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Forts - 3/14/2020 4:59:32 PM   
tyronec


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This is the section from the patch notes, am not quite understanding it:
quote:

● Max fort level:
5.10 (3.10 in swamp) if fort above 4.10, or this hex contains a fort unit and port,
○ 4.10 (3.10 in swamp) if fort above 3.10, or this hex contains a fort unit,
○ 3.10 if fort above 2.10, or this hex is city, light urban, heavy urban, or adjacent hex
contains a fort unit or enemy unit,
○ 2.10 if none of the conditions above are met.
○ Unless 4.10 or better is allowed, reduce max fort level to:
■ 2.10 if this hex is more than 25 hexes from supplied enemy combat units,
■ 1.10 if this hex is more than 50 hexes from supplied enemy combat units,
■ 0.00 if this hex is more than 75 hexes from supplied enemy combat units.


The highlighted line, I follow the second part of the sentence, you can go to 5.1 with a port and a fort unit but not sure about 'if fort above 4.1' ?
Does this mean if you start at 4.1 you can go to 5.1 but otherwise you can't get past 1.1/2.1 until the enemy gets close enough ?

Looking at the Soviet deployment for the Campaign, on the Finnish border:
Adjacent to a fort the max is 2.1, should that not be 3.1 ?
With a fort the max is 4.1 which looks right.

Looks like if you can build a line of Fort units and get them up to level 4 then they are hard to crack, any games where this has happened ?
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RE: Forts - 3/14/2020 5:03:22 PM   
morvael


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It means if you already have 4.11+ you're allowed to have fort up to 5.10, even if there is no fort unit and/or no port.

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RE: Forts - 3/14/2020 5:21:19 PM   
joelmar


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So fort zones presence now have a part to play in the level of fortifications that can be attained, which I think is a good thing.

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RE: Forts - 3/14/2020 5:28:07 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Looks like if you can build a line of Fort units and get them up to level 4 then they are hard to crack, any games where this has happened ?


I feel like this will happen and it will be game breaking in the later years. I said this to morvael already. Under the new rules, level 4 forts are very very hard to crack and it takes around 15 turns for a fort unit + ID to build fort level 4 from scratch. Considering that the Germans after 1942 have little to spend their APs on, I feel that this will lead to level 4 forts being build all along the Dnepr. At that point, the German player might as well just pull back and hold the line forever.

I hope I am wrong, but I fear that this change will have consequences in the game balance in a bad way. And I am saying this as an Axis player.



< Message edited by xhoel -- 3/14/2020 5:29:29 PM >


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RE: Forts - 3/14/2020 5:53:50 PM   
morvael


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I was never a fan of static WW1 frontlines, but that's what most of the front turned into as the Germans ran out of steam. I guess a full line of level 4 forts will have drastic supply costs, I'm not sure economy (supply production) will support that. And IMHO at good odds you'll actually remove forts quite fast. If it will all turn out as you predict, I'm willing to revisit that. In some places 1.12.00 was a return to old formulas, when I thought my changes went too far. My goal was to enable longer battles for major cities, and to make forts actually useful for a change. Would love to make static units useful as well. If this is in the game, it should actually have some purpose.

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RE: Forts - 3/14/2020 6:00:52 PM   
joelmar


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I entirely agree with the underlying idea.

But still xhoel may well have a very good point. I don't think a full line of level 4 forts could be established in practice as you say Morvael, but I think an astute German may make key areas very hard to break and buy time enough to turn a Soviet victory into a defeat without the Soviet making any mistake to warrant that turn of situation. Which could be frustrating after a long game.

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RE: Forts - 3/14/2020 6:08:26 PM   
morvael


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It costs 1767 construction points (17+50+200+1000+500) and 21150 tons of supplies (50+100+1000+10000+10000) to build 4.10 fort. And you need to build that fort unit, provide guns and men and supplies to it, which could be used elsewhere.

I can see an ID has about 40 construction points, and a fort unit around 9 (in good weather). IMHO it will take a bit longer than you said (unless extra help will kick in - engineer and construction units, city pops).

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RE: Forts - 3/14/2020 6:39:15 PM   
joelmar


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Yes, it's true it's not so easy and seen the way you present it, those numbers combined with the 25 hexes from enemy units limit for going over 2.10 makes it look almost impossible to get even only 1.

But that said, no need to get to level 5 fort with german units, just the ability to get to level 4 anywhere (11150 tons instead of 21150 and a little more than 2/3 the construction points) which didn't exist before is already something to look into for the Axis player in the later stages of the war.

The fact that no fort more than 2.1 fort levels can be constructed beyond 25 hexes is a big break though. Yes, probably very hard to achieve even one fort at level 4.1

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RE: Forts - 3/14/2020 7:25:48 PM   
xhoel


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@morvael: At good odds you still have to break your head against forts. I have already showed you cases where 1 lone fortified region is holding back 9 Infantry divisions with Arty and Pioneer support.

As long as you are willing to revisit the change in case things go south, I am good with it. It will take some time to see the effects though.

I ran tests but yes you are right, I forgot I attached 1 Construction Bn to the Fort Zone. Still considering all the time the Germans have between end 1942 and autumn 1943 I don't think it is far fetched to believe that this will happen.

@joelmar: Yes I guess that may be true, hadn't though about it so thanks for mentioning it. Will have to see how things go.

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RE: Forts - 3/14/2020 9:14:50 PM   
eskuche

 

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Can you post that image? Was it bad rolls against the special oranienbaum fort? :P

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RE: Forts - 3/14/2020 10:05:55 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

Can you post that image? Was it bad rolls against the special oranienbaum fort? :P


Don't think I have it anymore. Is somewhere in the forums when me and morvael were discussing about fort effects in 1.12.01 I think. It isn't hard to replicate it though. Just create a dummy scenario in the editor and you can see that it is still true.

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 4:54:51 AM   
petertodd

 

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I think xhoel is correct that level 4 forts can have a major impact from 1943 on if the Axis plans ahead. I've been experimenting against the AI (hard setting) and was able to build many level 4 forts by 1943, and close to 100 by mid 1944. A level 4 fort is far more valuable than a level 3 fort because it takes many turns to degrade them and you have plenty of time to reinforce. Also, the manpower cost is not permanent since once the fort reaches level 4 you can disband the fortified zone unit but the fort remains and does not degrade (unlike level 3).

I'm pretty sure the distance-from-the-enemy rule does not apply to fortified zones--I sometimes build fortified zones to contribute to garrison requirements and am seeing them reach level 4 forts way back from the front lines. It does take forever to build a level 4 fort with a lone fortified zone, but you can speed it up a lot by attaching construction SUs, or expecially by parking high construction value units on them (after the railroads are all repaired you can move construction SUs attached to FBDs to fort building). With two very-high construction value units you can convert a level 3 fort to level 4 in as little as 10 turns (and this was with fort "Fort Level" option set to 80).

One limiting factor is that the admin point cost of building fortified zones escalates dramatically at some point--I sometimes had to pay over 30 APs per fort (but the Axis has plenty of APs by then).

I don't see how the Soviets can ever get to Berlin if a competant Axis player exploits this strategy. I do, however, agree that it was too easy to take major fortified cities before this rule. The problem is that you can build such forts all over the place.

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 8:49:47 AM   
morvael


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Maybe the cost for too many fort units should increase earlier/faster.

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 10:28:05 AM   
56ajax


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or set a limit asto how many you can build per turn, or have a max limit.

Also might want to check how quickly they build as the ones next to Sevastapol seem to go to 4.1 overnight.

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 10:40:18 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

... I feel that this will lead to level 4 forts being build all along the Dnepr. At that point, the German player might as well just pull back and hold the line forever.
....




Isn't that what they thought they would do, but the Red Army spearheads bounced the river before they completed it/manned it?

You have a mission, should you choose to accept it.

The fort building rate may be less than the cleaving blow -> OMG advance rate.

Prove that hypothesis wrong.

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 12:12:01 PM   
xhoel


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@petertodd: Interesting finds. I have not tested it as extensively as you have but if what you say is true, that means game over for the Soviets.

@morvael: Or maybe just change the rule so that it reverts back to old requirements.

@56ajax: A turn limit is not optimal I think. As long as you are paying APs, you should be allowed to build. At some point, the costs increase like petertodd said so that is fine.

@Ian R: Fort level 4 is treated differently in game. The Germans did indeed intend to pull back and hold the Dnepr, however with level 4 forts across the river, the Soviets will never be able to breach them, because even if they get the needed 2:1 odds, the fort will still hold because of the new rules.

I have no idea what the other stuff you said means as it is incoherent. What hypothesis???

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 12:29:51 PM   
morvael


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What about this:
quote:

Fort at level 4 or better will not prevent defender's retreat if there will be no town, city or urban terrain in hex.

Also:
quote:

Bonus fort destruction in combat will be rounded up, so at least 0.02 of fort level will be removed at all times.


< Message edited by morvael -- 3/15/2020 12:47:40 PM >

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 12:49:20 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

What about this:

Fort at level 4 or better will not prevent defender's retreat if there will be no town, city or urban terrain in hex.

Also:

Bonus fort destruction in combat will be rounded up, so at least 0.02 of fort level will be removed at all times.



Seems like a step in the right direction :)



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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 1:08:23 PM   
morvael


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Good to hear it. I would like to see longer battles for key cities, but not a Great Wall all along the front.

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 2:17:38 PM   
BrianG

 

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oranienbaum fort

I can confirm this fort is now tough nut to crack.

now 3 and 0 in battles

just survived a 20:1 German attack, fort dropped from 4.22 to 4.12.

I now advise never disbanding it!!!

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 2:23:36 PM   
petertodd

 

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quote:

Fort at level 4 or better will not prevent defender's retreat if there will be no town, city or urban terrain in hex.

Maybe. Currently the level 4 forts have two huge advantages over level 3--no retreat, and very slow degradation. The no retreat rule is ridiculous when the fort is practically undefended and huge odds still force no retreat and little degredation. I think maybe somewhat higher odds to force retreat, depending on the terrain, and faster degredation might be a better compromise.

quote:

Bonus fort destruction in combat will be rounded up, so at least 0.02 of fort level will be removed at all times.

This seems fine to me as long as low-odds attacks don't force degradation--that would invite gamey tactics.

Something else regarding forts that might be looked at is how fast level 3 forts can sometimes degrade. I sometimes see 1:1 attacks result in compete destruction of level 3 forts (while other times the fort degrades just a little). This extreme difference between level 3 and level 4 fort degradation is a "game changer".

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 3:09:23 PM   
tyronec


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quote:

What about this:
quote:

Fort at level 4 or better will not prevent defender's retreat if there will be no town, city or urban terrain in hex.

Also:
quote:

Bonus fort destruction in combat will be rounded up, so at least 0.02 of fort level will be removed at all times.



The no retreat rule just for cities looks to be a good change.
Not sure about the change to fort reduction, doesn't seem right to get reduction for a weak failed attack but maybe .02 doesn't make much difference. If it were at 4.1 you could do 6 weak attacks and then it is vulnerable...

quote:

oranienbaum fort

I can confirm this fort is now tough nut to crack.

now 3 and 0 in battles

just survived a 20:1 German attack, fort dropped from 4.22 to 4.12.

I now advise never disbanding it!!!

Yes I tried a couple of attacks this turn just to see what would happen, clearly an ungarissoned fort unit can hold out for a long time and a weak garrison unit would be clocking up a lot of wins.

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 3:53:56 PM   
morvael


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I would be happy to use odds (and have in the past), but final random odds are not reliable, the numbers vary greatly between 1/256 and 512 of the non-random value. So they are not reliable enough to determine cut-off point for fort protection.

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 3:58:02 PM   
morvael


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In the past I have also used combat size ratios or manpower ratios to determine various combat modifiers. Perhaps these could be used here. Never wanted lone forts to keep dozens of divisions from advancing.

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 4:49:49 PM   
eskuche

 

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Isn't engineering CV multiplied by sqrt(CV ratio) currently? Would it make sense just to have it multiplied by final CV ratio period?

Edit: I think this and the hex-specific no retreat rules for high fort values should probably solve most of the problems of overpowered fort lines and overpowered undermanned single high forts.

< Message edited by eskuche -- 3/15/2020 4:51:33 PM >

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RE: Forts - 3/15/2020 5:40:10 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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quote:

Good to hear it. I would like to see longer battles for key cities, but not a Great Wall all along the front.


Two thumbs up!

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RE: Forts - 3/16/2020 4:28:18 AM   
mrhuggles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Good to hear it. I would like to see longer battles for key cities, but not a Great Wall all along the front.


+1 I think changing no-retreat to the cities and big towns change would be a great compromise.

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RE: Forts - 3/16/2020 3:02:57 PM   
Karri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

In the past I have also used combat size ratios or manpower ratios to determine various combat modifiers. Perhaps these could be used here. Never wanted lone forts to keep dozens of divisions from advancing.


Wouldn't it be easiest to add 0.01 fort degrade for every X odds above certain level. Ie. if final odds are 5 to 1, every one extra step above will degrade the fort with 0.01 points. So 20 to 1 odds would degrade 0.15 extra points. This way a single fort would be taken down quite fast, whereas a single division in the same hex would already make it impossible to get those odds.

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RE: Forts - 3/16/2020 3:10:00 PM   
eskuche

 

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I think the issue with that is that then pioneers are moot. As long as you bring enough of any type of SUs then you'd be good to go disregarding Eng/Art points.

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RE: Forts - 3/16/2020 3:49:24 PM   
joelmar


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I don't think pioneers would be moot. You would still need to bring in some pioneers to destroy completely the fort level in an acceptable time frame if the fort is well manned with divisions. Let's say there is over 100 def CV in the fort... to even get to odds over 2:1, you will need to bring in very serious firepower and work very hard to take the hex. I think by that point, the fort level 4 will already have done it's intended job.




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