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RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 7:31:03 PM   
durnedwolf


Posts: 862
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.


I think both RangerJoe and witqs cold do to use some examples of how leaving it all to the States has helped, rather than a Federally mandated mitigation program implemented early.

You're both just shooting digs at NY and not actually talking about the issue, which is a bit of a problem around here. There are many tragedies in this several month period, and a lot of them could have been lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States. It's likely the lockdown could have been shorter, the cases less, deaths less and economy less affected overall if these things were tackled by the Federal Government earlier.

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


This goes through figures using IHME to show how Federally mandated mitigation could have reduced deaths in the US if the government had imposed measures earlier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html

On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.

To determine the impact of early interventions, we used growth rates in cumulative deaths calculated by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington from the date that social distancing measures were introduced until the predicted end of the epidemic, and applied them to case numbers from earlier points when such measures could hypothetically have been put into effect.


Ok. Open for insults, derogatory comments, refutations based on pure emotion and other usual non-objective tactics.






I, for one, would be leery of giving that kind of power to any President of the US.

In the US, there were 8 states that didn't issue mandatory stay at home orders. None of those States were in risk of their hospitals being overrun which was the primary, original goal of the lockdown. There always exist more than one way to skin a cat.

There were many other states that had lockdowns of differing severity. In each individual state you see a wide disparity among local counties and their state govts. Some counties are actually in open rebellion. Most state Govnr's don't have the legal authority.

The argument that the lockdown doesn't carry it's own deathtoll has somehow been excluded.

The decision to have a centralized mandate, would carry with it an important factor. Down the road, the economic costs of decision making during the time of the Pandemic would be distributed equally. For example, say my company has production in China that I now desire to bring back to the States. Would I pick New York, with it high tax, high cost, likely future shutdown environment, or someplace like South Dakota or Arkansas. I would only pick New York if the logistics savings or customer engagement was very concentrated there or the state plied me with tons of tax dollars/offsets or the Govt guaranteed I was immune from any future lockdown.

But if Arkansas was forced to shutdown, well then, that removes a very big decision making input.

Cap said earlier that he fears a 4 year or so economic turnaround. I think we are more like at 10 years right now, based on the 2008 economic downturn or even longer. Just to give an idea of the hideous changes that are upon us, Gov Cuomo of New York is openly questioning having brick and mortar schools. Colleges are going to be especially hard hit.

Not only are we living in the greatest medical experiment of all time, we are going to see a huge economic migration across the world. It took almost 3 generations for economic interdependencies to return to their pre WW1 pre Spanish flu levels.

May you live in interesting times.









I don't know why you'd be leery of giving that kind of power to the Prez... It's OK to authorize a nuclear launch but not OK to issue an emergency order? I think he can run on an emergency order for 90 days and then Congress has to back it or the order ceases.


_____________________________


DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7171
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 7:39:27 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9232
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

I don't know much about Cuomo, but I'd assume any governor is trying to do his best under difficult circumstances.

To give you some background on Cuomo's scruples [before he was Governor] :
Attorney General Andrew Cuomo was under investigation for unaccountable billions of dollars missing from the coiffures at HUD during his time in charge of the Dept.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_valuation_code_of_conduct

It's a complex issue, but unless he had a personal revelation once moving into the Governor's office, Andrew Cuomo is the type that will step on the public to get his way [to put it nicely].

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 7172
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 7:43:01 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8475
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
Coronavirus takes a toll in Sweden's immigrant community
By DAVID KEYTON Associated Press
May 9, 2020

quote:

Inside Sweden's immigrant communities, anecdotal evidence emerged early in the outbreak that suggested that some — particularly those from Somalia and Iraq — were hit harder than others. Last month, data from Sweden’s Public Health Agency confirmed that Somali Swedes made up almost 5 percent of the country's COVID-19 cases, yet represented less than 1 percent of its 10 million people.

Many in these communities are more likely to live in crowded, multigeneration households and are unable to work remotely.

“No one cares for taxi drivers in Sweden,” said Khalaf, who tested positive and was admitted to a hospital when his condition deteriorated. Despite difficulties breathing, the 49-year-old says he was sent home after six hours and told his body was strong enough to “fight it off.”

In Finland, Helsinki authorities warned of a similar over-representation among Somali immigrants in the capital — some 200 cases, or about 14%, of all confirmed infections. In Norway, where immigrants make up nearly 15% of the general population, they represent about 25% of confirmed coronavirus cases.

“I think a pandemic like this one, or any crisis will hit the most vulnerable people in society the most wherever in the world, and we see this in many many countries," said Isabella Lovin, Sweden's deputy prime minister, in an interview with The Associated Press.

Noting that the virus was spreading faster in some crowded Stockholm suburbs, Lovin said said the city is providing short-term accommodation to some people whose relatives are vulnerable.

Sweden, Norway and Finland recognized early failings in community outreach in minority languages and are seeking to fix this. The town of Jarfalla, outside Stockholm, has had high school students hand out leaflets in Somali, Persian, French and other languages, urging people to wash their hands and stay home if sick.

With Sweden's relatively low-key approach to fighting the virus that relies mainly on voluntary social distancing, there are concerns the message has not reached everyone in immigrant neighborhoods.

“It’s important that everyone living here who has a different mother tongue gets the right information,” said Warda Addallah, a 17-year-old Somali Swede.

Anders Wallensten, Sweden’s deputy state epidemiologist, said officials have worked harder on communicating with such groups "to make sure they have the knowledge to protect themselves and avoid spreading the disease to others.”


https://www.startribune.com/coronavirus-takes-a-toll-in-sweden-s-immigrant-community/570333581/

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7173
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 7:46:05 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.


I think both RangerJoe and witqs cold do to use some examples of how leaving it all to the States has helped, rather than a Federally mandated mitigation program implemented early.

You're both just shooting digs at NY and not actually talking about the issue, which is a bit of a problem around here. There are many tragedies in this several month period, and a lot of them could have been lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States. It's likely the lockdown could have been shorter, the cases less, deaths less and economy less affected overall if these things were tackled by the Federal Government earlier.

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


This goes through figures using IHME to show how Federally mandated mitigation could have reduced deaths in the US if the government had imposed measures earlier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html

On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.

To determine the impact of early interventions, we used growth rates in cumulative deaths calculated by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington from the date that social distancing measures were introduced until the predicted end of the epidemic, and applied them to case numbers from earlier points when such measures could hypothetically have been put into effect.


Ok. Open for insults, derogatory comments, refutations based on pure emotion and other usual non-objective tactics.

Erik,

You are the one 'shooting digs'. Fauci has said, more than once and on video, that Trump did what he asked the first time every time (including Trump not doing things Fauci asked him not to do). And that specifically includes Fauci going back on air to counter the misuse of his answer to a hypothetical question, the very one which you include here.

Your default is 'centralize everything', that you've made clear.


There are no digs. The personnel stuff is because I'm fed up with the BS you and others throw ardour at anyone who presents something slightly different than your world view, and is met with outrage without any foundation in fact. My default is to look widely for expert advice, objective information and base my posts on the best science has to offer in the moment. There are no politics in that, no agenda, just trying to understand.

This is objective information I'm getting from sources that are verified. How do you explain what Fauci said in this interview?

Have a look. One week to have 60% less deaths in this phase. Two weeks earlier to have 90% less. Even if there is some error margin in those projections, I'd certainly take 40-50% less deaths. Wouldn't you?

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 7174
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 7:49:02 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.


I think both RangerJoe and witqs cold do to use some examples of how leaving it all to the States has helped, rather than a Federally mandated mitigation program implemented early.

You're both just shooting digs at NY and not actually talking about the issue, which is a bit of a problem around here. There are many tragedies in this several month period, and a lot of them could have been lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States. It's likely the lockdown could have been shorter, the cases less, deaths less and economy less affected overall if these things were tackled by the Federal Government earlier.

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


This goes through figures using IHME to show how Federally mandated mitigation could have reduced deaths in the US if the government had imposed measures earlier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html

On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.

To determine the impact of early interventions, we used growth rates in cumulative deaths calculated by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington from the date that social distancing measures were introduced until the predicted end of the epidemic, and applied them to case numbers from earlier points when such measures could hypothetically have been put into effect.


Ok. Open for insults, derogatory comments, refutations based on pure emotion and other usual non-objective tactics.

Erik,

You are the one 'shooting digs'. Fauci has said, more than once and on video, that Trump did what he asked the first time every time (including Trump not doing things Fauci asked him not to do). And that specifically includes Fauci going back on air to counter the misuse of his answer to a hypothetical question, the very one which you include here.

Your default is 'centralize everything', that you've made clear.


After recent events, my interest was taken with the decision making at the top levels of US government.

From this, and the recent interaction between Trump and Dr Brix, I am of the opinion that Fauci, Brix (and likely anyone else involved in the process) would say the sky is green if it kept Trump on side.

Trump's comments (well, tweets) on the subject are in the public domain.

If you read those comments as the comments of a leader that takes the situation and the advice seriously, then perhaps get your eyes tested.


Thank you. Of course they're trying to stay influential to save lives, regardless of the backlash they may receive personally. .

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 7175
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 7:55:23 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8475
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.


I think both RangerJoe and witqs cold do to use some examples of how leaving it all to the States has helped, rather than a Federally mandated mitigation program implemented early.

You're both just shooting digs at NY and not actually talking about the issue, which is a bit of a problem around here. There are many tragedies in this several month period, and a lot of them could have been lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States. It's likely the lockdown could have been shorter, the cases less, deaths less and economy less affected overall if these things were tackled by the Federal Government earlier.

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


This goes through figures using IHME to show how Federally mandated mitigation could have reduced deaths in the US if the government had imposed measures earlier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html

On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.

To determine the impact of early interventions, we used growth rates in cumulative deaths calculated by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington from the date that social distancing measures were introduced until the predicted end of the epidemic, and applied them to case numbers from earlier points when such measures could hypothetically have been put into effect.


Ok. Open for insults, derogatory comments, refutations based on pure emotion and other usual non-objective tactics.






I, for one, would be leery of giving that kind of power to any President of the US.

In the US, there were 8 states that didn't issue mandatory stay at home orders. None of those States were in risk of their hospitals being overrun which was the primary, original goal of the lockdown. There always exist more than one way to skin a cat.

There were many other states that had lockdowns of differing severity. In each individual state you see a wide disparity among local counties and their state govts. Some counties are actually in open rebellion. Most state Govnr's don't have the legal authority.

The argument that the lockdown doesn't carry it's own deathtoll has somehow been excluded.

The decision to have a centralized mandate, would carry with it an important factor. Down the road, the economic costs of decision making during the time of the Pandemic would be distributed equally. For example, say my company has production in China that I now desire to bring back to the States. Would I pick New York, with it high tax, high cost, likely future shutdown environment, or someplace like South Dakota or Arkansas. I would only pick New York if the logistics savings or customer engagement was very concentrated there or the state plied me with tons of tax dollars/offsets or the Govt guaranteed I was immune from any future lockdown.

But if Arkansas was forced to shutdown, well then, that removes a very big decision making input.

Cap said earlier that he fears a 4 year or so economic turnaround. I think we are more like at 10 years right now, based on the 2008 economic downturn or even longer. Just to give an idea of the hideous changes that are upon us, Gov Cuomo of New York is openly questioning having brick and mortar schools. Colleges are going to be especially hard hit.

Not only are we living in the greatest medical experiment of all time, we are going to see a huge economic migration across the world. It took almost 3 generations for economic interdependencies to return to their pre WW1 pre Spanish flu levels.

May you live in interesting times.


I don't know why you'd be leery of giving that kind of power to the Prez... It's OK to authorize a nuclear launch but not OK to issue an emergency order? I think he can run on an emergency order for 90 days and then Congress has to back it or the order ceases.


Launch a nuclear device is part of his job as Commander in Chief of the US military. For what reason is there a need for an emergency order and what part of the Constitution allows for that?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to durnedwolf)
Post #: 7176
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 7:58:34 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8475
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.


I think both RangerJoe and witqs cold do to use some examples of how leaving it all to the States has helped, rather than a Federally mandated mitigation program implemented early.

You're both just shooting digs at NY and not actually talking about the issue, which is a bit of a problem around here. There are many tragedies in this several month period, and a lot of them could have been lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States. It's likely the lockdown could have been shorter, the cases less, deaths less and economy less affected overall if these things were tackled by the Federal Government earlier.

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


This goes through figures using IHME to show how Federally mandated mitigation could have reduced deaths in the US if the government had imposed measures earlier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html

On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.

To determine the impact of early interventions, we used growth rates in cumulative deaths calculated by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington from the date that social distancing measures were introduced until the predicted end of the epidemic, and applied them to case numbers from earlier points when such measures could hypothetically have been put into effect.


Ok. Open for insults, derogatory comments, refutations based on pure emotion and other usual non-objective tactics.

Erik,

You are the one 'shooting digs'. Fauci has said, more than once and on video, that Trump did what he asked the first time every time (including Trump not doing things Fauci asked him not to do). And that specifically includes Fauci going back on air to counter the misuse of his answer to a hypothetical question, the very one which you include here.

Your default is 'centralize everything', that you've made clear.


After recent events, my interest was taken with the decision making at the top levels of US government.

From this, and the recent interaction between Trump and Dr Brix, I am of the opinion that Fauci, Brix (and likely anyone else involved in the process) would say the sky is green if it kept Trump on side.

Trump's comments (well, tweets) on the subject are in the public domain.

If you read those comments as the comments of a leader that takes the situation and the advice seriously, then perhaps get your eyes tested.


Thank you. Of course they're trying to stay influential to save lives, regardless of the backlash they may receive personally. .


I do need to get my eyes tested, but that is another story.

Please show me where Trump did not take their advice. From what I have read, Trump has taken their advice. But remember, Trump does not rule by fiat.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7177
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 8:02:00 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8475
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.


I think both RangerJoe and witqs cold do to use some examples of how leaving it all to the States has helped, rather than a Federally mandated mitigation program implemented early.

You're both just shooting digs at NY and not actually talking about the issue, which is a bit of a problem around here. There are many tragedies in this several month period, and a lot of them could have been lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States. It's likely the lockdown could have been shorter, the cases less, deaths less and economy less affected overall if these things were tackled by the Federal Government earlier.

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


This goes through figures using IHME to show how Federally mandated mitigation could have reduced deaths in the US if the government had imposed measures earlier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html

On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.

To determine the impact of early interventions, we used growth rates in cumulative deaths calculated by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington from the date that social distancing measures were introduced until the predicted end of the epidemic, and applied them to case numbers from earlier points when such measures could hypothetically have been put into effect.


Ok. Open for insults, derogatory comments, refutations based on pure emotion and other usual non-objective tactics.

Erik,

You are the one 'shooting digs'. Fauci has said, more than once and on video, that Trump did what he asked the first time every time (including Trump not doing things Fauci asked him not to do). And that specifically includes Fauci going back on air to counter the misuse of his answer to a hypothetical question, the very one which you include here.

Your default is 'centralize everything', that you've made clear.


There are no digs. The personnel stuff is because I'm fed up with the BS you and others throw ardour at anyone who presents something slightly different than your world view, and is met with outrage without any foundation in fact. My default is to look widely for expert advice, objective information and base my posts on the best science has to offer in the moment. There are no politics in that, no agenda, just trying to understand.

This is objective information I'm getting from sources that are verified. How do you explain what Fauci said in this interview?

Have a look. One week to have 60% less deaths in this phase. Two weeks earlier to have 90% less. Even if there is some error margin in those projections, I'd certainly take 40-50% less deaths. Wouldn't you?


You appear to be only looking at the deaths from Covid-19. How about the other deaths caused by the lockdowns? How about other lives ruined or not made better? That death of the young lady that I posted is tragic, the worse tragedy is that the family donates her organs and they are not used because of the lockdowns.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7178
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 8:07:38 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8475
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

I don't know much about Cuomo, but I'd assume any governor is trying to do his best under difficult circumstances.

To give you some background on Cuomo's scruples [before he was Governor] :
Attorney General Andrew Cuomo was under investigation for unaccountable billions of dollars missing from the coiffures at HUD during his time in charge of the Dept.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_valuation_code_of_conduct

It's a complex issue, but unless he had a personal revelation once moving into the Governor's office, Andrew Cuomo is the type that will step on the public to get his way [to put it nicely].


Coumo also wanted control of the Federal ventilator supply so he could dole them out to those places that needed them if New York state did not. "See how I helped you during the Covid-19 pandemic? As governor of the state of New York, I had ventilators sent to your state while the Federal government did not send any to your state. So vote for me."

I can imagine that some people in certain positions want the situation to remain so their party will be able to benefit from it. No crisis is too good to waste.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 5/9/2020 8:40:50 PM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 7179
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 8:23:57 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
Firstly, thanks for the reasoned response.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I, for one, would be leery of giving that kind of power to any President of the US.



All we're talking about is the information that was actually given out as a recommendation in mid March. The federal guidelines for social distancing on March 16.

If that was done one or two weeks earlier, it saves lives.

quote:


In the US, there were 8 states that didn't issue mandatory stay at home orders. None of those States were in risk of their hospitals being overrun which was the primary, original goal of the lockdown. There always exist more than one way to skin a cat.



Because of the Federal guidelines many did so anyway, many businesses closed, and many people distanced as in other places. That helps. That is why the Federal level guidelines were important. This also doesn't mean this was he reason those states didn't (yet) have a severe outbreak. The US is large, some states are definitely more rural and people are naturally less likely to have come in close contact with many others regularly.

quote:


There were many other states that had lockdowns of differing severity. In each individual state you see a wide disparity among local counties and their state govts. Some counties are actually in open rebellion. Most state Govnr's don't have the legal authority.



More reasons why Federal level guidelines are important. Again, the US is large, diverse, strange and wonderful. People do sometimes need to reign in their freedoms for the good of all though. It's happened before and didn't result in a loss of those freedoms.

quote:



The argument that the lockdown doesn't carry it's own deathtoll has somehow been excluded.



Many who are arguing against lockdowns use this as an argument, but also use mortality figures from a period when the social distancing and lockdowns were in place. If left to run both the Covid mortality goes up and the excess deaths from other conditions go up if hospitals are overwhelmed.

quote:



The decision to have a centralized mandate, would carry with it an important factor. Down the road, the economic costs of decision making during the time of the Pandemic would be distributed equally. For example, say my company has production in China that I now desire to bring back to the States. Would I pick New York, with it high tax, high cost, likely future shutdown environment, or someplace like South Dakota or Arkansas. I would only pick New York if the logistics savings or customer engagement was very concentrated there or the state plied me with tons of tax dollars/offsets or the Govt guaranteed I was immune from any future lockdown.

But if Arkansas was forced to shutdown, well then, that removes a very big decision making input.


If social distancing guidelines came a week or two earlier it would not change anything about this issue.

quote:


Cap said earlier that he fears a 4 year or so economic turnaround. I think we are more like at 10 years right now, based on the 2008 economic downturn or even longer. Just to give an idea of the hideous changes that are upon us, Gov Cuomo of New York is openly questioning having brick and mortar schools. Colleges are going to be especially hard hit.

Not only are we living in the greatest medical experiment of all time, we are going to see a huge economic migration across the world. It took almost 3 generations for economic interdependencies to return to their pre WW1 pre Spanish flu levels.

May you live in interesting times.




I think it'll all recover much more quickly. Travel will be tough, but I have a friend at a high level in that industry, and even he thinks there will be some positive upturns through the summer domestically and gradually through next year.

The US has sent a lot of people out of jobs, but those jobs will come back. Opening is happening, for better or worse, right now. Businesses will need people to resume.

The US is the largest economy in the world in spite of all of this. It will adapt. There are a lot of people out there who still want to make a lot of money. I fear for the poor, not the economy, in the long term.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7180
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 8:27:02 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.


I think both RangerJoe and witqs cold do to use some examples of how leaving it all to the States has helped, rather than a Federally mandated mitigation program implemented early.

You're both just shooting digs at NY and not actually talking about the issue, which is a bit of a problem around here. There are many tragedies in this several month period, and a lot of them could have been lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States. It's likely the lockdown could have been shorter, the cases less, deaths less and economy less affected overall if these things were tackled by the Federal Government earlier.

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


This goes through figures using IHME to show how Federally mandated mitigation could have reduced deaths in the US if the government had imposed measures earlier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html

On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.

To determine the impact of early interventions, we used growth rates in cumulative deaths calculated by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington from the date that social distancing measures were introduced until the predicted end of the epidemic, and applied them to case numbers from earlier points when such measures could hypothetically have been put into effect.


Ok. Open for insults, derogatory comments, refutations based on pure emotion and other usual non-objective tactics.

Erik,

You are the one 'shooting digs'. Fauci has said, more than once and on video, that Trump did what he asked the first time every time (including Trump not doing things Fauci asked him not to do). And that specifically includes Fauci going back on air to counter the misuse of his answer to a hypothetical question, the very one which you include here.

Your default is 'centralize everything', that you've made clear.


There are no digs. The personnel stuff is because I'm fed up with the BS you and others throw ardour at anyone who presents something slightly different than your world view, and is met with outrage without any foundation in fact. My default is to look widely for expert advice, objective information and base my posts on the best science has to offer in the moment. There are no politics in that, no agenda, just trying to understand.

This is objective information I'm getting from sources that are verified. How do you explain what Fauci said in this interview?

Have a look. One week to have 60% less deaths in this phase. Two weeks earlier to have 90% less. Even if there is some error margin in those projections, I'd certainly take 40-50% less deaths. Wouldn't you?


You appear to be only looking at the deaths from Covid-19. How about the other deaths caused by the lockdowns? How about other lives ruined or not made better? That death of the young lady that I posted is tragic, the worse tragedy is that the family donates her organs and they are not used because of the lockdowns.


Without the lockdown those excess deaths would be more prevalent, as hospitals become less able to treat both Covid patients and other cases. The medical staff would also have taken a bigger hit, and many industries would have faced shutdowns anyway from people off sick, even if they weren't in hospital.

This is about starting social distancing earlier, saving lives by limiting the total number of infections, which would prepare much better for a quicker opening and less economic and social hardship. See Denmark for an example.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7181
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 8:32:36 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


I do need to get my eyes tested, but that is another story.

Please show me where Trump did not take their advice. From what I have read, Trump has taken their advice. But remember, Trump does not rule by fiat.


Are you aware at all of the full range of reactions t this situation that the US president has stated publicly, on the record, in briefings and through social media? You should have another read through those.

I will again link the interview Fauci gave where he stated there was "pushback" about initiating social distancing. Do you think that came form someone other than the US president?

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


< Message edited by obvert -- 5/9/2020 8:37:40 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7182
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 8:39:49 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3078
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Coumo also wanted control of the Federal ventilator supply

Huh? Where did you here that? He certainly wanted control of what was in his state but he wanted control of the entire federal supply? Really?

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 5/9/2020 8:43:08 PM >


_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7183
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 8:47:36 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2937
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Should we ban driving because people might get shot?

...



Seeing as it was the gun that killed her, would make more sense to do something about that, no?

However, I suspect I know exactly what you'll say in response.

One interesting thing I find in discussions on this topic is that the emphasis is never on the "well regulated milita", but instead on the "right to bear arms"...


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Launch a nuclear device is part of his job as Commander in Chief of the US military. For what reason is there a need for an emergency order and what part of the Constitution allows for that?


Oh, so presidential power being unlimited is fine, provided it's in a military capacity?

Right, I can see no problem with that...


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I do need to get my eyes tested, but that is another story.

Please show me where Trump did not take their advice. From what I have read, Trump has taken their advice. But remember, Trump does not rule by fiat.


It's ongoing as we interact - current reports are that Trump doesn't intend to follow the CDC recommendations for Covid.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You appear to be only looking at the deaths from Covid-19. How about the other deaths caused by the lockdowns? How about other lives ruined or not made better? That death of the young lady that I posted is tragic, the worse tragedy is that the family donates her organs and they are not used because of the lockdowns.


Initial indications that I've seen from Scotland are that Covid accounts for an overwhelming (80% IIRC) of excess deaths for the period.

Worth remembering that it's not all negative - less people out and about means less crime, RTA, etc.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Coumo also wanted control of the Federal ventilator supply

Huh? Where did you here that? He certainly wanted control of what was in his state but he wanted control of the entire federal supply? Really?


I too eagerly await the source for this claim.


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7184
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 8:47:42 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3078
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

It's a complex issue, but unless he had a personal revelation once moving into the Governor's office, Andrew Cuomo is the type that will step on the public to get his way [to put it nicely].

He was a friend of my brothers when they both attended Archbishop Molloy High School in Queens. He was in my house a lot. Seemed like a nice enough guy, if ambitious. Huh......you have some "unproven allegations" there? If we are going to start listing unproven allegations against standing office holders we are going to have to get a bigger thread. He certainly seems to have brought the infection rates down in New York City and State though. Can't argue with success

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 5/9/2020 8:50:47 PM >


_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 7185
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 8:48:47 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8475
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Coumo also wanted control of the Federal ventilator supply

Huh? Where did you here that? He certainly wanted control of what was in his state but he wanted control of the entire federal supply? Really?


Gov. Andrew Cuomo demands stockpiled ventilators go immediately to New York first
by: CNN Wire
Posted: Mar 24, 2020

quote:

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday demanded the federal government take dramatic action to send thousands of stockpiled ventilators immediately to his state first, saying the Empire State’s immense coronavirus caseload threatened catastrophe in days without it.

He said New York has more than 25,000 coronavirus cases — at least 10 times as many as any other state — and his state needs 30,000 more ventilators on top of the 7,000 it has.

Cuomo wants all of what he called a current federal stockpile of 20,000 ventilators to brace for the coming “apex” in cases in New York, which he says will arrive as soon as 14 days.


https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/gov-andrew-cuomo-demands-stockpiled-ventilators-go-immediately-to-new-york-first/

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 5/9/2020 8:49:20 PM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 7186
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 8:53:30 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2937
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Coumo also wanted control of the Federal ventilator supply

Huh? Where did you here that? He certainly wanted control of what was in his state but he wanted control of the entire federal supply? Really?


Gov. Andrew Cuomo demands stockpiled ventilators go immediately to New York first
by: CNN Wire
Posted: Mar 24, 2020

quote:

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday demanded the federal government take dramatic action to send thousands of stockpiled ventilators immediately to his state first, saying the Empire State’s immense coronavirus caseload threatened catastrophe in days without it.

He said New York has more than 25,000 coronavirus cases — at least 10 times as many as any other state — and his state needs 30,000 more ventilators on top of the 7,000 it has.

Cuomo wants all of what he called a current federal stockpile of 20,000 ventilators to brace for the coming “apex” in cases in New York, which he says will arrive as soon as 14 days.


https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/gov-andrew-cuomo-demands-stockpiled-ventilators-go-immediately-to-new-york-first/


Big difference between what you claimed and what is actually reported.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7187
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 8:57:50 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8475
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
Trump cites Post op-ed to blast Cuomo for not buying ventilators — in 2015
By Bob Fredericks
March 24, 2020

quote:

Cuomo for reportedly declining to buy 16,000 ventilators in 2015 to deal with a potential future pandemic.

“He had 16,000 ventilators that he could have bought and he didn’t buy them. He should’ve ordered the ventilators,” Trump said during a Fox News town hall. “They can’t blame us for that. Gov. Cuomo is supposed to be buying his own ventilators.”


https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/trump-cites-post-op-ed-to-blast-cuomo-for-not-buying-ventilators-in-2015/

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7188
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 9:09:06 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1077
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline
I'm not sure the meat plant situations are worse than other scenarios but the the scale creates the problem. There are thousands at those big Alberta plants....leads to hundreds of cases...leads to the publicity.

The same social issue is part of the problem at long term care facilities also. There are many poorly trained, poorly paid staff...many working in multiple facilities. The same micro-community from the High River meat plant also have spouses working in care facilities, some in more than one care facility.

I hasten to add, before my comments are taken out of context, that I am casting no invective nor aspersion towards these communities. It's guys like me that created this mess...I want cheap meat and expect my mother to be taken care of without interrupting my pocket-book.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 7189
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 9:09:24 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3078
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Coumo also wanted control of the Federal ventilator supply

Huh? Where did you here that? He certainly wanted control of what was in his state but he wanted control of the entire federal supply? Really?


Gov. Andrew Cuomo demands stockpiled ventilators go immediately to New York first
by: CNN Wire
Posted: Mar 24, 2020

quote:

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday demanded the federal government take dramatic action to send thousands of stockpiled ventilators immediately to his state first, saying the Empire State’s immense coronavirus caseload threatened catastrophe in days without it.

He said New York has more than 25,000 coronavirus cases — at least 10 times as many as any other state — and his state needs 30,000 more ventilators on top of the 7,000 it has.

Cuomo wants all of what he called a current federal stockpile of 20,000 ventilators to brace for the coming “apex” in cases in New York, which he says will arrive as soon as 14 days.


https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/gov-andrew-cuomo-demands-stockpiled-ventilators-go-immediately-to-new-york-first/

Yup, he wanted ventilators for his State. I don't see where he said he "wanted control of the Federal ventilator supply" Those are two different things. He never said what you said he did

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7190
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 9:09:56 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8475
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
Elon Musk says Tesla will 'immediately' leave California after coronavirus shutdowns forced the company to close its main car factory
Business Insider•May 9, 2020

quote:

Elon Musk says Tesla may leave its Palo Alto headquarters and Fremont, California factory.

In a tweet Saturday morning, the chief executive continued his outrage against shelter-in-place orders that have forced most non-essential businesses to close.

Last week, Musk likened the rules to fascism, and urged leaders to "give people their goddamn freedom back."

After a week of decrying coronavirus shelter-in-place orders that have left Tesla's main factory shuttered and unable to produce vehicles, Elon Musk says the company may move its factory out of the state.

"Tesla is filing a lawsuit against Alameda County immediately," the chief executive said on Twitter Saturday morning. "The unelected & ignorant 'Interim Health Officer' of Alameda is acting contrary to the Governor, the President, our Constitutional freedoms & just plain common sense!"

That was followed up with a threat to move Tesla's headquarters outside the state.

"Frankly, this is the final straw," he replied. "Tesla will now move its HQ and future programs to Texas/Nevada immediately. If we even retain Fremont manufacturing activity at all, it will be dependent on how Tesla is treated in the future. Tesla is the last carmaker left in CA."—Elon Musk (@elonmusk) May 9, 2020

It wasn't immediately clear if a suit had yet been filed, or in which court Tesla will file the lawsuit. Most state and federal courts are closed on weekends and do not allow filing. In a subsequent Tweet, Musk alsourged shareholders to file a class action suit for damages caused by shutdown.

Tesla's press relations department did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Alameda County did not immediately respond to a request for comment.


https://news.yahoo.com/elon-musk-says-tesla-immediately-173400044.html

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7191
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 9:11:10 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 802
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

....Creepy...

"We are businesses, nonprofits, governments and individuals...working in collaboration to ensure that the future of digital identity is, indeed, #goodID."

https://id2020.org/







Never trust a guy who wants everyone on the planet to have a vaccine verification card, but REFUSED to have his own children vaccinated.




FALSE

https://apnews.com/afs:Content:8873480039

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 7192
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 9:14:23 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8475
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
It Begins. California Official Announces Program to Remove People with COVID-19 From Their Homes to Quarantine Centers (VIDEO)
By Jim Hoft
Published May 7, 2020 at 10:13am

quote:

WHAT WOULD YOU DO if your six year old son or daughter tested positive for COVID19 and was taken from your home to a quarantine center by Ventura Health Authorities? This SHOCKING VIDEO demands that you plan ahead. #BeBrave #HistoryRepeating pic.twitter.com/e5RC7dCO7o

— Del Bigtree (@delbigtree) May 6, 2020


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/05/begins-california-officials-announce-program-remove-people-covid-19-homes-quarantine-centers-video/

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7193
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 9:14:54 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3078
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

“He had 16,000 ventilators that he could have bought and he didn’t buy them. He should’ve ordered the ventilators,” Trump said during a Fox News town hall. “They can’t blame us for that. Gov. Cuomo is supposed to be buying his own ventilators.”
Well if Trump said it it must be true! , but it's not really the States job to fight global pandemics. Every State should be prepared to fight global pandemics? What about earthquakes, floods and hurricanes? That's on the states too? No Federal response to global events? Trump also suggested injecting disinfectants and I suspect that is not true either.

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7194
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 9:16:45 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Trump cites Post op-ed to blast Cuomo for not buying ventilators — in 2015
By Bob Fredericks
March 24, 2020

quote:

Cuomo for reportedly declining to buy 16,000 ventilators in 2015 to deal with a potential future pandemic.

“He had 16,000 ventilators that he could have bought and he didn’t buy them. He should’ve ordered the ventilators,” Trump said during a Fox News town hall. “They can’t blame us for that. Gov. Cuomo is supposed to be buying his own ventilators.”


https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/trump-cites-post-op-ed-to-blast-cuomo-for-not-buying-ventilators-in-2015/


Did you read the article?

Then-state health commissioner Howard Zucker assembled a task force for rationing the ventilators they already had that recommended that the state not purchase the 16,000 ventilators because there weren’t enough doctors and medical personnel to operate them.

Instead, the task force devised a classification system to prioritize which patients would be treated on a ventilator.


Aside from this, NY was going through the most intense phase during the time those vents were requested, and we can look back and say that many were not needed. No one knew that then, or if the lockdown would actually work enough to keep the health system functioning. In the largest metropolitan area in the US this is not an outrageous request in the face of a pandemic.

Like so many other parts of this situation in the states it turned into politics. So sad.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7195
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 9:21:50 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

....Creepy...

"We are businesses, nonprofits, governments and individuals...working in collaboration to ensure that the future of digital identity is, indeed, #goodID."

https://id2020.org/




Never trust a guy who wants everyone on the planet to have a vaccine verification card, but REFUSED to have his own children vaccinated.




FALSE

https://apnews.com/afs:Content:8873480039


Not unexpected. One of the reasons it might just be slightly more reliable to get information from sites that check facts before publishing.

CLAIM: Bill Gates’ former doctor says the vaccine advocate refused to vaccinate his own children.

AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. The Microsoft founder and billionaire philanthropist has had all his children fully vaccinated.

THE FACTS: Social media users have revived a false claim that suggests Gates has an ulterior motive for promoting vaccines.

The false claim about Gates’ children circulated widely in 2018 following an article by the online publication YourNewsWire, which now goes by NewsPunch. Websites are now recirculating the YourNewsWire article suggesting to have inside information from Bill Gates’ supposed doctor.

Sean Adl-Tabatabai, the editor-in-chief of the publication, told the AP in an email that YourNewsWire no longer stands by the story.

“Our editorial standards have changed significantly since we moved to NewsPunch.com in late 2018,” he said. “The story was originally published on YourNewsWire.com - the claims made in the article were copied from a blog elsewhere on the web. Since it came to light that the claims we had copied were unreliable and likely false, we removed the story from YourNewsWire and didn’t republish on our new site.”



< Message edited by obvert -- 5/9/2020 9:23:16 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 7196
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 9:25:52 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8475
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
Report: Rise in Suicide from Gov't Shutdowns Could Cause More Deaths Than COVID in Australia

quote:

Australia might see more deaths from an increase in suicides relating to the coronavirus pandemic than from the actual virus, according to a report from a university in the country.

SBS News reported that mental health researchers at Sydney University’s Brain and Mind Centre are predicting a 25 percent to 50 percent uptick in suicides during the country’s lockdown, and potentially beyond.

Models from the university are predicting that an extra 750 to 1,500 suicides a year could end up being attributed to the financial and mental health toll created by the virus, and by shuttering society to respond to it.

Up to 30 percent of those new suicide deaths could tragically occur among young people who are now overburdened by the pandemic and the fear and uncertainty surrounding it.

To make matters worse, the prediction of an increased suicide rate could play out over a prolonged five-year period.
.
.
.
According to Worldometers, which tracks global statistics in real time, more than 377,000 people worldwide have committed suicide so far in 2020, while more than 270,000 have died from the coronavirus globally.

The global suicide rate thus already outpaces lives lost due to the coronavirus.

President Donald Trump drew flak from the media when he suggested in March that the government’s response to the virus cannot be too heavy-handed, tweeting: “WE CANNOT LET THE CURE BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM ITSELF.”

Trump also cited his fear about an increased suicide rate coinciding with mass public lockdowns.

“You’re going to lose more people by putting a country into a massive recession or depression.” Trump said during a Fox News town hall on March 24. “You’re going to lose people. You’re going to have suicides by the thousands.”

Other experts are warning that more people could soon be dying from other causes as well at a time when the majority of resources being directed to the pandemic.

The Telegraph reported this week that a reduced focus on tuberculosis by health care providers during the COVID-19 pandemic could lead to an additional 1.4 million deaths from tuberculosis and 6.3 million additional cases over the next five years, as routine doctor visits and health screenings are not happening.

That’s without mentioning cancer screenings and other essential health services that have been put on hold.

The United Nations last month also warned of famines of “biblical proportion” due to the coronavirus pandemic.

U.N. executive David Beasley described the current global situation as “the worst humanitarian crisis since World War Two,” and added there are 130 million more people around the world who are now on the edge of starvation because of the pandemic.

These dire warnings come as the efficacy of mass lockdowns is already being questioned.

According to the data from a newly released medical survey, roughly 66 percent of hospitalized coronavirus patients within New York state — easily the hardest hit by the pandemic — were admitted from the safety of their own homes.


https://www.westernjournal.com/report-rise-suicide-govt-shutdowns-cause-deaths-covid-australia/

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7197
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 9:33:46 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8475
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Trump cites Post op-ed to blast Cuomo for not buying ventilators — in 2015
By Bob Fredericks
March 24, 2020

quote:

Cuomo for reportedly declining to buy 16,000 ventilators in 2015 to deal with a potential future pandemic.

“He had 16,000 ventilators that he could have bought and he didn’t buy them. He should’ve ordered the ventilators,” Trump said during a Fox News town hall. “They can’t blame us for that. Gov. Cuomo is supposed to be buying his own ventilators.”


https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/trump-cites-post-op-ed-to-blast-cuomo-for-not-buying-ventilators-in-2015/


Did you read the article?

Then-state health commissioner Howard Zucker assembled a task force for rationing the ventilators they already had that recommended that the state not purchase the 16,000 ventilators because there weren’t enough doctors and medical personnel to operate them.

Instead, the task force devised a classification system to prioritize which patients would be treated on a ventilator.


Aside from this, NY was going through the most intense phase during the time those vents were requested, and we can look back and say that many were not needed. No one knew that then, or if the lockdown would actually work enough to keep the health system functioning. In the largest metropolitan area in the US this is not an outrageous request in the face of a pandemic.

Like so many other parts of this situation in the states it turned into politics. So sad.


Yes, I read that. I also read where the panels that would make the decision as to who would get a ventilator and who would not were called death panels. But I chose not to post that as it might seem inflammatory.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7198
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 9:37:05 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8475
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

“He had 16,000 ventilators that he could have bought and he didn’t buy them. He should’ve ordered the ventilators,” Trump said during a Fox News town hall. “They can’t blame us for that. Gov. Cuomo is supposed to be buying his own ventilators.”
Well if Trump said it it must be true! , but it's not really the States job to fight global pandemics. Every State should be prepared to fight global pandemics? What about earthquakes, floods and hurricanes? That's on the states too? No Federal response to global events? Trump also suggested injecting disinfectants and I suspect that is not true either.


Actually, it is the state's job. The state's and the local government's job is to protect its citizens from illness, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, and many other dangers.

As far as bleach in the blood, I am sure that I have had that.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 7199
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 9:37:36 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3078
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Yes, I read that. I also read where the panels that would make the decision as to who would get a ventilator and who would not were called death panels. But I chose not to post that as it might seem inflammatory.
Oh how times have changed. Fox News used to say Obamacare would have death panels. Now you have the people in the meatpacking plants, with the highest infection rates, being forced back to work by being made mandatory employees.

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7200
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