Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Turkey, viable option for the Axis?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> WarPlan >> Turkey, viable option for the Axis? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/28/2020 7:49:07 AM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
For those of you who do not frequent the Beta forum, please read this thread:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4768155

Whether or not Turkey is viable as a strategic option for the Axis depends for a large part on the infrastructure. I have been doing some research for a mod I am making. Some of the information I could find is in the thread.

Main thing is, that I think a rail line between Turkey and the USSR and Turkey and Iraq is probably the way to go, based on what I can find.

The hard thing is, a rail line being there is one thing, enough rolling stock and whether or not it can effectively operate in winter conditions for example are also a factor. Was the rail line single or double? Questions, questions.

And how to model the difference in rail gauges? Especially the rail line from Ankara to Tblisi (USSR) is a good example. The gauge changed (picture in the beta forum thread), necessitating a transfer. One could represent this by interrupting the rail line with a road hex. But is this warranted? A Warplan turn is 2 weeks, isn't that enough time to incorporate switching trains here and there? Hard to say.

Also, if the Axis would have gone for Turkey it is likely they would have taken additional measures to optimize the rail lines with extra manpower, etc. to squeeze the maximum out of it. I know they did this in other places as well, so why not here.

Long story short, any info on Turkey is welcome. And what do you think?

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 2/28/2020 9:21:50 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/28/2020 9:51:48 AM   
tyronec


Posts: 4248
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: online
If you have a rail line across Istanbul and up to the Soviet border/down to Iraq than invasion Turkey is ON for Axis and as we saw in the earlier versions it can lead to a short game. Capture either Soviet or Middle East oil fields and Axis have a massive boost to combat power. Oil = Panzers + Bombers = Victory.

Without a continuous rail line and invasion Turkey is likely OFF, have not seen anyone try it successfully yet.

Warplan logistics being what they are it is a binary choice, am not sure how you can implement anything more nuanced.

(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 2
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/28/2020 10:01:25 AM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
There will not be a continuous line from Berlin to Baghdad. The line will be interrupted at Istanbul. Like it is now in Vanilla. The need to use a ferry at Istanbul is represented by a road hex.

There was however an uninterrupted line between Istanbul and Baghdad. Alvaro is going to introduce that in the next beta.

Also a rail line running from Istanbul to the Caucasus was there. It used different gauges at some points however so this handicapped it. Of course the gauge issues are also represented by the scorched earth thing for Turkey (same as for the USSR). So what to do with that one?

But having no experience as the Axis in Turkey, it seems that THE most important factor whether to attack Turkey is the existence of a continuous rail line from Berlin crossing the Bosporus at Istanbul into Turkey? It isn't there in the stock scenario (anymore) and for good reason (it did not exist historically). Is that THE killing blow for a Turkey strategy?

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 2/28/2020 10:28:25 AM >

(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 3
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/28/2020 11:04:50 AM   
Hoyt Burrass


Posts: 299
Joined: 6/30/2004
From: Montgomery, Alabama
Status: offline
In my opinion, there was just not enough rolling stock and other logistical infrastructure to support the kind of massive drive of troops that Axis players will push across the Bosporus to clear the Middle East. I think the current vanilla model that breaks the rail line at Ankara (which, as you mention, did not exist) and then has Turkey as a scorched earth country may do enough to limit the Axis push to a reasonable level. I don't think it was ever a viable strategy in reality because it would have caused more problems than it solved. I did some digging that I provided to Alvaro early on...I'm sure you've run across the same internet resources that I found...I can dig up the links and provide what I found if you wish...let me know.

< Message edited by Hoyt Burrass -- 2/28/2020 11:39:12 AM >


_____________________________

Roll Tide

(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 4
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/28/2020 11:24:28 AM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 6795
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: online
The Eastern rail lines in Turkey were terrible. Thus why they are roads. I did my own research and followed what SC3 did for rail lines. I added the one Mike mentioned in the next Beta. I must have missed it on the SC3 map because it is there.

Sometimes in games you need a balance of systems to make the game balanced. In WarPlan 2 I might introduced reduced rail lines. Acts like a rail for map level supply but is limited like a port for stockpile.

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to Hoyt Burrass)
Post #: 5
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/28/2020 12:11:58 PM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
Reduced rail lines would be a great addition. No longer a binary issue that way. But to be honest, I think that Warplan Europe would benefit from that concept much more than Pacific...

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 6
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/28/2020 12:25:17 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 2872
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
In WarPlan 2 I might introduced reduced rail lines. Acts like a rail for map level supply but is limited like a port for stockpile.


Maybe consider roads being able to do this, to augment the rail lines for limited supply and perhaps limited rail moves?

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 7
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/28/2020 1:08:37 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4248
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: online
quote:

But having no experience as the Axis in Turkey, it seems that THE most important factor whether to attack Turkey is the existence of a continuous rail line from Berlin crossing the Bosporus at Istanbul into Turkey? It isn't there in the stock scenario (anymore) and for good reason (it did not exist historically). Is that THE killing blow for a Turkey strategy?

I think so. In the game you either have rail supply or port supply. To support a strong force with port supply you need big ports close to the front line. I just don't see how that works for Axis to attack through Turkey. It also makes it difficult for the Allies to attack through Turkey. Once one side declares war on Turkey the other side has a major supply advantage in the area.

With the earlier version Axis could advance down through Turkey and have full rail supply to attack both Russia and the Middle East.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 8
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/28/2020 1:59:02 PM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
How about this:


- No Istanbul continuous rail line (same as vanilla)
- A continuous rail line from Istanbul to Baghdad (soon to be vanilla)
- An interrupted rail line to the Caucasus (at Erzurum the rail gauge changed to the Russian gauge)

(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 9
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/29/2020 12:50:03 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4401
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
Why not consider that if the Axis decided on a Turkey strategy they may have upgraded or even extended the rail net. No more fantastical than German Amphibious Pz Corp.

_____________________________


(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 10
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/29/2020 2:31:45 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 1975
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline
yes add and upgrade railway feature! that you need to pay for per hex. Turkey as it stands is of little use to any side.

_____________________________


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 11
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/29/2020 6:24:06 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4401
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
The game has lost me. I am moving on.

_____________________________


(in reply to tigercub)
Post #: 12
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/29/2020 7:08:56 AM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

yes add and upgrade railway feature! that you need to pay for per hex. Turkey as it stands is of little use to any side.

Still researching Turkeys infrastructure and found some great new information, that makes me add a few stretches of road.

Concerning improvement of the rail network, there is no way that a rail bridge could be built across the Bosporus at Istanbul. Maybe what is viable, is making the rail line from Erzurum to the Soviet frontier a continuous line. It would simulate a great effort to transform the line to the same gauge as used between Istanbul-Ankara-Erzurum.

In my mod I introduced a road hex next to Erzurum to interrupt the rail line to the Soviet frontier to simulate the gauge change. By event that hex could be changed to rail (much like the two road hexes next to Tabriz in Vanilla).

(in reply to tigercub)
Post #: 13
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 2/29/2020 2:10:42 PM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline

These events would transform the rail line:

//Railroad at Erzurum (Turkey) is improved if Turkey joins the Axis
$ChangeLogistics
if_Date=9/1/1939
if_Country=53
if_Alliance=Axis
// Axis controls the Erzurum - Kars rail line
xyControl=207,30,Axis
xyControl=208,31,Axis
xyControl=209,31,Axis
xyControl=210,32,Axis
xyControl=211,32,Axis
xyControl=211,33,Axis
xyControl=212,34,Axis
xyControl=213,34,Axis
lifespan=tillTrigger
actionCountry=53
//change road to rail
xyArea=207,30,33
addReportTo=All
text=Turkey (with German assistance) converts the Erzurum - Kars rail line to the same gauge as the rest of the Turkish line. It can now be used as a continuous rail connection from Istanbul all the way to the frontier with the Soviet Union.
$End

//Railroad at Erzurum (Turkey) is improved, if Turkey has surrendered to the Germans
$ChangeLogistics
if_Date=9/1/1939
// If Turkey has surrendered
if_Country=53
if_Surrender=true
// Axis controls the Erzurum - Kars rail line
xyControl=207,30,Axis
xyControl=208,31,Axis
xyControl=209,31,Axis
xyControl=210,32,Axis
xyControl=211,32,Axis
xyControl=211,33,Axis
xyControl=212,34,Axis
xyControl=213,34,Axis
lifespan=tillTrigger
actionCountry=6
//change road to rail
xyArea=207,30,33
addReportTo=All
text=Germany converts the Erzurum - Kars rail line to the same gauge as the rest of the Turkish line. It can now be used as a continuous rail connection from Istanbul all the way to the frontier with the Soviet Union.
$End

(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 14
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/1/2020 5:15:06 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1016
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: online
NO ... NO ... NNNNOOOOOO!!!

There most certainly WAS NOT a continuous RR line from Constantinople to Baghdad.

There had been a line* until the end of WW1 ... at which point, or soon thereafter in the early 1920's, the British ...

* TORE UP *ALL* THE RAILS
* Removed or burnt *ALL* the sleepers
* Destroyed ALL the infrastructure (watering points, coaling points, maintenance depots etc.



THERE WAS NO RR line between the Turkish Border and Baghdad.

(* Note: The 'line' such as it was was SINGLE TRACKED and of limited capacity even for a single tracked line ... lots of steep grades and low capacity bridges etc.)

This was extensively researched and debunked about 15 years ago on soc.history.what-if.

To add to the woes of the 'Turkish Solution' ... the Turkish RR DID NOT HAVE SUFFICIENT rolling stock or locomotives to run the lines they actually did have at full capacity ... and the Germans didn't have the spare industrial capacity to build enough key RR stock for themselves, let alone for the Turks.

Phil McGregor

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 15
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/1/2020 5:20:17 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1016
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: online
Also note that the RR lines through Syria didn't effectively run north south, even though they're shown on the map, at least not from the Turkish border ... they ran east to the Iraqi border ... and were of such limited capacity that they effectively ended there and all freight and passengers had to transfer to the almost as limited capacity Iraqi RR.

The rest of the RR lines in Syria weren't always connected *effectively* even if they ran to the same places - they were commercial lines running to Mines etc. and not intended to be 'through' lines.

The best way to represent the limited capacity of the Syrian RR net is to convert it all to roads. Ditto the mostly mythical Palestinian Mandate RR lines ...

Phil McGregor

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 16
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/1/2020 5:43:01 AM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
Interesting!

I found this (small piece, rest behind a paywal) in an English newspaper or magazine of 1940:
on the night of July 17, 1940, the first through passenger train for Istanbul steamed out of Baghdad, the conclusion was at last written to one of the most dramatic of the stories of diplomatic and financial rivalry that have marked the last half century of European power politics. The Berlin-to-Baghdad Railway had now become a reality -- though not, as originally intended, under the aegis of Germany. Constructed primarily for peaceful commerce, the line nevertheless is of high military importance, and its completion at this moment is significant.

Through passengers from Europe to points on the Baghdad Railway must transfer at Istanbul by ferry across the Bosphorus to Haydar Pasha, while at Baghdad they must change again -- from the standard-gauge (4′ 8½″) line to the Baghdad-Basra metre-gauge (3′ 3
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/middle-east/1941-04-01/berlin-baghdad-date

My quote ends rather abruptly; the rest of it is behind a paywall.

But this suggest there was indeed a connection between Baghdad and Istanbul in July 1940.

Do you have a link to your sources?

Again, very interesting. You learn every day.

Ow, this is the guy that wrote article on the Baghdad - Berlin railroad:
PHILIP W. IRELAND
Deputy Chief of Mission
Baghdad (1951-1955)
Philip W. Ireland was born in Iowa in 1904. He graduated from Oxford University with a B.A. in 1933 and a M.A. in 1937. He received a Ph.D. from the
London School of Economics in 1936. Before joining the Foreign Service, he was a professor at the American University in Beirut and the University of Chicago.
His career included posts in Egypt, Iraq, Greece, and Syria.

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 3/1/2020 7:25:12 AM >

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 17
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/1/2020 7:22:35 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1016
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: online
You can try the archives for soc.history.what-if (and good luck with that!).

As I understand it, the only route that existed was from Istanbul, Turkey, to Aleppo, Syria (I am not sure from memory, but you EITHER had to change trains at the border with Syria OR in Aleppo), thence by Syrian RR (well, actually by French Chemins de Fer dde Cilicie Nord-Syria as the tracks ran for most of the route, quite literally, just inside the Turkish border with Syria, to the Iraqi border where you had to change to a motor coach to Kirkuk and thence by meter gauge Iraqi RR to Baghdad from 1930-1940.

After 1940 there was a connection between the Syrian Border and Kirkuk (still meter gauge until 1965).

The newspaper report is referring to this service ... run by the Societie International des Wagons Lits (i.e. passenger and limited freight ... the famous 'Orient Express' company). There were evidently 3-4 services a week from Istanbul to Aleppo then one a week from Aleppo to the Iraqi border to 1940 when, as far as I can tell, it remained at one per week.

The problem was the changeovers were required partly because of gauge change, partly because of different rolling stock requirements for the three nations involved, and partly since none of those nations had enough rolling stock or locomotives even for the limited services they were already running).

Maps that show connections running direct through central Anatolia to northern Iraq are bogus for WW2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin%E2%80%93Baghdad_railway

Phil McGregor

Phil

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 18
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/1/2020 12:08:13 PM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
Thank you for sharing what you know on the matter.

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 19
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/1/2020 4:50:45 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 407
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
There are maps in this article, not sure how accurate it is.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320569684_The_Impact_of_Baghdad-Berlin_Railway_on_Britain's_Nautical_and_Commercial_Interests_in_Iraq's_Rivers

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/this-week-in-world-war-i_b_6871470

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/de-berlin-baghdad-3.htm

Lots of interesting reads. Wow. Who knew. Thanks guys.



< Message edited by ago1000 -- 3/1/2020 4:55:31 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 20
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/1/2020 9:52:00 PM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1016
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: online
The link to the first map is behind a security wall.'

The second map is obviously not only NOT an accurate representation of the route, but not INTENDED to be accurate ... it is an 'infographic' and meant to indicate a general link, rather than a specific route.

The third map is obviously accurate ... for WW1 ... but is accurate in that it shows the route followed.

Note: Just because an old, more or less contemporary, map shows a rail link does NOT, sadly, in my experience, actually mean an ACTUAL link was there or, if it was, that it was active and, if the latter, that it had significant capacity.

Yugoslavia is a case in point ... I found a map of the German plans for the invasion online and a map showing RR lines but, more importantly, there was a written account of the shortcomings of each RR line. Suffice it to say that some of the lines terminated at points well outside the country when in WarPlan they are shown as linked, others ran on routes that were quite ridiculously wrong, and the ones that existed more often than not had VERY restricted capacities.

One key problem with WarPlan is that the RR capacity of the *capturing* country applies, immediately, to any capture country, even if the captured country's RR cap was MUCH lower than that of the capturing country ... reality dictates that this is complete rubbish (unless you're the Allies, in which case it isn't ... quite ... suffice it to say, the Allies [the US mostly] had the industrial capacity to increase RR capacity by providing extra rolling stock and locos as well as building or rebuilding rail, maintenance and other support infrastructure on a *massive* basis while German and the Axis in general ... DIDN'T).

Phil McGregor

< Message edited by aspqrz02 -- 3/1/2020 9:53:24 PM >


_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to ago1000)
Post #: 21
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/2/2020 12:35:27 AM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 6795
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: online
I do the best with what I got to make a fun game. No one wants to micro-manage rail road cars.... or calculating enough water to make pasta for the Italians in the desert.

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 22
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/2/2020 3:43:37 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1016
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: online
Indeed, I get that.

That said, putting rail links where they actually didn't exist AT ALL, or running along routes they NEVER ran on as opposed to those they ACTUALLY ran along is, really, unacceptable.

There are ways around, for example, the rubbish rail capacity in Syria ... turn all Syrian RR hexes into road hexes is the perfect solution ... so in that case the RR capacity of potential German conquest is irrelevant, as there ISN'T any capacity, which more closely models reality.

That way you don't get ridiculous situations where an entire German Russia-level Army Group with multiple mechanised units is being supplied through Turkey into the Middle East ... which simply Was. Not. Possible.

Phil McGregor

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 23
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/2/2020 8:51:27 AM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
Right now now I am at this picture:


-There is no direct connection at Istanbul.
-There is a direct connection between Istanbul and Baghdad, despite the fact that its capacity was limited.
-There is no direct connection from Erzurum to the USSR, I decided to make it a road instead representing the gauge change at Erzurum and the limited capacity.
-There is a road from Trabzom to Erzurum to Tabriz
Although there was some motor traffic between Trebizond and Erzerum (and possibly Tabriz) during the early 1920s, the journey was a
highly adventurous one, as those who have read Colonel A. Rawlinson's Adventures in the Near East will recollect. It was not until 1931 that the
Turkish Government, anxious to recapture its lost transit trade, started to convert the old caravan route into a first-class motor highway. Although
work on this road is still in progress—for there have been immense physical difficulties to overcome as well as war-time shortages of manpower—
it is well on the way to becoming one of the best motor roads in the Near East, with the added attraction of passing through some of the
finest mountain scenery in Turkey. With its easy gradients, wide bends and strong bridges of reinforced concrete, it has for some years been
capable of taking fully loaded commercial vehicles, and in 1937 a regular passenger and freight bus service was inaugurated between
Trebizond (Trabzon) and the Persian frontier, while in 1940-41 the Germans were able to use the road to bring lorry loads of Persian cotton to Trebizond (Trabzon), whence it could be shipped to Europe without fear of interference from our naval blockade.

- There is now the Hopa (at the border with the USSR, just south of Batumi) - Kars road
The Hopa-Kars road, almost 100 miles farther east as the crow flies, is the only other motor road leading into the interior from the coast, and
was originally built by the Russians after their acquisition of the districts of Batum, Artvin, Ardahan and Kars under the Treaty of Berlin. When
in 1921 Turkey regained the last three districts by her Treaty of Kars with Soviet Russia, the road, except for the first few miles from Batum,
ran exclusively through Turkish territory. In the 1930s the Turks built a motor road from Hopa across the coastal mountains to Borçka, where it
joined the road to Kars, since when the Batum-Borçka section has been allowed to fall into disrepair, as for many years there has been virtually
no communication between Russia and Turkey along this part of their frontier.
I travelled the length of this road in October, 1941, spending two nights at Ardahan and one on the Yaliniz Çam Pass on the way, and
was impressed by the comparatively good condition of the surface, though, as there is no maintenance system in operation, I got the
impression that, in view of the very small amount of motor traffic using the road, it would soon suffer from neglect.


(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 24
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/2/2020 11:36:35 AM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 2872
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
No one wants to micro-manage rail road cars...


Ticket To Ride - Europe WWII?



(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 25
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/2/2020 12:59:28 PM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1016
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: online
Direct connection from Istanbul to Baghdad?

(Allowing as it's not from the European side of Istanbul)

Really depends on what you call 'direct' ...

You had to change trains at Aleppo or the Turkish Syrian Border.

You had to change trains at the Syrian-Iraq Border.

You had to change trains at Mosul because the track to Baghdad from there was Meter gauge not Standard Gauge.

You might be able to supply an Infantry Corps or three (Axis, that is) in northern Iraq, barely ... but anything more is pure fantasy ... a bad thing for a game which touts itself as having such an accurate logistics model, I would have thought.

Also note that the road from Baghdad to Amman didn't exist (or didn't exist as a major road, which is what 'roads' represent, surely) ... the route ran to Haditha (roughly 3 hexes NNW of Baghdad) then from there SW to the Jordanian Border THEN west to Amman.

Also note that there is a Meter gauge rail line from Baghdad to Kut and NO road (in the same sense as above) from Kut southeast.

I am pretty sure that, by 1939, the line from Amman to the south was no longer operational and, indeed, as far as I can tell, the tracks had been ripped up, stations and other infrastructure slighted.

Likewise, I am pretty sure that the RR line showing a connection between Haifa and Syria also didn't exist in a functional way, if at all.

Phil McGregor

< Message edited by aspqrz02 -- 3/2/2020 1:05:33 PM >


_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 26
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/2/2020 1:19:11 PM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1016
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
No one wants to micro-manage rail road cars


But it WOULD be a good thing if the RR capacity of a country remained whatever it was before it was conquered AFTER it was conquered ...

So if the Axis conquers Country A which has an abysmal RR capacity of, say, 10, then that's all that can be shipped over the rail lines in that country regardless of Germany's capacity.

For the Balkans, Middle East and Iberian Peninsula this would be a good thing ...

But, yeah, it wouldn't make for a 'fun' game that allows the Axis to easily conquer the world.

Phil McGregor

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 27
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/2/2020 1:23:12 PM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
I also used this:


You are right about the Badhdad to Kut rail, it is on this map also. I will change that. Good call.
Something like this:


And yes the definition of "direct" regarding the line Istanbul to Baghdad is gamewise: in the game it is treated as a direct line (despite all the transfers that were necessary). Yes was is of limited capacity, but I chose to do it this way.

About the the line from Amman to the south and the connection between Haifa and Syria, I have not really looked into that yet. If you have stuff on this, let me know!

And I appreciate your input!

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 3/2/2020 1:27:44 PM >

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 28
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/2/2020 1:40:14 PM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1016
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: online
No road from Kut south east.

For the Hejaz Rail line see ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hejaz_railway#World_War_II

... but read the section on the 1960's, immediately below, which states that the line south of the Jordanian border was defunct by the 1920's.

The ripping up of the rails and slighting of the infrastructure ... I read that, somewhere, a long while ago ... but I cannot remember where, exactly.

Still, non-op for WW2.

Also, my information is that the 'road' north of Tehran to the Caspian and thence along the Caspian to the twin ports to the west was actually a Rail line ... and those twin ports were major shipping ports for supplying Russia before the through RR line was completed.

Phil McGregor

Phil

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 29
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis? - 3/2/2020 5:06:07 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 407
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
Looks awesome.
I'm wondering in early game, if Russia can declare war on Turkey? Maybe script needs to be added if Russia were to conquer Turkey. Just a thought.
The rail line is a very cool idea.

_____________________________


(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> WarPlan >> Turkey, viable option for the Axis? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.273