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RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 9:45:32 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Have you ever tried to load a dishwasher with someone?


I assume you have to push really hard to get them to fit.


Okay, I take it back. Wasn't such a great question after all.

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 7321
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 10:25:39 PM   
Lowpe


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Joined: 2/25/2013
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US government turned down opportunity to manufacture millions of N95 masks at start of pandemic: report

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/496980-hhs-turned-down-opportunity-to-manufacture-millions-of-n95-masks-at


This story looks really bad. But a cursory search on my part raises two concerns. If the manufacturer's phones were ringing off the hook, why did they not re-open the mask line and sell them to other interested parties?

The other is scale. 3M make 1.1 billion masks a year, and has pledged to increase production by 30%. Honeywell is another company expanding their mask production.

This story is a perfect example of journalistic problems. I am sure the article gets kudos for accuracy, but it is only telling a tiny part of the story.

But the story makes HHS look bad for turning down the business proposal....in January.


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7322
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 10:48:08 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 22736
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
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Der Spiegel says the BND is reporting that Xi asked Tedros to cover up information on human to human transmission. Now, without the benefit of 20 ton satellites and a billion terabytes of servers I was able to figure this out almost 4 months ago. All you had to do was listen to the official statements of the WHO and read the social media from Taiwan and Hong Kong to see the obvious disconnect.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8304471/Chinas-president-Xi-Jinping-personally-requested-delay-COVID-19-pandemic-warning.html

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7323
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 10:54:45 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8464
Joined: 11/16/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

US government turned down opportunity to manufacture millions of N95 masks at start of pandemic: report

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/496980-hhs-turned-down-opportunity-to-manufacture-millions-of-n95-masks-at


This story looks really bad. But a cursory search on my part raises two concerns. If the manufacturer's phones were ringing off the hook, why did they not re-open the mask line and sell them to other interested parties?

The other is scale. 3M make 1.1 billion masks a year, and has pledged to increase production by 30%. Honeywell is another company expanding their mask production.

This story is a perfect example of journalistic problems. I am sure the article gets kudos for accuracy, but it is only telling a tiny part of the story.

But the story makes HHS look bad for turning down the business proposal....in January.


3M did increase production - last January:

3M CEO: ‘We’re going 24/7’ to ramp up production of masks to meet coronavirus demand
Published Tue, Jan 28 2020

quote:

“We are ramping to full production. We’re going 24/7,” Roman said. He added that the company is increasing production at its plants in China and other Asian countries, as well as in Europe in the United States.


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/28/3m-ramps-up-production-of-masks-to-meet-coronavirus-demand.html

and:

3M Increases Respirator Production to Meet Growing Demand

quote:

To fill the growing demand for the devices, particularly the N95 respirator, 3M is ramping up production, which means hosting job fairs, making offers on the spot and expanding its assembly line with robots.

In Aberdeen, South Dakota, more than 650 employees at one of 3M’s largest manufacturing facilities are working overtime to increase face mask production.

“We immediately ramped up production in this facility,” says Andy Rehder, plant manager at 3M. “We have capacity to do that and we did that immediately ... really from a more standard five-day to a seven-day week.”


https://www.assemblymag.com/articles/95512-m-increases-respirator-production-to-meet-growing-demand

and more things as well:

3M inks $126M deal with DoD to increase N95 mask production in October

quote:

Also on Wednesday, 3M announced Ford is shipping 10,000 powered air-purifying respirators, or PAPRs -- which the two companies collaborated to develop -- to protect healthcare workers fighting the COVID-19 pandemic.

According to 3M, since the COVID-19 outbreak began, the company has doubled its global output of filtering facepiece respirators, such as N95s, to more than 1.1 billion per year, or 100 million per month -- with 35 million N95s being produced in the United States.

The company said that 90 percent of N95s it currently produces go directly to health care workers.


https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2020/05/06/3M-inks-126M-deal-with-DoD-to-increase-N95-mask-production-in-October/7961588795870/

I read earlier that the plant in South Dakota had equipment in storage. In the middle of January (around the 17th?) the plant received a call about something going around in China and to increase production of the masks. The stored equipment was put online, the plant went from 5 days a week production to 7 days a week production, more people were hired, and people worked overtime. I believe that I had posted that somewhere in this thread. If someone wants to, they can look for it.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7324
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 10:55:20 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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From: Southern California
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This is not negligence. This is willful fraud. When we get done the CCP they need to be picking the corn out of their own s*** for 20 years.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 7325
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 10:57:43 PM   
Lowpe


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This is an interesting website.

Help Collect Real-World Evidence to Evaluate COVID-19 Treatments.

https://www.acresglobal.net/covid-19/

I am not qualified to say that this is accurate, but reading the risk factors, clinical presentation, symptoms, testing methods was fascinating.

My heart goes out to all doctors and nurses for the amount of paperwork they have to fill out. I am always struck by how much of the time my doctors are on the computer (or their assistants).

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 7326
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 10:59:37 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 799
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Damn am I glad I took a few steps back for a while.

Watching you all take pot shots at each other is actually rather entertaining.

Well, time to wade back in.

A quick thrust at all you Eurosocialists damning the US for not implementing nation wide orders.....

So ALL of the European continent implemented the same imperial edict orders and followed them?

Many of our states are three times the size of many of your nations...........yet is is OK for your individual nations to go their own ways....but not for our states?

My what hypocrites you all are.


How is your in-depth research about Bill Gates' children going?

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 7327
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 11:01:33 PM   
Lowpe


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Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

This is not negligence. This is willful fraud. When we get done the CCP they need to be picking the corn out of their own s*** for 20 years.


There is a bill up in congress to rename the street the Chinese Embassy is on after one of the missing Chinese Covid Doctors now presumed dead.



(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 7328
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 11:06:53 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 22736
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From: Southern California
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Gov. Newsome (Calif.) steps in it and accuses nail salons of spreading COVID. Perhaps he did the math. He probably doesn't get many votes from the Vietnamese.

https://www.breitbart.com/

"Ahhhhhh you like-ah COVID with ceramic? Only 5 dollah more!"



< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 5/10/2020 11:07:19 PM >

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7329
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 11:16:16 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 22736
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

This is not negligence. This is willful fraud. When we get done the CCP they need to be picking the corn out of their own s*** for 20 years.


There is a bill up in congress to rename the street the Chinese Embassy is on after one of the missing Chinese Covid Doctors now presumed dead.





Dr Li. A heroic figure on par with "Tankman" at Tienanmen. Look how young he is. I am VERY suspicious they PRC off'ed the Dr Li.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51364382


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7330
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 11:18:52 PM   
Lowpe


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This can’t go on. California has to figure a way out

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/williesworld/article/This-can-t-go-on-California-has-to-figure-a-15258034.php

Willie Brown's column, previous Mayor of San Fran.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 7331
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 11:22:48 PM   
Lowpe


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Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

This is not negligence. This is willful fraud. When we get done the CCP they need to be picking the corn out of their own s*** for 20 years.


There is a bill up in congress to rename the street the Chinese Embassy is on after one of the missing Chinese Covid Doctors now presumed dead.





Dr Li. A heroic figure on par with "Tankman" at Tienanmen. Look how young he is. I am VERY suspicious they PRC off'ed the Dr Li.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51364382




Then there are the three Russian Doctors that happened to fall out of hospital windows recently, after being critical.

Tankman: The Tank Man has been identified as 19-year-old archaeology student Wang Weilin, but his fate remains unknown. General secretary Jiang Zemin denied any knowledge of his arrest but insisted he would not have been run over or subsequently executed. Some believe he escaped to Taiwan.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 7332
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/10/2020 11:46:07 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 22736
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Have you ever tried to load a dishwasher with someone?


I assume you have to push really hard to get them to fit.


Okay, I take it back. Wasn't such a great question after all.





(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7333
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 12:20:25 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

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Joined: 8/4/2014
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Just thinking about the public health vs public freedom angle.

The NHS estimates smoking-related deaths at 78,000pa in the UK. Cancer Research UK have it at 115,000pa.

If you assume a 20% 'hardcore' who would continue smoking whatever the legal status you could suggest that we could save 60-90 thousand deaths a year by banning smoking.

The tax take from smoking products is c.£10 billion - a seemingly massive number in isolation but only c.1-2% of the overall UK tax revenue. Certainly less than what has been spent so far in the economic measures introduced to mitigate against the effects of lockdown.

I don't think it is a massive leap to suggest that in the UK we already accept a level of premature deaths equivalent to what we are seeing from Covid-19 in the name of public freedom to smoke.

[edit - the counterpoint would be that the people dying in the UK from smoking related diseases are to a large extent those that were smoking heavily through the 70s/80s and never stopped. Anecdotally my dad was smoking 20-30 a day in the office in the late 70s/early 80s. The world is very different now - I'd expect the current rates of smoking related deaths to drop significantly in the next 20 years - at least in the West]

< Message edited by Sammy5IsAlive -- 5/11/2020 12:38:43 AM >

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 7334
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 12:43:25 AM   
RangerJoe


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Joined: 11/16/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

Just thinking about the public health vs public freedom angle.

The NHS estimates smoking-related deaths at 78,000pa in the UK. Cancer Research UK have it at 115,000pa.

If you assume a 20% 'hardcore' who would continue smoking whatever the legal status you could suggest that we could save 60-90 thousand deaths a year by banning smoking.

The tax take from smoking products is c.£10 billion - a seemingly massive number in isolation but only c.1-2% of the overall UK tax revenue. Certainly less than what has been spent so far in the economic measures introduced to mitigate against the effects of lockdown.

I don't think it is a massive leap to suggest that in the UK we already accept a level of premature deaths equivalent to what we are seeing from Covid-19 in the name of public freedom to smoke.

[edit - the counterpoint would be that the people dying in the UK from smoking related diseases are to a large extent those that were smoking heavily through the 70s/80s and never stopped. Anecdotally my dad was smoking 20-30 a day in the office in the late 70s/early 80s. The world is very different now - I'd expect the current rates of smoking related deaths to drop significantly in the next 20 years - at least in the West]


I told an RN in an assisted living facility that I was thinking about taking up smoking. She asked why would I do that? I replied that if I caught enough fish that I would smoke them.

Using tobacco products is a personal choice, it is currently legal to do so. Catching Sars-CoV is not so much a personal choice.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 7335
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 1:01:24 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15633
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

Just thinking about the public health vs public freedom angle.

The NHS estimates smoking-related deaths at 78,000pa in the UK. Cancer Research UK have it at 115,000pa.

If you assume a 20% 'hardcore' who would continue smoking whatever the legal status you could suggest that we could save 60-90 thousand deaths a year by banning smoking.

The tax take from smoking products is c.£10 billion - a seemingly massive number in isolation but only c.1-2% of the overall UK tax revenue. Certainly less than what has been spent so far in the economic measures introduced to mitigate against the effects of lockdown.

I don't think it is a massive leap to suggest that in the UK we already accept a level of premature deaths equivalent to what we are seeing from Covid-19 in the name of public freedom to smoke.

[edit - the counterpoint would be that the people dying in the UK from smoking related diseases are to a large extent those that were smoking heavily through the 70s/80s and never stopped. Anecdotally my dad was smoking 20-30 a day in the office in the late 70s/early 80s. The world is very different now - I'd expect the current rates of smoking related deaths to drop significantly in the next 20 years - at least in the West]

My dad and mom were heavy smokers and I blame it as one of the factors for my mom dying at 62 from a heart attack (she was very slim, so obesity was not a factor). My dad had a minor heart attack and quit smoking soon after, living another thirty years.

In Britain and Canada, the calculations about tobacco tax revenue vs health costs borne by the taxpayers in general shows that it would be better to ban smoking, but social customs are not easily banned so they were eased out by making it more difficult to smoke everywhere. For the same reasons, drinking alcohol leads to more total health costs than the revenues from taxes, but social customs and restaurant/bar survival depend on alcohol so it is partly controlled rather than banned. Vaping was invented to get around the smoking restrictions but the chemicals being used have been proven to cause lung damage too.

As with many things, moderate alcohol use is largely beneficial to our overall well being (including social relationships in that), but binging and addictive drinking are a problem. I see no benefits from smoking or vaping, except to support a habit of putting something in our mouths.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 7336
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 1:02:48 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/4/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


Using tobacco products is a personal choice, it is currently legal to do so. Catching Sars-CoV is not so much a personal choice.


I'm not talking about a personal level but at a national level. Personal choices re. smoking could be significantly affected by national policy. I'm a smoker but would stop if it was illegal.

In terms of Covid-19 - on a personal level everybody could significantly reduce their chances of being infected by staying at home and avoiding all contact from the outside world. On a national level if everybody does that the economy collapses.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7337
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 1:19:59 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/4/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy



My dad and mom were heavy smokers and I blame it as one of the factors for my mom dying at 62 from a heart attack (she was very slim, so obesity was not a factor). My dad had a minor heart attack and quit smoking soon after, living another thirty years.

In Britain and Canada, the calculations about tobacco tax revenue vs health costs borne by the taxpayers in general shows that it would be better to ban smoking, but social customs are not easily banned so they were eased out by making it more difficult to smoke everywhere. For the same reasons, drinking alcohol leads to more total health costs than the revenues from taxes, but social customs and restaurant/bar survival depend on alcohol so it is partly controlled rather than banned. Vaping was invented to get around the smoking restrictions but the chemicals being used have been proven to cause lung damage too.

As with many things, moderate alcohol use is largely beneficial to our overall well being (including social relationships in that), but binging and addictive drinking are a problem. I see no benefits from smoking or vaping, except to support a habit of putting something in our mouths.


I think that nicotine addiction is slightly more interesting psychologically than the bit in bold. My own view is that people who smoke nowadays (myself included) are people that find it difficult to regulate their emotions/mental health. Smoking gives that feeling (albeit perhaps an illusion) of having a means of control. Despite all the public health measures introduced in the UK smoking rates remain sky-high amongst people with severe mental health conditions like Schizophrenia/BPAD etc.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 7338
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 1:34:58 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20001
Joined: 2/25/2013
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Take the Shutdown Skeptics Seriously

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/take-shutdown-skeptics-seriously/611419/


(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 7339
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 1:37:50 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20001
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Bay Area cities face grim financial outlook amid budget slashing. Here’s what they are planning to cut

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Bay-Area-cities-face-grim-financial-outlook-amid-15259394.php

Grim reading here. Very grim. Tough, tough choices ahead.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/11/2020 1:38:22 AM >

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7340
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 2:01:37 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15633
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy



My dad and mom were heavy smokers and I blame it as one of the factors for my mom dying at 62 from a heart attack (she was very slim, so obesity was not a factor). My dad had a minor heart attack and quit smoking soon after, living another thirty years.

In Britain and Canada, the calculations about tobacco tax revenue vs health costs borne by the taxpayers in general shows that it would be better to ban smoking, but social customs are not easily banned so they were eased out by making it more difficult to smoke everywhere. For the same reasons, drinking alcohol leads to more total health costs than the revenues from taxes, but social customs and restaurant/bar survival depend on alcohol so it is partly controlled rather than banned. Vaping was invented to get around the smoking restrictions but the chemicals being used have been proven to cause lung damage too.

As with many things, moderate alcohol use is largely beneficial to our overall well being (including social relationships in that), but binging and addictive drinking are a problem. I see no benefits from smoking or vaping, except to support a habit of putting something in our mouths.


I think that nicotine addiction is slightly more interesting psychologically than the bit in bold. My own view is that people who smoke nowadays (myself included) are people that find it difficult to regulate their emotions/mental health. Smoking gives that feeling (albeit perhaps an illusion) of having a means of control. Despite all the public health measures introduced in the UK smoking rates remain sky-high amongst people with severe mental health conditions like Schizophrenia/BPAD etc.

That fits with the OCD pattern of taking out the cigarette/vaping device, positioning it, lighting it and periodically moving it away from the lips and into them. A calming pattern? A kind of meditation by motion?

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 7341
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 2:18:56 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 25047
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


I think there is some strong evidence in Trump's past behaviour, particularly with regard to James Comey and the winder context of Trump's request for loyalty.

It suggests than official has to strike the balance between loyalty (in whatever form that is) to Trump and the demands of the role. It would be interesting to know how those considerations are balanced.

Unusual is certainly a diplomatic way of framing it.

Most recent (and apparently ongoing) revelations have completely undone Comey's facade. Based on hard evidence, it turns out Trump was right about him. I'm not going to get off into that tangent, but you can read up on the documents released recently with apparently more still being released.

_____________________________


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Post #: 7342
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 2:33:37 AM   
CaptBeefheart


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From: Seoul, Korea
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Some of you may remember we had news of a new outbreak in Seoul last Friday. That's an interesting case since the government is having trouble tracking down everyone thought to have been exposed. So far, 75 new cases have been attributed to one gentleman visiting three gay nightclubs in Itaewon in the wee hours of May 1 (Itaewon used to be the ville for the U.S. Army, now very few GIs are stationed in Seoul). This has contributed to somewhat of a backlash against gays here, at least online (I haven't heard of any offline incidents), although to me the more interesting thing is to be allowed to reopen, all nightclubs were required to get the names and phone numbers of all customers upon entry, and the government found that over half the phone numbers from those three clubs were bogus.

So far they've tested fewer than half the people with potential exposure. Since there can be a stigma for being gay, it's understandable people would not provide their info when it could be seen by The Man (the original carrier said he was not gay, but just curious). Here's a story on it: PM warns of strong steps against club visitors over non-cooperation in virus testing

One of the things they've been touting here is the ability to contact trace everyone within ten minutes by means of phone location, CCTV footage and credit card transactions. So my big question is: Why are they so reliant on the guest books? Just figure out everyone who used a credit card at the clubs and whose phone spent some time in the vicinity.

I'm going to try to sic one of my journo buddies on that one. Maybe the Prime Minister will host a presser for the foreign scribblers this week.

Cheers,
CB

< Message edited by CaptBeefheart -- 5/11/2020 2:38:01 AM >


_____________________________

Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 7343
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 2:50:02 AM   
Cap Mandrake


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From: Southern California
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3 clubs in a few hours? That is pretty damned curious.

They should start with that boy band. Find out where they were.

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 7344
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 3:28:40 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2145
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From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline
Heh. He spent about 40 minutes in each club and they are not far apart (this isn't LA). The funny thing is, the most famous club on the list, The King Club, was a hangout of mine when I first arrived in this country in the early 90s. Let's just say it featured a target-rich environment. It was also not boring. One of the bouncers (who was not big, but had a reputation as being a martial arts god) once saw a group of SEALs doing something objectionable and he made the mistake of trying to do something about it. Next thing you know he was thrown horizontally like Superman over the bar. Imagine my surprise last week when I found out it had started catering to a wholly different clientele about two years ago.

Cheers,
CB

_____________________________

Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 7345
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 8:08:21 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Take the Shutdown Skeptics Seriously

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/take-shutdown-skeptics-seriously/611419/




That is the kind of balanced view I would hope for in the dialogue. Issues with both. Make sure to understand costs of staying closed.

It didn’t have much evidence for some claims unfortunately. Being in education I can state clearly that what is not usually considered is that kids are still learning. On top of that they’re learning, perhaps for the first time in their lives, the true value of school, education, social connectiveness and the decreased value of video games and social media.

I know this from direct experience. They’re desperate to get back in. Learn. Be in a classroom. See their friends. Get off of their laptops.

All the while though teachers are teaching. Students are also learning that there are some important decisions going on in cultures that directly affect their lives. Difficulty and awareness of others in a society are not always bad for them. They’re also all noticing nature. The change of seasons a nd the value of family time and exercise.

If they miss a few dates, don’t get to study as many equations, need to refresh themselves next year on the periodic table. I think that’s okay. As long as this doesn’t go on for many many months, it could be a defining moment for many to value their lives, family, friends and education more than before.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7346
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 8:34:48 AM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


I think there is some strong evidence in Trump's past behaviour, particularly with regard to James Comey and the winder context of Trump's request for loyalty.

It suggests than official has to strike the balance between loyalty (in whatever form that is) to Trump and the demands of the role. It would be interesting to know how those considerations are balanced.

Unusual is certainly a diplomatic way of framing it.

Most recent (and apparently ongoing) revelations have completely undone Comey's facade. Based on hard evidence, it turns out Trump was right about him. I'm not going to get off into that tangent, but you can read up on the documents released recently with apparently more still being released.


Care to share links?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

Just thinking about the public health vs public freedom angle.

The NHS estimates smoking-related deaths at 78,000pa in the UK. Cancer Research UK have it at 115,000pa.

If you assume a 20% 'hardcore' who would continue smoking whatever the legal status you could suggest that we could save 60-90 thousand deaths a year by banning smoking.

The tax take from smoking products is c.£10 billion - a seemingly massive number in isolation but only c.1-2% of the overall UK tax revenue. Certainly less than what has been spent so far in the economic measures introduced to mitigate against the effects of lockdown.

I don't think it is a massive leap to suggest that in the UK we already accept a level of premature deaths equivalent to what we are seeing from Covid-19 in the name of public freedom to smoke.

[edit - the counterpoint would be that the people dying in the UK from smoking related diseases are to a large extent those that were smoking heavily through the 70s/80s and never stopped. Anecdotally my dad was smoking 20-30 a day in the office in the late 70s/early 80s. The world is very different now - I'd expect the current rates of smoking related deaths to drop significantly in the next 20 years - at least in the West]


As an ex-smoker, an outright ban is quite heavy handed (but something I'd welcome for the health benefits).

Hike the taxes on tobacco and you just punish poorer people while those well off are more able to bear the added cost.

The legal restrictions around where you can smoke have been massively helpful in cutting the prevalence of smoking, but don't quite get at the key problem - people smoking large quantities at home (even worse when around children).

I think the trend of social engineering around smoking (for want of a better phrase) has been quite successful, but I think there's more work to be done when there is a much healthier way to address the physiological aspect of smoking (in the form of nicotine patches/gum).

As for the c. £10 billion, what is the cost of the 1.2 million people with COPD (of which smoking is the primary cause) on the NHS currently?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy



My dad and mom were heavy smokers and I blame it as one of the factors for my mom dying at 62 from a heart attack (she was very slim, so obesity was not a factor). My dad had a minor heart attack and quit smoking soon after, living another thirty years.

In Britain and Canada, the calculations about tobacco tax revenue vs health costs borne by the taxpayers in general shows that it would be better to ban smoking, but social customs are not easily banned so they were eased out by making it more difficult to smoke everywhere. For the same reasons, drinking alcohol leads to more total health costs than the revenues from taxes, but social customs and restaurant/bar survival depend on alcohol so it is partly controlled rather than banned. Vaping was invented to get around the smoking restrictions but the chemicals being used have been proven to cause lung damage too.

As with many things, moderate alcohol use is largely beneficial to our overall well being (including social relationships in that), but binging and addictive drinking are a problem. I see no benefits from smoking or vaping, except to support a habit of putting something in our mouths.


I think that nicotine addiction is slightly more interesting psychologically than the bit in bold. My own view is that people who smoke nowadays (myself included) are people that find it difficult to regulate their emotions/mental health. Smoking gives that feeling (albeit perhaps an illusion) of having a means of control. Despite all the public health measures introduced in the UK smoking rates remain sky-high amongst people with severe mental health conditions like Schizophrenia/BPAD etc.


Used to smoke, quit about 3/4 years ago. Don't think I fit here, I just enjoyed the alertness that smoking brought.

What you say about smoking in people with mental illness is true, however.


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 7347
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 10:09:13 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 868
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Take the Shutdown Skeptics Seriously

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/take-shutdown-skeptics-seriously/611419/




That is the kind of balanced view I would hope for in the dialogue. Issues with both. Make sure to understand costs of staying closed.

It didn’t have much evidence for some claims unfortunately. Being in education I can state clearly that what is not usually considered is that kids are still learning. On top of that they’re learning, perhaps for the first time in their lives, the true value of school, education, social connectiveness and the decreased value of video games and social media.

I know this from direct experience. They’re desperate to get back in. Learn. Be in a classroom. See their friends. Get off of their laptops.

All the while though teachers are teaching. Students are also learning that there are some important decisions going on in cultures that directly affect their lives. Difficulty and awareness of others in a society are not always bad for them. They’re also all noticing nature. The change of seasons a nd the value of family time and exercise.

If they miss a few dates, don’t get to study as many equations, need to refresh themselves next year on the periodic table. I think that’s okay. As long as this doesn’t go on for many many months, it could be a defining moment for many to value their lives, family, friends and education more than before.

I am very nervous from conversations I have had that some folks in education think that lots more laptop/remote learning can replace classroom time in the future. I already feel social and communication skills are slipping badly. Stick them on laptops more and they may never speak to another human. OK, a bit of hyperbole there, but I agree they need to be in a classroom.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7348
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 10:56:44 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Take the Shutdown Skeptics Seriously

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/take-shutdown-skeptics-seriously/611419/




That is the kind of balanced view I would hope for in the dialogue. Issues with both. Make sure to understand costs of staying closed.

It didn’t have much evidence for some claims unfortunately. Being in education I can state clearly that what is not usually considered is that kids are still learning. On top of that they’re learning, perhaps for the first time in their lives, the true value of school, education, social connectiveness and the decreased value of video games and social media.

I know this from direct experience. They’re desperate to get back in. Learn. Be in a classroom. See their friends. Get off of their laptops.

All the while though teachers are teaching. Students are also learning that there are some important decisions going on in cultures that directly affect their lives. Difficulty and awareness of others in a society are not always bad for them. They’re also all noticing nature. The change of seasons a nd the value of family time and exercise.

If they miss a few dates, don’t get to study as many equations, need to refresh themselves next year on the periodic table. I think that’s okay. As long as this doesn’t go on for many many months, it could be a defining moment for many to value their lives, family, friends and education more than before.

I am very nervous from conversations I have had that some folks in education think that lots more laptop/remote learning can replace classroom time in the future. I already feel social and communication skills are slipping badly. Stick them on laptops more and they may never speak to another human. OK, a bit of hyperbole there, but I agree they need to be in a classroom.


As far as I can tell this is helping them all to realize that less screen time is a good thing and they miss people.

Education won’t go the digital route. Collaboration and team skillls are so important for future work this won’t limit the focus on those things. Teachers don’t need to fear for their jobs

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 7349
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/11/2020 11:35:30 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20001
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Hey, M-M, would it shock you to know there was widespread bipartisan support for firing Comey, that is until he was actually fired.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-before-trump-fired-fbi-director-james-comey-democrats-wanted-his-dismissal-20170510-story.html

Hillary Clinton was actually ecstatic when he was fired. I recall her saying in interviews she would have fired Comey if elected.

https://www.businessinsider.com/hillary-clinton-ecstatic-trump-fired-comey-report-2019-5

The FBI is a hideously challenged organisation. The FBI labs, Whitey Bolger, Senator Stevens, and Congressman Weldon cases are a few that standout in recent memory and call in to question the legitimacy of other political office holders prosecutions like Fattah, Rostenkowski, etc.

The Obama IG, studied randomly 30 FISA applications for warrants and found serious problems with 27 or 29 of the 30. You can research it, I grow tired of doing work for you. This is basically a secret spying organisation. Heck the FBI agents lied to the court. Evidence strongly suggests they destroyed and withheld exculpatory evidence, altered documents, threatened spurious prosecutions, and crafted plea deals to hide their coercive acts to get the plea deal, and worse.

It is very troublesome what the FBI has gotten away with...Senator Schumer has said publicly you can't cross them because they have a million and one ways of getting back at you.

It is a shame they get such great propaganda in Hollywood. What they have done to both Political Parties and the American People is a crying shame.

You almost never ever should speak to an FBI agent without a lawyer present about anything. The lawyer will want to record the interview for accuracy, and the FBI refuse to be recorded.



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/11/2020 11:46:16 AM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7350
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