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RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 3:31:36 AM   
durnedwolf


Posts: 862
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

It spices it up, imo.
Otherwise it's just counting the dead and predicting how bleak the future is.

A good political fight is a welcome distraction.
A religious fight an even better one (I'm up for it if anyone is interested).



A nun slapped me in class when I was a kid. I have a grudge.


But why did she slap you? You weren't trying to look up her skirt, where you?

I remember back in 7th grade I was at a catholic school. Before there was MADD there was NWR VS KWS (Nuns with rulers against kids with spitballs)... I know its hard to believe but I was kind of a jerk as a kid...



_____________________________


DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 2881
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 3:31:42 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 24999
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

Canoerebel, for most of the world, universal healthcare is a given, accepted by both ends of the political system. OK, I understand it's a difficult subject for American politics, even though I don't undestand why.

Regarding, your personal situation, I think you are fortunate that you can afford the costs involved in your healthcare system. What about those who can't? The article I provided had some numbers in it.
44% of Americans declined to see a doctor due to cost. This is a very large portion of the population.

Inefficient public healthcare that can give all people what they need is preferable in my book to efficient private healthcare that excludes almost half the country. I'm just saying that financial efficiency is not the end goal of hospitals, it's curing people.

Not at all so universal as those words make it seem. You have to look very deep into it. I'm not going to debate it here, just registering that I do not agree.

_____________________________


(in reply to Olorin)
Post #: 2882
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 3:48:25 AM   
durnedwolf


Posts: 862
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Loka, you and others haven't batted an eye at the most overtly offensive political commentary in here. I could give examples but won't, mainly because I'll be calling out people who spoke I the heat of the moment but who are well-regarded members of this community.

As for MindMessing, if you read through this thread in total, you'll see the repeated snarky nature of his comments, my repeated requests that he take it private or elsewhere, and his refusal to do so. There have been private asides between him and me, and there has been past history, in which he repeats his behavior ad nauseum. I disagree with him on many things - as I do with others - but his behavior has been beyond anything I've encountered before on a Matrix site, by far.

I have him blocked now, so hopefully we can coexist peacefully. But if my presence and attempts to avoid the political mayhem in here (that allegedly wouldn't transpire) fail, I'll bow out of the thread I started.



I think ya'll need a hug. Not just you but everyone that's been pushing too hard. For those getting their dander up - take a chill-pill - or go outside for a walk while keeping a safe distance from others. We all have a fondness for this forum and most of us have good memories of folks we've met here. Let's not tarnish those memories - eh?

This place has been a great playground for me. I've met a lot of pretty cool folks here. Don't bow out. Just say what you wanna say and let others do the same. If you think someone says something that crosses the line then bring it to a moderator. Otherwise - let them say what they wanna say. Trust me - nothing in this forum or thread is gonna change healthcare or politics or anything else that's going on in the world.

This is a great playground. Come on - let's go play.


_____________________________


DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 2883
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 4:10:07 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 22633
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From: Southern California
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The hospital where I will make rounds tomorrow is mandating N-95 masks for ALL nurses on every floor for the entire shift. That is a BIG change

This is because the 6 ft rule appears to be insufficiently protective and the awareness of subclinical cases grows

(in reply to durnedwolf)
Post #: 2884
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 6:50:51 AM   
Encircled


Posts: 1932
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline
I think if you are used to the NHS, the American system seems very weird.

But its telling that both our countries probably underestimated this for political reasons, and now we are paying the price.

_____________________________


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Post #: 2885
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 7:06:04 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4152
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
Paying the rice.

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 2886
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 7:36:00 AM   
Kursk1943


Posts: 362
Joined: 3/15/2014
From: Bavaria in Southern Germany
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Gentlemen, even if I'll be banned for this comment:
This is the most entertaining thread on this forum. I really enjoy reading it every morning with a good cup of coffee! Reminds me of the sunday afternoon meetings of my aunts chatting and quarreling all the time. Very entertaining!
Only sorry that it is about a very sad cause...

PS: First time ever I see even Cap Mandrake participate in any thread besides his AAR.

_____________________________

Serenity and humility and kindness and benevolence

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 2887
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 8:13:12 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
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I have to wonder what percentage of Americans who avoid health care do so as a result of the seemingly prohibitive cost and how many do so simply because they hate the experience.

I avoid doctors like the plague. I make some where around the national average in the way of income and have decent employer provided health insurance.

I still have to have a limb falling off before I will go to a hospital.

My experiences with health care providers has left such a sour taste in my mouth I actively avoid the experience.

For all the science and technology available to them they are still little better than snake oil shamans engaging in guess work.

I didn't get slapped by a nun, but I did get left with half a foot numb because the hack surgeon cut the nerve when sewing my ligament up. His flippant response that some 'incidental' nerve damage is yo be expected might have been something he should have told me up front. Then there was the kidney doctor who gave me a medication for nephrotic syndrome that gave me diabetes.

Some of us simply don't want anything to do with doctors unless we are actually dieing.

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 2888
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 8:23:47 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The hospital where I will make rounds tomorrow is mandating N-95 masks for ALL nurses on every floor for the entire shift. That is a BIG change

This is because the 6 ft rule appears to be insufficiently protective and the awareness of subclinical cases grows


What about eye and nose protection? If it's aerosol protection that's needed wouldn't it have to include the whole face? An N95 is for filtering small particles, not just blocking big coughs.

This is the part I don't understand. Some doctors, like the one working in NY I referenced, state unequivocally that hand cleaning fanaticism, absolute limitations on face touching and wearing a simple mask to enforce no face touching and protect others from oneself is enough.

Why now the N95? Is it to give a feeling of protection more than actual need, and what is the cost in terms of availability?

How many times can they be re-used? Can they be dis-infected?

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 2889
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 8:29:23 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4152
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
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That is why men die more then women from COVID-19.

Women faces are protected by tons of chemical make-up, glossy lipsticks, and honed eyelashes as thick as frontal armour on PzKpfw VI Tiger. For COVID, woman's face is as barren as Mars surface.

I guess most women who died from COVID-19 are those who use little to no make-up.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 4/2/2020 8:48:59 AM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2890
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 8:35:49 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I have to wonder what percentage of Americans who avoid health care do so as a result of the seemingly prohibitive cost and how many do so simply because they hate the experience.

I avoid doctors like the plague. I make some where around the national average in the way of income and have decent employer provided health insurance.

I still have to have a limb falling off before I will go to a hospital.

My experiences with health care providers has left such a sour taste in my mouth I actively avoid the experience.

For all the science and technology available to them they are still little better than snake oil shamans engaging in guess work.

I didn't get slapped by a nun, but I did get left with half a foot numb because the hack surgeon cut the nerve when sewing my ligament up. His flippant response that some 'incidental' nerve damage is yo be expected might have been something he should have told me up front. Then there was the kidney doctor who gave me a medication for nephrotic syndrome that gave me diabetes.

Some of us simply don't want anything to do with doctors unless we are actually dieing.


Wow. Not good. Sorry Hans, those experiences suck, big time. On the other hand, not having doctors is a problem too, as my wife and I know well having been raising a little girl and really needing the emergency room or the GP up to 5-6 times a year.

I was a non-insured American for about 16 years of my working life in the States. I did go to the doctor, but only rarely and only if I obviously had an infection that was debilitating (like a sinus infection) or if I physically broke something (torn ankle ligaments being the main issue while playing basketball).

I paid a LOT for those visits on my restaurant work salary while putting myself through college (For seven years in undergrad and three years in post-grad with several years between). I also knew a whole lot of other people who were in the same boat, and some had severe chronic or short term issues they didn't get treated effectively. When I did get a college tenure-track position with very good insurance it was quite a revelation, and I had to retrain my response to actually seek out care.

There are problems with all systems, and people don't get treated for so many reasons. I think for this problem, Covid, most of those are changing to other problems, like;

Availability of testing (both current infection and antibody testing)
Innovative treatment of symptoms (Like Remdesvir and other treatments being used regularly in South Korea and other places to reduce severity of symptoms)
Availability of critical care and ICU beds (with respirators)
Availabitity of PPE equipment

There are some others, too, so the health care model discussion should be sidelined not because it's not important at some point, but because it is not relevant right now to the situation on the ground.

< Message edited by obvert -- 4/2/2020 9:13:36 AM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 2891
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 8:47:57 AM   
JohnDillworth


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Joined: 3/19/2009
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quote:

The government is inefficient and cumbersome

Perhaps, but I don't see anybody else stepping up today. Folks seem pretty happy that me and my daughter (Veterans Administration)are putting on our PPE and putting ourselves in high risk areas to keep the world running. Not to mention my other daughter (pharmacy tech in a town with 800 cases). I personally played a major role in the construction in the largest 911 call taking and dispatch center in the world. And it is preforming magnificently although we are starting to run out of healthy folks to man it. Yes, I'm inefficient and cumbersome but if me and my coworkerks don't show up in NYC and other places this morning what do we have? I'm from the government. I'm here to help. There will be tens of thousands of 911 calls today and many of those calls are from people having the worst, and perhaps last, days of their lives. And someone, from the government, will show up to help. Not a lot of those folks are looking to shrink government to a size you could drown in a bathtub. I don’t see anyone from private industry showing up to take my place on the line today.

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 4/2/2020 10:03:19 AM >


_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 2892
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 8:53:20 AM   
Yaab


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Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
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And when government eats it is cucumbersome.

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Post #: 2893
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 9:01:03 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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This graph has changed today. I think a few mentioned the logarithmic y axis was confusing, and it's been changed to deaths per day rather than per week. A similar curve comparison overall it seems.

One interesting part of the Chinese numbers, even though we know they're not correct, is the length of the descending curve for deaths. From the high point at ~150/day the downward slope still has take about 12-14 days to get to 50/day, and around 22 days to get to 25/day.

Outside NY all US states other than WA (of those shown) trending along the lines of Lombardia and Madrid.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 4/2/2020 9:09:35 AM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2894
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 9:01:23 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
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My response to my personal health care experiences is obviously irrational, emotional and self limiting.

I don't expect that everyone has had similar experiences or that they would react as irrationally as I have.

It wasn't my intention to denigrate health care providers, only to offer an alternative explanation for why people may avoid seeking treatment when in need.

There is likely no 'one size fits all' answer.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 4/2/2020 9:02:42 AM >


_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 2895
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 9:10:14 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

My response to my personal health care experiences is obviously irrational, emotional and self limiting.

I don't expect that everyone has had similar experiences or that they would react as irrationally as I have.

It wasn't my intention to denigrate health care providers, only to offer an alternative explanation for why people may avoid seeking treatment when in need.

There is likely no 'one size fits all' answer.


Yep. I agree.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 2896
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 9:44:27 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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A new graphic. This does show the very slight indication of cases beginning in a number of locations early, in mid-January, before testing ramped up. With all that we know now about mild and asymptomatic cases these indications of the presence of the disease point to much more extensive transmission early.

I don't like this representation much though, as it only focuses on new cases by chunks, not absolute numbers, and doesn't indicate totals. Looks pretty, doesn't hold up to grognard standards of granularity.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 4/2/2020 9:46:39 AM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2897
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 10:23:04 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

Lokasenna







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 4/3/2020 12:06:46 AM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 2898
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 10:36:49 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2912
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Emphasis mine.


Look, amigo, your post has no verb. Secondly, other than hydration and fever control, there is no proven effective outpatient treatment for Covid-19.

Water is essentially free, acetaminophen is about $2.50 for 500 tabs. If Remdesisvir or even chloroquine helps that would be a different matter. In that case it is a clear public health benefit.

This is an interesting discussion because of the international input but if you want to get in your snarky pseudo-professorial anti-American digs do it somewhere else because you will get the thread locked.



It is quite clear that outpatient treatment wasn't the primary concern with this discussion, but good attempt to evade the point raised.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

I think that this policy is even being considered, let alone implemented is sufficient evidence to rest my case.


Better yet, rest your mouth for a while.


Again, excellent work addressing the point at hand


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hey, Sammy, I understand the point he's making but it's wrong. Any American who shows up at an emergency room will be treated. Basically every American knows that (there are minimal exceptions). While some people may be reluctant to see care for some reasons, including economic, the fear from this pandemic is almost sure to overcome that. There will be very few Americans who aren't treated for Covid-19.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What you wanna bet that there won't be 25% of Americans not receiving treatment for Covid-19? I bet 98% will. The other 2% (or whatever it happens to be) will likely be those who expire before they realized the severity or otherwise didn't seek medical attention. Everybody else, rich or poor, black and white and brown and red and yellow, conservative and progressive, athiest or religious, will receive medical care.


I think the problem is that it is very difficult to prove either way.

If you follow mind_messings viewpoint then potentially many of the most impoverished Americans will die of COV-19 at home having never accessed healthcare in the first place and potentially never being tested post-mortem. That supposition is impossible to prove either way at this point although I guess in the fullness of time looking at 'excess mortality' statistics might give an insight.

As before I'm not taking sides - just pointing out that the two of you will get nowhere with arguing about that point in particular and most likely with your dispute in general.




Mate I think you are both right to block each other as it seems from an outsider's perspective that you both have 'history' that is making what is already a very thorny topic impossible to negotiate.

I'll ask just one question - not rhetorical as I genuinely don't know the answer. If somebody spends 14 days in hospital (with say 4 days in critical care) in the US, how much is their bill likely to be at the end of it if they don't have health insurance?


It would cost nothing if they were poor enough. I know someone who spent seventeen days in the hospital, including several days in isolation but no ICU. At first, a RN, a LPN, and an aide. Then just a RN and an aide for care. Then, 16.5+ months in a nursing home with therapy. Then, 14 months in assisted living. The first 2 days in the hospital were covered by an organization that I won't name here. The only thing paid by that individual was the room and board part of the assisted living. This also covered some surgeries as well. No or little payments for drugs either.


Anecdote, the strongest of evidence.

Let me respond to anecdotal evidence with empirical.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK121966/

Granted, ten years ago, so cost may have shifted, but average cost was around the $12,000 mark.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hey, Sammy, I understand the point he's making but it's wrong. Any American who shows up at an emergency room will be treated. Basically every American knows that (there are minimal exceptions). While some people may be reluctant to see care for some reasons, including economic, the fear from this pandemic is almost sure to overcome that. There will be very few Americans who aren't treated for Covid-19.



This is unequivocally a true statement. They show up in the ED with fever and cough they go to the sick "tent". They don't even go to intake. They need to be admitted, they get admitted. The hospitalist doctor takes over and almost never even pays attention to insurance until the time of discharge. They need the ICU they get the ICU. They need a vent, they get a vent. They need ECMO...which they pretty much can't get in most of the world...they get it. Illegal aliens...don't matter..they just have to show up and be sick enough

"American exceptionalism" is used here as an intentional insult. We can all see right through it.


Well, it seems the uninsured Americans are quite concerned.

"...44% of Americans declined to see a doctor due to cost, and why nearly a third of Americans polled said they didn’t get their prescriptions filled due to the high cost of their medicine."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/28/coronavirus-millions-of-americans-uninsured


That article is over a month old. Some of what is in there is true but more is a bunch of garbage in my opinion. I won't write any more because of the overtones.


That was a good start at a critique, but you fell down right in the middle part. For to do better next time, try to make explicit what you think is true and what isn't, and then we can move on to the nuance.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Olorin, the article is written with a strong agenda supporting universal healthcare provided for by the government. Possibly most of the world is in favor of that today. I'm not and I'm pretty sure most of the people I know aren't.

I am an uninsured American.** I've been to the doctor once since 2006. I paid the $180 bill out of my own pocket because I'm self-employed and nobody provides insurance. It's not the government's responsibility to do so and I don't want it too. The government is inefficient and cumbersome. I can and should handle my own business. If I die because of my choices and economic situation that's on me. Not on the government or my employer or anyone else.

**My family has been part of a health sharing ministry for seven years but thus far we haven't used it.


The bolded section has interesting ramifications. Are you opposed to utilitarianism in the instance of healthcare?

quote:

Here's a quote from that article: "Yes, countries with single-payer systems still have coronavirus cases, Italy and Japan. But the spread of the virus in those countries would likely pale in comparison to the potential spread of coronavirus in the US, in which a significant portion of the population simply won’t go to the doctor if they’re sick. Coronavirus is a worldwide public health emergency, and massive profits for health insurers and pharmaceutical manufacturers shouldn’t come before the basic health and safety of human beings."

A forumite who is a US doctor has already said this isn't true, confirming what others have said that any American that needs Covid-19 medical attention will receive it, whether they pay or not.




Again, anecdotal evidence

quote:

I can understand why the author might tout Japan, but Italy? Of course, with hindsight we know that unfortunately Italy got clobbered.


Please consult previously referenced WHO document where Italy was an overall high performer in terms of healthcare performance.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

As an example of affordability: A healthcare facility will charge the insurance company $4,000 for something like a CT scan. But the same scan billed to medicaid or medicare will be $2400-$2600. If a person offers to pay that day, the charge may be only $400. Now if a person has a 20% copay, think of how much that person pays if they have insurance. $800 is what they would pay besides any payments for the insurance. I have been to a government healthcare system many times. Worse care than the private sector in many cases with longer wait times.

Please, let us get back to the coronavirus and not bicker about the type of healthcare any more nor post inflammatory links.


Anecdotal evideeence

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

Canoerebel, for most of the world, universal healthcare is a given, accepted by both ends of the political system. OK, I understand it's a difficult subject for American politics, even though I don't undestand why.

Regarding, your personal situation, I think you are fortunate that you can afford the costs involved in your healthcare system. What about those who can't? The article I provided had some numbers in it.
44% of Americans declined to see a doctor due to cost. This is a very large portion of the population.

Inefficient public healthcare that can give all people what they need is preferable in my book to efficient private healthcare that excludes almost half the country. I'm just saying that financial efficiency is not the end goal of hospitals, it's curing people.


Olorin, you can't say that here! That would be political, and that would be baaaaad!

/s



quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Loka, you and others haven't batted an eye at the most overtly offensive political commentary in here. I could give examples but won't, mainly because I'll be calling out people who spoke in the heat of the moment but who are well-regarded members of this community.

As for MindMessing, if you read through this thread in total, you'll see the repeated snarky nature of his comments, my repeated requests that he take it private or elsewhere, and his refusal to do so. There have been private asides between him and me, and there has been past history, in which he repeats his behavior ad nauseum. I disagree with him on many things - as I do with others - but his behavior has been beyond anything I've encountered before on a Matrix site, by far.

I have him blocked now, so hopefully we can coexist peacefully. But if my presence and attempts to avoid the political mayhem in here (that allegedly wouldn't transpire) fail, I'll bow out of the thread I started.



Mainly because that would likely require actually engaging with what had been written, and we can't have that, can we?

Side note, I find Canoerebel playing the role of the aggrieved party highly amusing. I make no pretensions of innocence at all, but someone give that man an Oscar.


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I have to wonder what percentage of Americans who avoid health care do so as a result of the seemingly prohibitive cost and how many do so simply because they hate the experience.



As cited previously, about 1 in 4 avoid due to concerns of cost.

quote:

Some of us simply don't want anything to do with doctors unless we are actually dieing.


Which was precisely the point I was trying to raise, to the abject horror of some...

And also really bad from a population health perspective - makes preventative medicine a pipedream.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Lokasenna

No, the likely scenario is that they would prolong seeking life-saving treatment at a disproportionate rate (due to financial concerns, in turn due to misinformation) and therefore a disproportionate number of them will die. Same thing that happens with any other health problem that they don't seek treatment for when it first comes up.

Way back in this thread there was an anecdote posted by someone who "knew someone" who spent several weeks in the hospital and, because their income was low enough, they didn't have to pay much/anything. That's great for that person, but it's just one anecdotal data point and completely ignores the stark reality that large numbers of Americans routinely go without adequate medical care for financial reasons only. Beginning with states that have not expanded Medicaid, costing them 14K lives per year.


I am that person who posted that. I know that person - I see him every time that I look in a mirror. Here is one problem that I had. The picture is graphic.



Looks nasty.

Still anecdotal.

All the savvy statistics swots should know: One example is bad statistics...

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 2899
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 10:43:31 AM   
Canoerebel


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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Come on, John. I was referring to government handling of health care being cumbersome and inefficient. I didn't mean emergency services or the military or other things that the government can do and must do.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

The government is inefficient and cumbersome

Perhaps, but I don't see anybody else stepping up today. Folks seem pretty happy that me and my daughter (Veterans Administration)are putting on our PPE and putting ourselves in high risk areas to keep the world running. Not to mention my other daughter (pharmacy tech in a town with 800 cases). I personally played a major role in the construction in the largest 911 call taking and dispatch center in the world. And it is preforming magnificently although we are starting to run out of healthy folks to man it. Yes, I'm inefficient and cumbersome but if me and my coworkerks don't show up in NYC and other places this morning what do we have? I'm from the government. I'm here to help. There will be tens of thousands of 911 calls today and many of those calls are from people having the worst, and perhaps last, days of their lives. And someone, from the government, will show up to help. Not a lot of those folks are looking to shrink government to a size you could drown in a bathtub. I don’t see anyone from private industry showing up to take my place on the line today.


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 2900
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 10:45:55 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2912
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Come on, John. I was referring to government handling of health care being cumbersome and inefficient. I didn't mean emergency services or the military or other things that the government can do and must do.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

The government is inefficient and cumbersome

Perhaps, but I don't see anybody else stepping up today. Folks seem pretty happy that me and my daughter (Veterans Administration)are putting on our PPE and putting ourselves in high risk areas to keep the world running. Not to mention my other daughter (pharmacy tech in a town with 800 cases). I personally played a major role in the construction in the largest 911 call taking and dispatch center in the world. And it is preforming magnificently although we are starting to run out of healthy folks to man it. Yes, I'm inefficient and cumbersome but if me and my coworkerks don't show up in NYC and other places this morning what do we have? I'm from the government. I'm here to help. There will be tens of thousands of 911 calls today and many of those calls are from people having the worst, and perhaps last, days of their lives. And someone, from the government, will show up to help. Not a lot of those folks are looking to shrink government to a size you could drown in a bathtub. I don’t see anyone from private industry showing up to take my place on the line today.




"Government is inefficient and cumbersome, except when it's not"


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 2901
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 11:06:36 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8209
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
quote:

mind_messing

Anecdote, the strongest of evidence.
.
.
.
Looks nasty.

Still anecdotal.

All the savvy statistics swots should know: One example is bad statistics...


I am going to block you since you are an a$$ on just about every thing that you have posted here.

I think that I will start a Scotch joke thread. Maybe one about men who wear skirts . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 2902
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 11:12:52 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2912
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

mind_messing

Anecdote, the strongest of evidence.
.
.
.
Looks nasty.

Still anecdotal.

All the savvy statistics swots should know: One example is bad statistics...


I am going to block you since you are an a$$ on just about every thing that you have posted here.

I think that I will start a Scotch joke thread. Maybe one about men who wear skirts . . .


Please, feel free on both accounts. I've a great sense of humour

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 2903
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 11:20:05 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

mind_messing

Anecdote, the strongest of evidence.
.
.
.
Looks nasty.

Still anecdotal.

All the savvy statistics swots should know: One example is bad statistics...


I am going to block you since you are an a$$ on just about every thing that you have posted here.

I think that I will start a Scotch joke thread. Maybe one about men who wear skirts . . .


Please, feel free on both accounts. I've a great sense of humour


And none of propriety.

Done with your flippant offensiveness.

Green button.


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 2904
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 11:32:05 AM   
Kursk1943


Posts: 362
Joined: 3/15/2014
From: Bavaria in Southern Germany
Status: offline
...and I thought the previous 96 pages couldn't be topped!

_____________________________

Serenity and humility and kindness and benevolence

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 2905
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 11:35:24 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8209
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Come on, John. I was referring to government handling of health care being cumbersome and inefficient. I didn't mean emergency services or the military or other things that the government can do and must do.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

The government is inefficient and cumbersome

Perhaps, but I don't see anybody else stepping up today. Folks seem pretty happy that me and my daughter (Veterans Administration)are putting on our PPE and putting ourselves in high risk areas to keep the world running. Not to mention my other daughter (pharmacy tech in a town with 800 cases). I personally played a major role in the construction in the largest 911 call taking and dispatch center in the world. And it is preforming magnificently although we are starting to run out of healthy folks to man it. Yes, I'm inefficient and cumbersome but if me and my coworkerks don't show up in NYC and other places this morning what do we have? I'm from the government. I'm here to help. There will be tens of thousands of 911 calls today and many of those calls are from people having the worst, and perhaps last, days of their lives. And someone, from the government, will show up to help. Not a lot of those folks are looking to shrink government to a size you could drown in a bathtub. I don’t see anyone from private industry showing up to take my place on the line today.




The problem is not so much with people like John or his daughter, they are on the front lines. The problem, at least to me, is the people in the beauacracy or the people in the administration who like to show their power by blocking things. They do not seem to understand the "mission first, all other things second" philosophy. They try to protect their turf, so to speak. Someone of them will manipulate the system for their own personal gain.

This CoViD-19 situation is more important than the just what the death rate shows. The average person needs to know quality information to protect themselves and their families. I almost put loved ones but that may not necessarily include their families. When people like John and his daughter, Cap Mandrake are working they see the trees and not the forest. They need to concentrate on the trees, I would like to know more about the forest. This way I do the most to protect myself and in my new living environment, inform others who may not be online or are otherwise too busy to get the information.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 2906
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 11:36:01 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21096
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
In reply to Kursk: Yeah, remember those claims yesterday that politics was fine for discussion in here?

(in reply to Kursk1943)
Post #: 2907
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 11:38:57 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21096
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
In reply to Ranger: Funny, your post was made while I was typing a PM to JohnD along the same lines. The heart of that message (leaving out my personal well wishes to him):

Given the long national discussion over health care and the role of government therein, I think you know that my comment was specifically in reference to that. While about half of Americans feel the way I do, the other half don't. But we know how the other side feels, so that we can discuss it in places like this without making a lot of qualifying statements. I didn't think it was necessary to qualify my statement but in hindsight I should have.

I think you know that I wasn't referring to emergency services, the military, and many other things the government can and must do and can only do. And I hope you know that all Americans support the national, state and emergency services of every kind. We're in this together and for now the debate isn't even over the role of government in health care. Until the virus is beat, we're all pulling for the folks fighting it.



(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 2908
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 11:40:55 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2912
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Come on, John. I was referring to government handling of health care being cumbersome and inefficient. I didn't mean emergency services or the military or other things that the government can do and must do.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

The government is inefficient and cumbersome

Perhaps, but I don't see anybody else stepping up today. Folks seem pretty happy that me and my daughter (Veterans Administration)are putting on our PPE and putting ourselves in high risk areas to keep the world running. Not to mention my other daughter (pharmacy tech in a town with 800 cases). I personally played a major role in the construction in the largest 911 call taking and dispatch center in the world. And it is preforming magnificently although we are starting to run out of healthy folks to man it. Yes, I'm inefficient and cumbersome but if me and my coworkerks don't show up in NYC and other places this morning what do we have? I'm from the government. I'm here to help. There will be tens of thousands of 911 calls today and many of those calls are from people having the worst, and perhaps last, days of their lives. And someone, from the government, will show up to help. Not a lot of those folks are looking to shrink government to a size you could drown in a bathtub. I don’t see anyone from private industry showing up to take my place on the line today.




The problem is not so much with people like John or his daughter, they are on the front lines. The problem, at least to me, is the people in the beauacracy or the people in the administration who like to show their power by blocking things. They do not seem to understand the "mission first, all other things second" philosophy. They try to protect their turf, so to speak. Someone of them will manipulate the system for their own personal gain.

This CoViD-19 situation is more important than the just what the death rate shows. The average person needs to know quality information to protect themselves and their families. I almost put loved ones but that may not necessarily include their families. When people like John and his daughter, Cap Mandrake are working they see the trees and not the forest. They need to concentrate on the trees, I would like to know more about the forest. This way I do the most to protect myself and in my new living environment, inform others who may not be online or are otherwise too busy to get the information.



(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 2909
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/2/2020 11:41:49 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
I'll just repost things that slip due to disagreements.

This graph has changed today. I think a few mentioned the logarithmic y axis was confusing, and it's been changed to deaths per day rather than per week. A similar curve comparison overall it seems.

One interesting part of the Chinese numbers, even though we know they're not correct, is the length of the descending curve for deaths. From the high point at ~150/day the downward slope still has take about 12-14 days to get to 50/day, and around 22 days to get to 25/day.

Outside NY all US states other than WA (of those shown) trending along the lines of Lombardia and Madrid.





_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 2910
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