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RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 2:17:59 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3078
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Nice name calling there for now reason. I am definitely not a scarecrow.

I'm not sure if you are kidding or you don't know what a straw man is. start here https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-straw-man/

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7141
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 2:20:33 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3078
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 5/9/2020 2:25:35 PM >


_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 7142
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 2:26:32 PM   
22sec

 

Posts: 900
Joined: 12/11/2004
From: Jackson, MS
Status: offline
Even in the army you have different commanders who are going to employ different tactics and different approaches when assaulting or defending, so shouldn’t we accept that there is no way to have some universal strategy when confronting COVID? To continue the military analogy further, what we as individual citizens do in the day to day is akin to what individual units in combat do. A brigade commander can come up with a sound plan to assault an enemy formation, but in the end it’s up to each small unit to maneuver and execute the plan. I don’t see any difference between the battlefield and the fight to slow the spread of COVID. Regardless of what level the decisions are being made, our fight comes down to what we all do within the “orders” we receive.

_____________________________


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 7143
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 2:42:10 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Nice name calling there for no reason. I am definitely not a scarecrow.

I'm not sure if you are kidding or you don't know what a straw man is. start here https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-straw-man/


I take it that you never have seen the Wizard of Oz nor even Green Acres.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 7144
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 2:52:19 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3078
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I take it that you never have seen the Wizard of Oz nor even Green Acres.
Both, many times and even the original show that Green Acres was spun off from, Petticoat Junction plus the movie that the much of the cast of the Wizard of Oz started in prior to their roll in Oz, The Terror of Tiny Town, the world's only musical Western with an all-dwarf cast.

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7145
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 2:55:08 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 25047
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.

_____________________________


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 7146
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 3:09:12 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 22736
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
We are at or near a tipping point for the "V-shaped" economic downturn and I fear we will drift over to a giant "U-shape" about 4 years wide if we don't do something.

As for the war analogy, it is fairly apt. During the Blitz of London, the Brits sent the kids out to the countryside. We did something similar except we sent all the old people to a hermetically sealed building with the virus INSIDE.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7147
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 3:17:19 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 7148
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 3:32:56 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20001
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
A Message to the People of Pennsylvania from Dauphin County Board Chairman Jeff Haste

https://www.dauphincounty.org/news_detail_T14_R309.php

Harrisburg, the State Capitol is in Dauphin County.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7149
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 3:42:50 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

A Message to the People of Pennsylvania from Dauphin County Board Chairman Jeff Haste

https://www.dauphincounty.org/news_detail_T14_R309.php

Harrisburg, the State Capitol is in Dauphin County.


Very nice, thank you.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7150
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 3:50:56 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3078
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
For the record nursing homes in NY State are barley regulated. It's the complete wild west. To some extent you get what you pay for but inspections are few and follow large numbers of complaints.......eventually. In the beginning I suspect they thought they were seeing a large number of flu deaths. When the numbers got crazy they probably didn't want to draw too much attention to themselves NY State absolutely failed people in nursing homes. It was the #1 failure and lots of people should be ashamed at what happened. When the time came for my parents they died at home or stayed at home until the last day or two. Most people don't die at home anymore. Not sure how we got there but I suspect it is partly a result of both parents (if there are 2 parents around) in many homes working full or part time. Anyway there is no central party making sure all the nursing homes are talking too each other. Hell, those hospitals were barley talking to each other. The nursing homes hid those deaths. Washington & New York are good examples of what not to do. I hope against hope that other states do a better job of this.

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7151
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 4:02:10 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

For the record nursing homes in NY State are barley regulated. It's the complete wild west. To some extent you get what you pay for but inspections are few and follow large numbers of complaints.......eventually. In the beginning I suspect they thought they were seeing a large number of flu deaths. When the numbers got crazy they probably didn't want to draw too much attention to themselves NY State absolutely failed people in nursing homes. It was the #1 failure and lots of people should be ashamed at what happened. When the time came for my parents they died at home or stayed at home until the last day or two. Most people don't die at home anymore. Not sure how we got there but I suspect it is partly a result of both parents (if there are 2 parents around) in many homes working full or part time. Anyway there is no central party making sure all the nursing homes are talking too each other. Hell, those hospitals were barley talking to each other. The nursing homes hid those deaths. Washington & New York are good examples of what not to do. I hope against hope that other states do a better job of this.


Must be a lot of beer or soup if they are barley regulated.

Aren't they inspected and certified once per year? If what you claimed is true about the regulations, why did they cave in to the state demands? Why didn't the nursing homes demand the tests? Isn't there an ombudsman for the patients/residents to complain to?

The nursing homes do not have to talk to each other. They are either indepently operated or are part of a larger group. The nursing homes will talk to their higher authorities but not necessarily talk to each other.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 7152
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 4:14:33 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.


I think both RangerJoe and witqs cold do to use some examples of how leaving it all to the States has helped, rather than a Federally mandated mitigation program implemented early.

You're both just shooting digs at NY and not actually talking about the issue, which is a bit of a problem around here. There are many tragedies in this several month period, and a lot of them could have been lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States. It's likely the lockdown could have been shorter, the cases less, deaths less and economy less affected overall if these things were tackled by the Federal Government earlier.

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


This goes through figures using IHME to show how Federally mandated mitigation could have reduced deaths in the US if the government had imposed measures earlier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html

On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.

To determine the impact of early interventions, we used growth rates in cumulative deaths calculated by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington from the date that social distancing measures were introduced until the predicted end of the epidemic, and applied them to case numbers from earlier points when such measures could hypothetically have been put into effect.


Ok. Open for insults, derogatory comments, refutations based on pure emotion and other usual non-objective tactics.





< Message edited by obvert -- 5/9/2020 5:01:52 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7153
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 5:02:26 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.


I think both RangerJoe and witqs cold do to use some examples of how leaving it all to the States has helped, rather than a Federally mandated mitigation program implemented early.

You're both just shooting digs at NY and not actually talking about the issue, which is a bit of a problem around here. There are many tragedies in this several month period, and a lot of them could have been lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States. It's likely the lockdown could have been shorter, the cases less, deaths less and economy less affected overall if these things were tackled by the Federal Government earlier.

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


This goes through figures using IHME to show how Federally mandated mitigation could have reduced deaths in the US if imposed earlier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html

On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.

To determine the impact of early interventions, we used growth rates in cumulative deaths calculated by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington from the date that social distancing measures were introduced until the predicted end of the epidemic, and applied them to case numbers from earlier points when such measures could hypothetically have been put into effect.


Ok. Open for insults, derogatory comments, refutations based on pure emotion and other usual tactics.


Okay, only recently was a Covid-19 case diagnosed with 20-30 miles from where I currently live which is 15 miles closer to where I lived when there was the shutdown. So why did I have to be in a place where the businesses were forced to close their doors? Tell me that one. Or is it because New York City and New York state really F***ed it up?

Why tell people to stay inside when the new coronavirus is mostly likely to be spread inside?

Why not just protect the most vulnerable?

Why quarantine the healthly people, ruin the economy, and encourage people not to take care of other pressing health concerns?

Where does the US Constitution state: "All of your rights are void if someone declares that there is a pandemic." Huh? Where does it state that? Or in any state constitution?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7154
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 5:07:15 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3078
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States.


It's May 9th, and President Trump still doesn’t have an adequate national testing strategy.

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7155
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 5:12:37 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15634
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

The real issue with Cndn meat packing plants (maybe everywhere??) is not even so much the work environment as the the social setting for the workers. These are ****ty jobs and the workers are predominantly poorer immigrant populations. These populations are tight knit, often travelling together, socializing together and in many instances sharing cramped accommodations. Language and education only add more problems to efforts to stem the virus.

My German opponent says that is exactly the make-up of meat-packing there also.

Alberta would pretty much have this licked were it not for several large meat plant out-breaks.


Excellent point.


I thought that there were enough American high school dropouts that could do this work so that the US would not have to import un/undereducated people to do this work. Then the worker should be able to understand English, American style.

I understand that in big Canada land that they do have a guest/temporary worker program so they could ensure that those legal temporary/guest workers could understand enough English, Canadian style. One point of emphasis would be for those workers from a warm climate would be that they should procure and wear a good, warm touk.

???
Not sure what you are getting at here. Our migrant workers are exactly like your migrant workers - mostly from Mexico and Central America, and if they know any English they got that in their own country. They are willing to do arduous work because in their own country they could not earn as much for the same effort, and most Canadian "unemployed students" would rather sponge off their parents than try to do that difficult work.

It's a question of motivation - the migrant workers mostly send money back to their families while the Canadian students don't really need the money so badly. The (Canadian) ones really motivated to earn money for their education can usually find better paying, less difficult jobs because of their better education.

And these hard working migrants tend to be very tough, quite able to handle the cold with a bit of warm clothing. Mexico has some areas that are cold in winter too, because of elevation. Regardless, since most of the migrant work is in agriculture, they tend to be here in spring and fall, not so much in winter.

What we do have is a policy of treating them like valued people. During this epidemic, we require them to self-quarantine after crossing the border, but we give them enough money to do so because our food supply depends on their work. And all safety standards that apply to Canadian workers also apply to them.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7156
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 5:21:50 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

The real issue with Cndn meat packing plants (maybe everywhere??) is not even so much the work environment as the the social setting for the workers. These are ****ty jobs and the workers are predominantly poorer immigrant populations. These populations are tight knit, often travelling together, socializing together and in many instances sharing cramped accommodations. Language and education only add more problems to efforts to stem the virus.

My German opponent says that is exactly the make-up of meat-packing there also.

Alberta would pretty much have this licked were it not for several large meat plant out-breaks.


Excellent point.


I thought that there were enough American high school dropouts that could do this work so that the US would not have to import un/undereducated people to do this work. Then the worker should be able to understand English, American style.

I understand that in big Canada land that they do have a guest/temporary worker program so they could ensure that those legal temporary/guest workers could understand enough English, Canadian style. One point of emphasis would be for those workers from a warm climate would be that they should procure and wear a good, warm touk.

???
Not sure what you are getting at here. Our migrant workers are exactly like your migrant workers - mostly from Mexico and Central America, and if they know any English they got that in their own country. They are willing to do arduous work because in their own country they could not earn as much for the same effort, and most Canadian "unemployed students" would rather sponge off their parents than try to do that difficult work.

It's a question of motivation - the migrant workers mostly send money back to their families while the Canadian students don't really need the money so badly. The (Canadian) ones really motivated to earn money for their education can usually find better paying, less difficult jobs because of their better education.

And these hard working migrants tend to be very tough, quite able to handle the cold with a bit of warm clothing. Mexico has some areas that are cold in winter too, because of elevation. Regardless, since most of the migrant work is in agriculture, they tend to be here in spring and fall, not so much in winter.

What we do have is a policy of treating them like valued people. During this epidemic, we require them to self-quarantine after crossing the border, but we give them enough money to do so because our food supply depends on their work. And all safety standards that apply to Canadian workers also apply to them.


My understanding is that big Canada land, not Little Canada, has a guest worker program where people in another country can apply for a guest worker visa which is good for 10 months. They then have to leave for 2 months before they can return. Those people are not crossing any border illegally, they can report any violations without risk of being fired and/or deported. They should, however, wear nice warm clothing appropriate for any cold climate, hence the reference to the touk. Yes, I know what a touk is.

As far as understanding the local language, any guest worker, any tourist, etc should at least be able to ask questions in the local language. If nothing else, after stating that they want cervesa, they should be able to ask where is the banyo.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 7157
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 5:22:14 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3078
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
Florida is not exactly hitting out of the park as far as nursing home mortality. https://www.heraldmailmedia.com/news/nation/florida-nursing-home-deaths-from-covid-19-spike-dramatically-up-to-22-at-a-single/article_8444c406-a2e3-5bef-a899-a6b675121e7b.html
Governor DeSantis seems to think this is funny and in the middle of this crisis calls his state "Gods Waiting Room". funny stuff. Tip of the iceberg as DeSantis has done everything in his power to keep these numbers secret. Luckily, the Miami Herald has been able to pry some of the information loose

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 7158
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 5:29:17 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States.


It's May 9th, and President Trump still doesn’t have an adequate national testing strategy.


Yes he does. He left it to the states/people as it is their responsibility under the tenth amendment to the US Constitution.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 7159
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 6:17:11 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 25047
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.


I think both RangerJoe and witqs cold do to use some examples of how leaving it all to the States has helped, rather than a Federally mandated mitigation program implemented early.

You're both just shooting digs at NY and not actually talking about the issue, which is a bit of a problem around here. There are many tragedies in this several month period, and a lot of them could have been lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States. It's likely the lockdown could have been shorter, the cases less, deaths less and economy less affected overall if these things were tackled by the Federal Government earlier.

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


This goes through figures using IHME to show how Federally mandated mitigation could have reduced deaths in the US if the government had imposed measures earlier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html

On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.

To determine the impact of early interventions, we used growth rates in cumulative deaths calculated by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington from the date that social distancing measures were introduced until the predicted end of the epidemic, and applied them to case numbers from earlier points when such measures could hypothetically have been put into effect.


Ok. Open for insults, derogatory comments, refutations based on pure emotion and other usual non-objective tactics.

Erik,

You are the one 'shooting digs'. Fauci has said, more than once and on video, that Trump did what he asked the first time every time (including Trump not doing things Fauci asked him not to do). And that specifically includes Fauci going back on air to counter the misuse of his answer to a hypothetical question, the very one which you include here.

Your default is 'centralize everything', that you've made clear.

_____________________________


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7160
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 6:31:58 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2937
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.


I think both RangerJoe and witqs cold do to use some examples of how leaving it all to the States has helped, rather than a Federally mandated mitigation program implemented early.

You're both just shooting digs at NY and not actually talking about the issue, which is a bit of a problem around here. There are many tragedies in this several month period, and a lot of them could have been lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States. It's likely the lockdown could have been shorter, the cases less, deaths less and economy less affected overall if these things were tackled by the Federal Government earlier.

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


This goes through figures using IHME to show how Federally mandated mitigation could have reduced deaths in the US if the government had imposed measures earlier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html

On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.

To determine the impact of early interventions, we used growth rates in cumulative deaths calculated by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington from the date that social distancing measures were introduced until the predicted end of the epidemic, and applied them to case numbers from earlier points when such measures could hypothetically have been put into effect.


Ok. Open for insults, derogatory comments, refutations based on pure emotion and other usual non-objective tactics.

Erik,

You are the one 'shooting digs'. Fauci has said, more than once and on video, that Trump did what he asked the first time every time (including Trump not doing things Fauci asked him not to do). And that specifically includes Fauci going back on air to counter the misuse of his answer to a hypothetical question, the very one which you include here.

Your default is 'centralize everything', that you've made clear.


After recent events, my interest was taken with the decision making at the top levels of US government.

From this, and the recent interaction between Trump and Dr Brix, I am of the opinion that Fauci, Brix (and likely anyone else involved in the process) would say the sky is green if it kept Trump on side.

Trump's comments (well, tweets) on the subject are in the public domain.

If you read those comments as the comments of a leader that takes the situation and the advice seriously, then perhaps get your eyes tested.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 7161
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 6:32:42 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2937
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States.


It's May 9th, and President Trump still doesn’t have an adequate national testing strategy.


Yes he does. He left it to the states/people as it is their responsibility under the tenth amendment to the US Constitution.


What part (article?) of the constitution outlines the US testing strategy

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7162
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 6:35:06 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2937
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Florida is not exactly hitting out of the park as far as nursing home mortality. https://www.heraldmailmedia.com/news/nation/florida-nursing-home-deaths-from-covid-19-spike-dramatically-up-to-22-at-a-single/article_8444c406-a2e3-5bef-a899-a6b675121e7b.html
Governor DeSantis seems to think this is funny and in the middle of this crisis calls his state "Gods Waiting Room". funny stuff. Tip of the iceberg as DeSantis has done everything in his power to keep these numbers secret. Luckily, the Miami Herald has been able to pry some of the information loose



Funny, I was having a look through the Florida Department of Public Health website a few days ago.

Mind providing a summary of the article? Us Eurotrash can't access that website because of data protection.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 7163
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 6:36:11 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20001
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I saw the photos taken of the crowded NYC subway
yes, you did see a photo or two a month ago. The situation has been addressed and while not perfect is much better. Some were inconvenienced for the good of many.
The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

No, you can't make it kill no one, that's the point.

1) It will kill many no matter what. We try to influence that to minimize the death toll.
2) Any and every action we take to minimize the death toll from COVID-19 also has other consequences, and those include deaths and disease other than COVID-19. A more balanced approach with broader vision is better than a narrow, myopic approach.

Consider that NY State nursing home edict. It mandated that patients be taken in (or back in) even if they have COVID-19. Are nursing homes set up to/capable of quarantining patients in an effective manner? None I've ever seen. They don't have the facilities or the resources. But the edict went even farther. It prohibited testing those patients for COVID-19. That point alone is bombastically stupid, the edict in its entirety even more so. The consequences were many deaths, perhaps thousands, among the most vulnerable to the disease.

Was that done on purpose? Of course not. So how could something so obviously stupid be done? Because the officials in charge were thinking too narrowly and too short-sighted. They were thinking about keeping the supply of hospital beds from being overwhelmed. They blew it.

And that example shows a direct COVID-19 consequence. The consequences outside COVID-19 itself (deaths and disease from other causes brought about by actions to address COVID-19) seem utterly beyond the thinking of many officials right now. Not to mention many in the media.


I hope that the order was not done on purpose. But with some people you never know. Describe the Nazi concentration camps to them and some people will joke about them but they will not deny that is what they actually want.


I think both RangerJoe and witqs cold do to use some examples of how leaving it all to the States has helped, rather than a Federally mandated mitigation program implemented early.

You're both just shooting digs at NY and not actually talking about the issue, which is a bit of a problem around here. There are many tragedies in this several month period, and a lot of them could have been lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States. It's likely the lockdown could have been shorter, the cases less, deaths less and economy less affected overall if these things were tackled by the Federal Government earlier.

Fauci confirmed he advised a shutdown in late February. He also confirmed in an interview that there was " a lot of pushback" about shutting down at that point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860

I mean, obviously, if we had, right from the very beginning, shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then.

All of this sent Trump to Twitter in a fluster to talk about firing Fauci.

"Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large," it said. "Time to #FireFauci..."


This goes through figures using IHME to show how Federally mandated mitigation could have reduced deaths in the US if the government had imposed measures earlier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html

On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths.

To determine the impact of early interventions, we used growth rates in cumulative deaths calculated by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington from the date that social distancing measures were introduced until the predicted end of the epidemic, and applied them to case numbers from earlier points when such measures could hypothetically have been put into effect.


Ok. Open for insults, derogatory comments, refutations based on pure emotion and other usual non-objective tactics.






I, for one, would be leery of giving that kind of power to any President of the US.

In the US, there were 8 states that didn't issue mandatory stay at home orders. None of those States were in risk of their hospitals being overrun which was the primary, original goal of the lockdown. There always exist more than one way to skin a cat.

There were many other states that had lockdowns of differing severity. In each individual state you see a wide disparity among local counties and their state govts. Some counties are actually in open rebellion. Most state Govnr's don't have the legal authority.

The argument that the lockdown doesn't carry it's own deathtoll has somehow been excluded.

The decision to have a centralized mandate, would carry with it an important factor. Down the road, the economic costs of decision making during the time of the Pandemic would be distributed equally. For example, say my company has production in China that I now desire to bring back to the States. Would I pick New York, with it high tax, high cost, likely future shutdown environment, or someplace like South Dakota or Arkansas. I would only pick New York if the logistics savings or customer engagement was very concentrated there or the state plied me with tons of tax dollars/offsets or the Govt guaranteed I was immune from any future lockdown.

But if Arkansas was forced to shutdown, well then, that removes a very big decision making input.

Cap said earlier that he fears a 4 year or so economic turnaround. I think we are more like at 10 years right now, based on the 2008 economic downturn or even longer. Just to give an idea of the hideous changes that are upon us, Gov Cuomo of New York is openly questioning having brick and mortar schools. Colleges are going to be especially hard hit.

Not only are we living in the greatest medical experiment of all time, we are going to see a huge economic migration across the world. It took almost 3 generations for economic interdependencies to return to their pre WW1 pre Spanish flu levels.

May you live in interesting times.








< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/9/2020 6:40:05 PM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7164
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 6:42:10 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

lessened by an earlier Federal mandate to enforce mitigation measures and set up consistent guidelines for ALL of the States.


It's May 9th, and President Trump still doesn’t have an adequate national testing strategy.


Yes he does. He left it to the states/people as it is their responsibility under the tenth amendment to the US Constitution.


What part (article?) of the constitution outlines the US testing strategy


The 10th amendment to the US Constitution.

quote:

Tenth Amendment: Principle of Federalism through the provision of powers not granted to the federal government nor prohibited to the individual states.


What is the Tenth Amendment?

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


The Tenth Amendment Defined:
The Tenth Amendment is fairly similar to an earlier provision outlined in the Articles of Confederation which stated that each individual state shall retain sovereignty, independence, freedom, while possessing every power, right, and jurisdiction that is not expressly delegated to the greater governing body of the United States. Following the ratification of the Constitution, framers wanted a similar amendment to limit the federal government to only powers delegated, meaning the denial of implied powers.
The First Amendment is a part of the Bill of Rights, which are the first 10 Amendments to the United States Constitution and the framework to elucidate upon the freedoms of the individual. The Bill of Rights were proposed and sent to the states by the first session of the First Congress. They were later ratified on December 15, 1791.
The first 10 Amendments to the United States Constitution were introduced by James Madison as a series of legislative articles and came into effect as Constitutional Amendments following the process of ratification by three-fourths of the States on December 15, 1791.
Stipulations of the Tenth Amendment:
The Tenth Amendment was instituted in the Bill of Rights to ensure that the federal government would only exercise the powers that were stated as permissible in the Constitution. All other powers that are not directly referred to in the United States Constitution were delivered to the individual states.


https://constitution.laws.com/10th-amendment

There is more to read there as well, not to mention case law that can be looked up.

Since medical care and testing was not included in the specific powers given to the federal government, those powers were retained by the states and the people.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 7165
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 6:52:11 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3078
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
Turns out NY State is doing better than most of the country in Covid-19 deaths at long term facilities. New York seems to be in the bottom third at about 20%. Many states are at 50% or above. Whats going on there? https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/09/us/coronavirus-cases-nursing-homes-us.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage


_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7166
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 7:04:37 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9232
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
Maryland is preparing for relaxed restrictions!




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 7167
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 7:09:10 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Maryland is preparing for relaxed restrictions!





Are you implying that these would not be needed if the restrictions were not to be relaxed?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 7168
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 7:24:19 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Turns out NY State is doing better than most of the country in Covid-19 deaths at long term facilities. New York seems to be in the bottom third at about 20%. Many states are at 50% or above. Whats going on there? https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/09/us/coronavirus-cases-nursing-homes-us.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage


New York has had more deaths overall among the people not in a nursing home. These were probably the elderly and other high risk patients who stayed at home.

In Minnesota, look at the racism at play for the Covid-19 deaths:

quote:

White residents account for 34% of the state’s known cases and 65% of deaths. Black Minnesotans account for 17% of confirmed cases and 6% of deaths.

Race is unknown or missing for 33% of cases and 25% of deaths, according to the Health Department.


https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-deaths-up-24-to-558-in-covid-19-pandemic/570338221/

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 7169
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/9/2020 7:30:58 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
Should we ban driving because people might get shot?

Woman shot while driving in south Minneapolis dies
Arionna Buckanaga was wounded late Monday on Cedar Avenue. Police suspect her male companion was the shooter's target.

quote:

An 18-year-old woman who was gravely wounded in a shooting in south Minneapolis earlier this week died Friday night, police said Saturday.

Arionna Buckanaga was shot late Monday when someone fired into the car she and a male companion were in on Cedar Avenue, causing the car to veer off the road and slam into a tree near 39th Street.

The male companion, whom police suspect was the intended the target of the attack, wasn’t injured.

Buckanaga was taken to HCMC in grave condition. Members of the Police Department’s crisis response team said they were told by Buckanaga’s family that she was on life support and had no brain function in the past days.
.
.
.
On Wednesday, griends and relatives gathered in Minneapolis to pray, chant and share stories of Buckanaga.

A group of men sat in a circle, thumping on a calfskin drum and singing “to help her on her journey,” as one man said. Between songs, they invited people to sprinkle tobacco on the drum as a blessing.

As they played, a little girl walked through the crowd with a bowl of burning incense, as people leaned over and waved the swirling smoke over their bodies. Some wore face masks.

One of Buckanaga’s aunts, Rebecca, spoke at the vigil, thanking the crowd of more than 100 for coming and asking for their continued support of her family.

“This is really hard for them, and they have a long road ahead of them so they really, really need your prayers,” she said, adding the Ojibwe word for thank you: “Miigwetch.”

Another aunt, Jana Williams, said at the vigil that if Buckanaga died, it wouldn’t be in vain, as her relatives had decided to donate her organs.

“We may see her eyes looking back at us,” Williams said. “We may see her heart.”


https://www.startribune.com/woman-shot-while-driving-in-south-minneapolis-dies/570339381/

The sad part of the donating of her organs is that because of the lockdown, her organs may not be used to save other people.

The young woman left a young son.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7170
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