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Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no?

 
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Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/2/2020 10:29:22 PM   
Q-Ball


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I am playing Scen 28 (DDB-C), and the IJN CSs are generally not available to convert to CVL until after 11/42. It takes 300 days. I am curious: Do you convert them, or not?

There is no question they are more valuable units as CVL than CS. The problem is you can't snap your fingers and make it so.

Those 300 days, from 11/42 through 8/43, are a critical time for the IJN. Late 1943 is as well, but by the time 1944 rolls around it's debateable whether a couple more CVLs are going to matter. You could argue those 300 days means they come back too late to make a difference.

In the meantime, the CS is not useless; you can pack it with RUFES for extra CAP. You can pack it with Jakes to take pressure off DBs for search. You can do one of each! They also have some AA to provide.

My gut tells me to leave them be, but I am curious what others think. It's a tough call, because some more CVLs are clearly better. I suppose you can split the difference, converting Chitose/Chiyoda but keeping Nisshin, which can't convert until 12/42.

As an aside, not even sure what to do with Mizuho. The speed is a killer, only fit to run with CVEs. I suppose that's the role.

What do you think?

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 3/2/2020 10:30:55 PM >


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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/2/2020 10:39:37 PM   
RADM.Yamaguchi


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It seems to me that it is dependent on your carrier losses. i haven't lost any so i don't plan on converting. If i lose some CVLs i may rethink that. It may be that the rufe cap would help to a degree. and a bunch of jakes on low nav wouldn't hurt either. Slow CSs stay with the CVEs for me.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/2/2020 11:32:21 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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I think I would convert the fast ones; by end of 42 I am no longer moving the KB on waters outside LBA range or at least not too far away from it; and I won't be using KB as a lone TF, that is not wise, not even in early war. Instead multiple cruiser TFs, submarines, CVE and (slow) CS has to be in close support of the KB. they can enhance the search, CAP and ASW capabilities

And Ruffe is not that great of an asset, at most it is the equivalent of a Claude

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 3/2/2020 11:34:55 PM >

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/2/2020 11:34:06 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am playing Scen 28 (DDB-C), and the IJN CSs are generally not available to convert to CVL until after 11/42. It takes 300 days. I am curious: Do you convert them, or not?

There is no question they are more valuable units as CVL than CS. The problem is you can't snap your fingers and make it so.

Those 300 days, from 11/42 through 8/43, are a critical time for the IJN. Late 1943 is as well, but by the time 1944 rolls around it's debateable whether a couple more CVLs are going to matter. You could argue those 300 days means they come back too late to make a difference.

In the meantime, the CS is not useless; you can pack it with RUFES for extra CAP. You can pack it with Jakes to take pressure off DBs for search. You can do one of each! They also have some AA to provide.

My gut tells me to leave them be, but I am curious what others think. It's a tough call, because some more CVLs are clearly better. I suppose you can split the difference, converting Chitose/Chiyoda but keeping Nisshin, which can't convert until 12/42.

As an aside, not even sure what to do with Mizuho. The speed is a killer, only fit to run with CVEs. I suppose that's the role.

What do you think?


Q-ball, there was a thread on this topic approximately 2 months ago. You may want to do a search for it. Consensus was all over the place for the reasons you identify.

Several people (myself included) keep Mizuho for floatplane group expansion, floatplane training and / or Tanker convoy support.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/3/2020 12:30:46 AM   
RangerJoe


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You can maximize groups to larger than the maximum listed as capacity. For a 20 plane capacity, you can to up to 24 aircraft . . .

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/3/2020 12:33:48 AM   
Scott_USN

 

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Sort of off topic but does anyone have any luck using CVE or CVL as anti-submarine ships?

Last time I tried sending one into sub infested waters she got torpedo in the side LOL. Expensive experiment.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/3/2020 1:15:03 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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CVEs are torpedo magnets, so I won't do it,
plus they consume a lot of fuel, compared to a subchaser. Better to build a small base for ASW or use float planes/ park AVs

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/3/2020 1:15:15 AM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_USN

Sort of off topic but does anyone have any luck using CVE or CVL as anti-submarine ships?

Last time I tried sending one into sub infested waters she got torpedo in the side LOL. Expensive experiment.

Scott you might want to list this as a separate thread....

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/3/2020 1:32:14 AM   
Scott_USN

 

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Yeah just Chickenboy brought the question to mind.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/3/2020 5:46:40 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

you can pack it with RUFES for extra CAP.


Can you? I convert every FP unit I can to Rufe's, but AFAIK those units on the CS's do not convert. And I play PDU ON.

quote:

As an aside, not even sure what to do with Mizuho. The speed is a killer


After the conversion she gains 2 knots of speed to 24 max. Why? I know not. Go ask the Dev's. She can run with the 25 knots CV's. At any rate her cruise speed is 15 knots, same as all the other CV's, except Kaga, with has a cruise of 14.

All this being said, including above, I think too many players look at too much in isolation. Consider this... Advance some of the other carriers that are building. You can get at least 3 of those 61 (forget the names) build rate CV's to arrive at approximately the same time as the CS conversions. Voila, a brand spanking new carrier TF in late '43.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/3/2020 5:52:58 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

CVEs are torpedo magnets, so I won't do it,
plus they consume a lot of fuel, compared to a subchaser. Better to build a small base for ASW or use float planes/ park AVs


CVEs can operate normally in a base hex. If you do use them as ASW, it would be best to have a flock of good ASW TFs operating around it using the aircraft to find the submarines while the ASW TFs prosecute the sub.

The Allies don't have to worry too much about fuel other than getting it to where it is needed. If subs are in the way and/or targeting your convoys then use the CVEs to help save the convoys, especially the tanker convoys. The CVEs and ASW TFs can clear the way, including spreading out in a Vee shape ahead of the convoys.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/3/2020 9:08:28 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

CVEs are torpedo magnets, so I won't do it,
plus they consume a lot of fuel, compared to a subchaser. Better to build a small base for ASW or use float planes/ park AVs


CVEs can operate normally in a base hex. If you do use them as ASW, it would be best to have a flock of good ASW TFs operating around it using the aircraft to find the submarines while the ASW TFs prosecute the sub.

The Allies don't have to worry too much about fuel other than getting it to where it is needed. If subs are in the way and/or targeting your convoys then use the CVEs to help save the convoys, especially the tanker convoys. The CVEs and ASW TFs can clear the way, including spreading out in a Vee shape ahead of the convoys.

Patrol aircraft should be used to spot the sub before the CVE TF is sent in to kill it. Once you have a D/L on the sub from the Patrol aircraft, it is much harder for the sub to get the drop on the CVE and easier for the CVE to find it. Subs can only react one hex, so try to keep the CVE 2-3 hexes away from the known/expected sub location. Also bear in mind that the CVE ASW aircraft only go half the range you set for the squadron, so you need to set range 6 to get a three hex ASW search/attack.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 2:15:27 AM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Also bear in mind that the CVE ASW aircraft only go half the range you set for the squadron, so you need to set range 6 to get a three hex ASW search/attack.

If you set to 5 hexes, does it round up or down? I don't recall reading this in the manual.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 2:16:03 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Also bear in mind that the CVE ASW aircraft only go half the range you set for the squadron, so you need to set range 6 to get a three hex ASW search/attack.

If you set to 5 hexes, does it round up or down? I don't recall reading this in the manual.

Down, I believe. But don't ask me where I remember that from.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 2:18:20 AM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Down, I believe. But don't ask me where I remember that from.

Ok, that's honest, thanks. Does anyone know definitively? Please let us know your source if you can. Thanks.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 2:35:11 AM   
PaxMondo


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CB is correct, it is truncated, not rounded. You'll have to either search or hope that Alfred drops in because it was in the thread YEARS ago and at least one dev was involved in the discussion. Dan or Don, can't remember who now.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 2:36:24 AM   
RangerJoe


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Down. Any fractions are dropped, never rounded.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 3:07:37 AM   
Scott_USN

 

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What is a good altitude for planes on ASW?

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 3:52:26 AM   
RangerJoe


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1000 feet to surprise the sub although it may not detect the sub due to the lessened search area visibility compared to a higher altitude. Even Whirlaways will work to keep the area around your ports clear.

Naval Search may also detect subs but at a reduced chance.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 3:55:47 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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1000 feet; lower will mean OP losses

early on, I use naval search, because there are no pilots trained in ASW

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 3:56:27 AM   
Scott_USN

 

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Thanks

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 3:58:43 AM   
RangerJoe


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Early on, I use 50% ASW and 50% training. Besides Naval Search. Near ports, don't forget to set your search arcs, subs are not found on land.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 6:07:44 AM   
Kursk1943

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

1000 feet; lower will mean OP losses

early on, I use naval search, because there are no pilots trained in ASW


I'm doing 100 feet with good results (Allied). Can't remember any OP losses, but have to rest the groups on ASW from time to time because of dropping morale. Seems to be quite a boring and depressing job to cruise above the ocean at 100 feet day by day...

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 6:54:24 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

1000 feet; lower will mean OP losses

early on, I use naval search, because there are no pilots trained in ASW


I'm doing 100 feet with good results (Allied). Can't remember any OP losses, but have to rest the groups on ASW from time to time because of dropping morale. Seems to be quite a boring and depressing job to cruise above the ocean at 100 feet day by day...

The fatigue is from dodging the flying fish and seagulls all the time at 100 feet ...

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 8:20:59 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

1000 feet; lower will mean OP losses

early on, I use naval search, because there are no pilots trained in ASW


I'm doing 100 feet with good results (Allied). Can't remember any OP losses, but have to rest the groups on ASW from time to time because of dropping morale. Seems to be quite a boring and depressing job to cruise above the ocean at 100 feet day by day...

The fatigue is from dodging the flying fish and seagulls all the time at 100 feet ...


I wouldn't say that it would be boring. You would have to be intent on your job or you would get to see what is next . . .

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 9:14:01 PM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Down. Any fractions are dropped, never rounded.

Thanks, but what is your source? When you say "never" does that apply to all circumstances when a fraction of a hex is considered or just ASW? Again, if you could point to a source that would be exceedingly helpful.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/4/2020 9:19:27 PM   
RangerJoe


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RTFM.

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/5/2020 2:34:57 AM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

RTFM.

Please tell me what "RTFM" means.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/5/2020 2:44:15 AM   
Scott_USN

 

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Umm Read the Manual with more expletives.

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RE: Chitose/Chiyoda: Convert or no? - 3/5/2020 3:48:42 AM   
Ian R

 

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Getting back to the OP -

As an allied player I'd say they are more use as CVL, at least the quicker ones.

I say that because until the intel picture sharpens I can't tell if Zero CAP knocking down my PBYs, or Judys/Jills searching my stuff, is coming from the KB or a single CVL.

They throw an air zone which my cruisers won't enter, and they can augment the KB when needed.

So I would suggest converting the three that can do 28kts.



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