we, game designers, do not have to abuse the TOAW system to get what we want. Purists wont like it maybe.

I actually didn't go into the LOS issue yet. Does escarpment/trees block it?

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/30/2020 10:04:39 PM   
Lobster


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There is no line of sight in TOAW because it was never going to use it.

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/30/2020 11:19:58 PM   
William the Silent

 

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You have to find the enemy with recon units. That's realistic. Especially interesting before air warfare.

Battlefields disappeared in the smoke for a big part in the musket era. So not much LOS there.
Blasting away right in front of you.

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/31/2020 1:31:52 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: William the Silent

You have to find the enemy with recon units. That's realistic. Especially interesting before air warfare.

Battlefields disappeared in the smoke for a big part in the musket era. So not much LOS there.
Blasting away right in front of you.

Then why do you need ranged fire?

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/31/2020 1:50:50 AM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Then why do you need ranged fire?


When the weapon is sighted on a distant target.

_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/31/2020 2:55:00 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Then why do you need ranged fire?


When the weapon is sighted on a distant target.

He's saying you can't sight by distance due to the smoke.

_____________________________

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Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/31/2020 3:24:57 AM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
He's saying you can't sight by distance due to the smoke.


And Norm said, “Before there was smoke there was sighting”. Read the whole post. The enemy was sighted, they fired and then there was smoke. Don’t try to nick pick.

Regards


_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 16
RE: Ranged Fire - 3/31/2020 2:18:49 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
He's saying you can't sight by distance due to the smoke.


And Norm said, “Before there was smoke there was sighting”. Read the whole post. The enemy was sighted, they fired and then there was smoke. Don’t try to nick pick.

Regards


I suggest you read it again. He said you have to recon the area with recon units. Nothing about sighting by distance.

Regardless, let's be clear: If there is a need for LOS ranged fire, there is also a need for LOS spotting.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 3/31/2020 2:20:58 PM >


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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/31/2020 2:40:49 PM   
Lobster


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Since there will never be LOS in TOAW in it's present form I don't see what the issue is about something that will never happen. It would take an entire new game to get to the tactical level. Then you would have to drop the 'Operational' part of the title.

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/31/2020 5:52:32 PM   
William the Silent

 

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Is there a spotting range for land units. I cannot find that in the manual. Only naval spotting.

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/31/2020 8:28:02 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: William the Silent

Is there a spotting range for land units. I cannot find that in the manual. Only naval spotting.

Adjacent only. That is in addition to Theater Recon level.

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Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/31/2020 10:02:20 PM   
William the Silent

 

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quote:

Adjacent only. That is in addition to Theater Recon level.


In your AAR from Leipzig 1813 Post #4 you write:
"This shot shows how French forces are being concentrated to the south. Napoleon occupies a peak hex, for future visibility".

What's the purpose of the peaks in the scenario?

< Message edited by William the Silent -- 3/31/2020 10:03:04 PM >

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RE: Ranged Fire - 3/31/2020 10:24:06 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: William the Silent

quote:

Adjacent only. That is in addition to Theater Recon level.


In your AAR from Leipzig 1813 Post #4 you write:
"This shot shows how French forces are being concentrated to the south. Napoleon occupies a peak hex, for future visibility".

What's the purpose of the peaks in the scenario?

Yes, you also spot from friendly occuppied peak hexes. But that range is fixed at 30km (I think).

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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RE: Ranged Fire - 4/1/2020 9:35:56 PM   
carll11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

I'd like to see someone try Borodino. One of my favorites. I still have the GDW version made back in the Stone Age.



When FOGII perfects Napoleonic play, you'll get your wish;)

The Tiller Borodino is pretty good, but has to be pbem, Tillers AI is to be kind,simplistic to the max.

< Message edited by carll11 -- 4/1/2020 9:36:19 PM >

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RE: Ranged Fire - 4/2/2020 1:09:12 AM   
William the Silent

 

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I think he's talking about a WW2 game "Borodino"
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GDW-Games-Stand-Die-The-Battle-of-Borodino-1941-Frank-Chadwick-UNP/303123177736

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RE: Ranged Fire - 4/2/2020 2:13:46 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: William the Silent

I think he's talking about a WW2 game "Borodino"
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GDW-Games-Stand-Die-The-Battle-of-Borodino-1941-Frank-Chadwick-UNP/303123177736


Omg no even close.






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_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to William the Silent)
Post #: 25
RE: Ranged Fire - 4/2/2020 2:42:24 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: William the Silent

I think he's talking about a WW2 game "Borodino"
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GDW-Games-Stand-Die-The-Battle-of-Borodino-1941-Frank-Chadwick-UNP/303123177736


Omg no even close.






I have the original - dated 1975. I believe this was the grand-daddy of all 19th century tactical battle games.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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RE: Ranged Fire - 4/2/2020 2:10:43 PM   
William the Silent

 

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Curtis you're a lucky guy. Owning that game. That must be small scale tactical.

In 1975 I was still painting Airfix Waterloo soldiers (after school). But my ceiling was filled with WW2 Aircraft. I built La Haye Sainte farm from cardboard at 1/72. Painted with water paint. The good old times.

BTW. On that picture of the Battle of Borodino: no smoke.

All these units.

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< Message edited by William the Silent -- 4/2/2020 2:23:19 PM >

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RE: Ranged Fire - 4/2/2020 3:48:40 PM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

In 1975 I was still painting Airfix Waterloo soldiers


I liked their WW2 soldiers. Was a bit irritated the American soldiers set had the troops firing an M1919A6 (Browning on a bipod) ... and not a guy with a BAR or proper medium machine gun team with the .30 on a tripod.

One neat use for sites like Airfix and other modeling firms is to check out their information on uniforms. Makes for good suggestions for very exact colors to use to color the counters in TOAW. Sort of a way of subtly weaving the fun times of those decades past with PC software.

Cheers

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RE: Ranged Fire - 4/2/2020 3:48:42 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: William the Silent

Curtis you're a lucky guy. Owning that game. That must be small scale tactical.

In 1975 I was still painting Airfix Waterloo soldiers (after school). But my ceiling was filled with WW2 Aircraft. I built La Haye Sainte farm from cardboard at 1/72. Painted with water paint. The good old times.

BTW. On that picture of the Battle of Borodino: no smoke.

All these units.


Lots of smoke. Looking at the box now and smoke is wherever there are weapons being fired. At the same time artists did their best to reduce the amount of smoke in their paintings. Otherwise it wouldn't be much of a painting if all you saw was smoke. Wind and humidity also played their parts.

This is a reenactment. Multiply the smoke by many factors:





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_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

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RE: Ranged Fire - 4/2/2020 7:20:20 PM   
carll11


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Wish I had a pic of my Korsun Pocket set up, did it in a day room in Aschaffenburg,ginormous....but heres the Moscowa they are referring too;






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< Message edited by carll11 -- 4/2/2020 7:21:10 PM >

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