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A courteous PSA to all scenario designers

 
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A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 3/7/2020 1:25:21 PM   
Eboreg

 

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I know it seems rather simple to put submarines in Sea Control Patrols but there is a bit of a trap there, especially with diesel-electric or AIP submarines. You see, Sea Control Patrols have their EMCON status set to Radar Active by default. This will make sure that whenever diesel-electric or AIP submarines surface to gain more battery power, they'll turn on their radars and shortly afterwards, eat air-dropped torpedoes or depth charges because the player will take full advantage of their indiscretions. What this means is that your submarines will not pose any sort of threat that you would like them to pose making the scenario just a bit easier than you'd like it to be. I know this may not seem like much but I've even seen the official scenario designers fall into this trap so please, check all of your scenarios, check all Sea Control Patrols that have submarines attached to them, and make sure their radars are turned off.

Thank you for your time.
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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 3/7/2020 2:08:15 PM   
Dimitris


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I applaud the kind tone. Bravo!

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 3/7/2020 2:12:36 PM   
DWReese

 

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You are correct.

We "discussed" this once before, and the recommendation that followed was that "the radars should not be activated" was agreed upon consensus as being the the default solution by the posters. Apparently, the devs either decided against it, or they haven't implemented the change as of yet.

As you said, it seems silly to be all clandestine under the sea, lurking in utter silence, with no one knowing that you are there, and then rising up to periscope depth and alerting the world that you will be right here for the next three hours or so, traveling at 2 kts.

It really needs to be changed.

Doug

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 3/7/2020 3:08:14 PM   
Eggstor

 

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You know the moment the default doctrine is changed, someone's going to scream bloody murder when their MPAs assigned to sea control missions aren't radiating.

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 3/7/2020 3:28:20 PM   
DWReese

 

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Again, you are correct. But, I do believe that subs don't travel very fast (especially electric boats), and they need to stay at that depth for hours (usually) to recharge their batteries, so it would behoove them to be as quiet as possible, for as long as possible, when in that vulnerable position.

Doug

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 3/7/2020 3:56:37 PM   
Eboreg

 

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Yeah... the reason I brought this up was because I was testing the new version of Operation Brass Drum to see how much proper strategy had changed (spoiler alert, not a lot) and found out that all of the Iranian subs have their radars set to Active. I don't have a problem with Sea Control patrols having radars active by default, it makes sense in most cases, but I feel that this is something that designers really need to watch out for when creating their scenarios. I'm also not entirely sure if I brought this up before but this problem does seem to be endemic to the Chains of War campaign.

"Blue Dawn" has radars active on the "Sub North" and "Sub South" missions; "God of War" has this problem with the "Active Subs" mission while the "Surge Zone" mission has both surface ships and submarines attached to it meaning that it's probably best to not have the subs inherit their EMCON status; "Salvo" is an interesting case since the Charlotte, Oklahoma City, and Hawaii are programmed to have their radars on during peacetime but off during wartime which makes a certain amount of sense so I'm not entirely sure this is an oversight; Okinawa Bound has this issue with the "USS Hawaii Trak" and "Okinawa Phib Zone" missions on the US-Japan side; "Showpieces" has almost every Chinese sub patrol with active radars except for "PLAN 330 Trak" and "Sea Control North" and lastly; "Air Sea Battle" actually does have every sub patrol with active radars.

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 3/7/2020 6:36:04 PM   
goldfinger35


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I agree. I was also surprised when enemy subs in Operation Brass Drum were detectable.

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 3/7/2020 8:09:22 PM   
SeaQueen


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Something interesting to experiment with that I haven't yet, would be to use LUA or triggers to switch the EMCON for submarine based missions so that at night they turn their radars on (since they can't see unless they have fancy periscopes) and during the day they turn their radars off, because the sun is shining.

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 3/7/2020 9:07:32 PM   
stilesw


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Hmmm. I believe that could be done based on time of day with periodic time checks but that wouldn't easily handle seasonal variations, changing time zones, weather conditions or daylight savings.

-WS

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“There is no limit to what a man can do so long as he does not care a straw who gets the credit for it.”

Charles Edward Montague, English novelist and essayist
~Disenchantment, ch. 15 (1922)

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 3/8/2020 10:14:01 AM   
apache85

 

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This is actually being looked at at the moment, as well as some other improvements to submarine behaviour that have been mentioned in the past.

The Brass Drum subs shouldn't have their radars on--that one is on me

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 3/8/2020 3:23:36 PM   
SeaQueen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stilesw
Hmmm. I believe that could be done based on time of day with periodic time checks but that wouldn't easily handle seasonal variations, changing time zones, weather conditions or daylight savings.


The easiest way to handle it would be if you could just return whether or not it's day or night at the position that the submarine is located. Although honestly, most scenarios aren't so large that these things matter hugely.

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 3/8/2020 3:35:48 PM   
stilesw


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quote:

Although honestly, most scenarios aren't so large that these things matter hugely.

That's a good point - not worldwide and probably a couple of days at the most.
A little research on the author's part could determine the sunrise, sunset that would be associated with a particular scenario's based on its location and season then a simple time check would determine if the sensor should be on or off.

-WS

_____________________________

“There is no limit to what a man can do so long as he does not care a straw who gets the credit for it.”

Charles Edward Montague, English novelist and essayist
~Disenchantment, ch. 15 (1922)

(in reply to SeaQueen)
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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 7/8/2020 2:16:50 PM   
tmoilanen

 

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Quick question - if a submarine is assigned to a Sea Control Patrol will it attack both Surface and Submarine targets?

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 7/8/2020 2:34:06 PM   
thewood1

 

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A) might want to ask a question like this in its own thread instead of buried in a four month old dead one.

B) Yes, it should.

From the manual:

"New Patrol Type: Sea Control Patrol. This folds ASuW [anti
surface] and ASW [anti-submarine] patrols into one. Units
under a sea control mission will engage both surface and
underwater targets"

Its mentioned several times in the manual. But there are a lot of nuances in subs around ROEs so you have to be careful with side, unit, and mission ROEs.

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 7/9/2020 9:18:26 AM   
goldfinger35


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Question regarding Sea Control Patrol and MPA planes:
I want MPA plane to patrol the area and ID ships (and subs) but ships could be armed with AA guns so I want the plane to fly at 8.000 ft. Even if I set missions station&attack altitude at 8.000, plane still dives when he wants to ID the skunk so I have to manually (F2) set altitude at 8.000. Any tips?

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 7/9/2020 1:27:53 PM   
thewood1

 

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Any question like that isn't going to get a good answer beyond a guess without a save. There are just too many variables.

One guess is cloud cover. How high is the cloud base? I make the mistake of not considering visibility impact on AI reactions to orders all the time.

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 7/10/2020 6:12:05 AM   
Dimitris


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Maybe the plane just isn't able to make the ID from high altitude, so it needs to come down to see better? (We added this behavior explicitly as a response to an oft-reported situation: "My plane circles endlessly over a single ship contact because it cannot ID it at this altitude").

As thewood1 said, a save would help explain the situation and its variables better.

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RE: A courteous PSA to all scenario designers - 7/10/2020 8:20:54 AM   
goldfinger35


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I am posting the test scenario here, if that is ok. Station and attack altitude are set at 9.000 but when MPA detects the skunk, it goes to 19.000 ft and then dives to 4.900-7.000 (I want to avoid that in case it has AAA/manpads... Clouds are at 10.000.


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< Message edited by goldfinger35 -- 7/10/2020 8:22:14 AM >

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