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RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/6/2020 11:58:39 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
My original point pertained to the Democrat official's over-the-top comment, not the article itself. So it's no surprise that's where my focus stayed....because that's what concerned me; not the article. I was in a conversation with Sammy but you apparently wanted to take it in a direction that wasn't pertinent to the original context. Sorry I didn't have any desire to go down that path. If you wish to discuss further, I'll be glad to via PM.


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


Well, actually you were replying to my re-reading of the article you'd posted. This is the statement I was responding to in the most recent post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The only issue I have is with how his opponent characterized the governor. You didn't denounce that, but I'm pretty sure you don't find it acceptable.


Here you quite clearly say you have issue with what the "opponent" said (The democratic official). You also assume for some reason that I wouldn't "find it acceptable," and implied I should be denouncing it.

Then ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I assume you're kidding here. If not, we operate on such different planes that we can't have fruitful conversations about this. If you think an allegation that a governor is willing to trade lives for profit....really?



... you go back to the insistence that we should be talking about the democratic official's statement instead of the article explaining Abbot's different positions in public and private about reopening, which prompted the democratic officials comments.

Sorry Dan, you're obviously over the line in focusing on the politics. We get it. This is a big divide all over the nation, not just in the South, and it's not just about party lines, as much as most here would like us to believe.

I'll still keep pointing these things out, but you're right on one thing; there will not be fruit.



(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6841
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 12:10:42 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4231
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
This is what mind control looks like This is Operation Mockingbird

Video 1min:36s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=HeRyrXJS0tU&feature=emb_logo



< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 5/7/2020 12:15:32 AM >


_____________________________


“Being intelligent is no guarantee against being stupid”





(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6842
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 12:21:56 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2942
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A forumite who has vigorously asserted there is no liberal bias in US media is concerned about media bias in UK because a BBC photo showed a politician when he had a better haircut?




It wasn't a photo. Did you even read the article?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

All I'll say about the second article is that once you have a 'conspiracy narrative' it is easy to find examples to fit the narrative if you look hard enough.


To be frank, I somehow doubt that two professors from the Univ. of Zurich are indulging themselves by writing articles on conspiracy narrative. However, if we write that off as two nutcase academics, here's another paper:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/1461670X.2017.1389295

quote:

This is well off-topic - happy to continue by PM.


What is it with this trend to take discussions to PM? If you want to discuss, let it be for everyone.


The point about conspiracy narratives was about the Boris Johnson story not the first article about Brexit.

Re. taking things to PM - my own view is that this is a Coronavirus thread. From my end I am trying to respect that. I don't think discussing the ins and outs of the potential bias of the BBC is relevant. I probably should never have gone there in the first place but felt the initial characterisation of the BBC as being a 'left-wing' institution/news organisation was inaccurate and was worth challenging. If you want to discuss Brexit/the BBC 'in public' I'm happy to do so in a separate thread.


The Johnstone at the cenotaph story likely was caused by human error, but I think it's telling that people think it was a deliberate act. That's the level of trust in the BBC.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

This is the kind of stupid nonsensical questions from the elite Press that I simply abhor.

The woman is a spokesman, a Press Secretary. Man I can think of a thousand and one better questions if given the opportunity to ask the spokesman of the office of the White House than this crap.

The guy asking the question is from Reuters and supposedly a journalist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc7xhIUIL3o (less than 2 minutes)

Reuters asking the Press Secretary a question. I assume he can only ask a couple of questions a month.


I detest the trend these days for having a byline where "X torches Y" or "X trashed Y" or whatever. It really is just clickbait.

At the risk of going against the grain here (oh surprise), I felt it was a legitimate question, even if a bit barbed. The US messaging on Covid-19 has been...interesting.

Let's not forget that from late Feb it went from a "hoax" to a national emergency in March.

Defensive lines for the press are fine, but I think there is a real question to be asked in what shifted the White House's thinking on this issue and why.






(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6843
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 12:27:41 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

This is what mind control looks like This is Operation Mockingbird

Video 1min:36s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=HeRyrXJS0tU&feature=emb_logo




I think it is a little bit bizarre to try and raise concerns of media manipulation by...manipulating media.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 6844
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 12:29:59 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 868
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

You know the argument about the lockdown causing secondary health problems?

I think we are there. There is anxiety breaking out all over. 8 year olds with insomnia. The moms calling in worried about their kids look like THEY need a psychiatrist. Palpitations, severe reflux with esophagitis. I am handing out omeprazole and famotidine like Christmas candies. I can't find anyone to do talk therapy so I can pass the baton a bit. The health system is suffering staggering economic losses, mostly because of loss of elective procedures. We have one medical assistant furloughed, the office RN who used to do the phone triage is farmed out to do COVID testing. Everybody wants a f'ing COVID blood test because they had a fever in January. I just want to get on sailing yacht and sail to Papaete or something...and I get seasick easy.


I can't help but keep on thinking, "Where is Milo?" This screams like ideal conditions for his business talents. Surely it wouldn't take long for his lawyers Dewey ... to get quick approval from the FDA for use of sea urchin as a vaccine. Not to mention all those Quonset huts as temporary hospital wards.

Alfred

Bloody hell Alfred - the Milo reference is awesome!

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 6845
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 12:32:07 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2942
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am not sure if this is the same small sample, but it seems working is the best chance to not catch the virus. I would assume more than 17% of people are working...

Coronavirus Update: Most NY patients are retired or unemployed, survey finds

https://abc7ny.com/health/most-ny-coronavirus-patients-are-retired-or-unemployed-survey-finds/5989875/

Hospitals in New York state say only 17 percent of recently admitted patients were working, Governor Cuomo announced on Wednesday


...in other New York City news the Mayor said New York City is too bankrupt to re-open.




I think that one of the few bits of common ground is that the demographics that are seeing the worst outcomes are the elderly and people with chronic pre-existing medical conditions. Both of whom are likely to be out of work. If anything 17% seems a little higher than I would expect.

IIRC the thing that really put the frighteners on the UK government and prompted their u-turn in policy was not the 'baseline' mortality statistics coming out of Northern Italy but the numbers of hospitalisations of working age/healthy individuals which seemed to have overwhelmed their healthcare systems.


A large percentage of Americans are too broke to retire or enjoy working and keep at it well into their 70's.

Found some data quickly:

About 19% of Americans aged 65 and older are now in the workforce, up from about 12% in 1996. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics projects that by 2026, nearly 22% of people 65 and older will be working, with those 75 and older experiencing the fastest growth rate.May 1, 2019



Yeah that seems much higher than where we are in the UK - in 2018 we had 1.2M over 65s employed and 10.6M inactive. So roughly a 10% employment rate for over 65s.


Would it be perhaps explained by the state pension system here? I don't think there's something similar in the US (but happy to be corrected if I'm wrong)?

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 6846
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 12:51:53 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4231
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
India

1.3 billion people


Coronavirus Cases:
52,987

Recovered:
15,331

Deaths:
1,785




_____________________________


“Being intelligent is no guarantee against being stupid”





(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 6847
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 12:55:14 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Sammy, your comment is what prompted me to watch the YouTube video linked by Makee. It's pretty funny and has nothing to do with misleading, baiting or manipulating the media. Were you referring to it or something else.

RE: the YouTube video: "This is extremely dangerous to our democracy."


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

This is what mind control looks like This is Operation Mockingbird

Video 1min:36s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=HeRyrXJS0tU&feature=emb_logo




I think it is a little bit bizarre to try and raise concerns of media manipulation by...manipulating media.


(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 6848
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 12:58:34 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20019
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Sammy, your comment is what prompted me to watch the YouTube video linked by Makee. It's pretty funny and has nothing to do with misleading, baiting or manipulating the media. Were you referring to it or something else.

RE: the YouTube video: "This is extremely dangerous to our democracy."


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

This is what mind control looks like This is Operation Mockingbird

Video 1min:36s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=HeRyrXJS0tU&feature=emb_logo




I think it is a little bit bizarre to try and raise concerns of media manipulation by...manipulating media.




I think all those different news channels are believe it or not owned by 1 company, so in effect they were all towing the corporate line. Sinclair?





(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6849
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 12:58:50 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4231
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
US debt is exploding because of the coronavirus. Is it near a breaking point?
1 hr ago


https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/us-debt-is-exploding-because-of-the-coronavirus-is-it-near-a-breaking-point/ar-BB13Hzmh?li=BBnbfcN


"Now, the national debt is exploding because Washington is being forced to rescue the U.S. economy from its greatest shock ever. The Treasury Department said this week it will borrow $3 trillion this quarter alone. That's nearly six times the previous record, which was set in 2008.

Still, while the national debt is scary -- it now stands at nearly $25 trillion -- now is not the time to cut back on the borrowing."


"Before the pandemic, Moody's forecast US debt would hit 100% of GDP in 2030. Now, it expects debt to stand at 128% of GDP by then. "



------------------

1 trillion seconds is 31,688 years.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 5/7/2020 1:01:49 AM >


_____________________________


“Being intelligent is no guarantee against being stupid”





(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6850
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 12:59:49 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 868
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

New York and California are infamous for having the most aggressive out of state audits.


Cuomo: Out-of-State Health Care Workers Who Came to New York to Help Now Subject to NY State Income Tax



https://legalinsurrection.com/2020/05/cuomo-health-care-workers-who-volunteered-to-help-with-covid-19-must-pay-state-income-tax/


I can say first hand this is true. Up until last year my primary residence was in Hoboken, NJ and I worked in NYC. I had a weekend/summer place in NY state, which is now my current home once I retired. They subpeoned my mobile phone records and claimed that since I made calls from NYC I must be a NY State resident. Ah - you think I might use my mobile when I was working in the city? It galls me that I pay taxes to employee people to torture me on BS when anyone with half a noodle could figure that going into the city from Hoboken made a lot more sense than commuting from Warwick, NY. I am paying a bunch of money to fight it, on general principal, even though my accountant tells me nobody wins these cases.

Rant off.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 6851
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:00:57 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am not sure if this is the same small sample, but it seems working is the best chance to not catch the virus. I would assume more than 17% of people are working...

Coronavirus Update: Most NY patients are retired or unemployed, survey finds

https://abc7ny.com/health/most-ny-coronavirus-patients-are-retired-or-unemployed-survey-finds/5989875/

Hospitals in New York state say only 17 percent of recently admitted patients were working, Governor Cuomo announced on Wednesday


...in other New York City news the Mayor said New York City is too bankrupt to re-open.




I think that one of the few bits of common ground is that the demographics that are seeing the worst outcomes are the elderly and people with chronic pre-existing medical conditions. Both of whom are likely to be out of work. If anything 17% seems a little higher than I would expect.

IIRC the thing that really put the frighteners on the UK government and prompted their u-turn in policy was not the 'baseline' mortality statistics coming out of Northern Italy but the numbers of hospitalisations of working age/healthy individuals which seemed to have overwhelmed their healthcare systems.


A large percentage of Americans are too broke to retire or enjoy working and keep at it well into their 70's.

Found some data quickly:

About 19% of Americans aged 65 and older are now in the workforce, up from about 12% in 1996. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics projects that by 2026, nearly 22% of people 65 and older will be working, with those 75 and older experiencing the fastest growth rate.May 1, 2019



Yeah that seems much higher than where we are in the UK - in 2018 we had 1.2M over 65s employed and 10.6M inactive. So roughly a 10% employment rate for over 65s.


Would it be perhaps explained by the state pension system here? I don't think there's something similar in the US (but happy to be corrected if I'm wrong)?


As far as I can tell the 'contributions based' national pension scheme is pretty similar in principle. The federal means tested scheme (SSI) seems more stringent - it involves an assessment of health/disability for over 65s that we don't have for Pension Credit in the UK. That gap may be filled by social security schemes at a state level?

I imagine the US posters will have better information of how it works.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 6852
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:02:24 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Yeah, I read it. It featured a photo with a caption reading, "Boris Johnson pictured in 2016 and again on Sunday." So I used the same phraseology. That's splitting hairs. Your reaction to the photo/video is what's interesting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


It wasn't a photo. Did you even read the article?



(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 6853
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:04:27 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Man, that's something. Good luck.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

New York and California are infamous for having the most aggressive out of state audits.


Cuomo: Out-of-State Health Care Workers Who Came to New York to Help Now Subject to NY State Income Tax



https://legalinsurrection.com/2020/05/cuomo-health-care-workers-who-volunteered-to-help-with-covid-19-must-pay-state-income-tax/


I can say first hand this is true. Up until last year my primary residence was in Hoboken, NJ and I worked in NYC. I had a weekend/summer place in NY state, which is now my current home once I retired. They subpeoned my mobile phone records and claimed that since I made calls from NYC I must be a NY State resident. Ah - you think I might use my mobile when I was working in the city? It galls me that I pay taxes to employee people to torture me on BS when anyone with half a noodle could figure that going into the city from Hoboken made a lot more sense than commuting from Warwick, NY. I am paying a bunch of money to fight it, on general principal, even though my accountant tells me nobody wins these cases.

Rant off.


(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 6854
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:07:21 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Sammy, your comment is what prompted me to watch the YouTube video linked by Makee. It's pretty funny and has nothing to do with misleading, baiting or manipulating the media. Were you referring to it or something else.

RE: the YouTube video: "This is extremely dangerous to our democracy."


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

This is what mind control looks like This is Operation Mockingbird

Video 1min:36s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=HeRyrXJS0tU&feature=emb_logo




I think it is a little bit bizarre to try and raise concerns of media manipulation by...manipulating media.




I was referring to the video. As far as I can tell the point it was trying to make was that the media is trying to manipulate, perhaps even indoctrinate, the population into a certain way of thinking. Whether that point is right or wrong, I thought it was ironic that it was trying to put that message across using the exact same methods that it was trying to criticise.


< Message edited by Sammy5IsAlive -- 5/7/2020 1:09:29 AM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6855
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:09:04 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20019
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Man, that's something. Good luck.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

New York and California are infamous for having the most aggressive out of state audits.


Cuomo: Out-of-State Health Care Workers Who Came to New York to Help Now Subject to NY State Income Tax



https://legalinsurrection.com/2020/05/cuomo-health-care-workers-who-volunteered-to-help-with-covid-19-must-pay-state-income-tax/


I can say first hand this is true. Up until last year my primary residence was in Hoboken, NJ and I worked in NYC. I had a weekend/summer place in NY state, which is now my current home once I retired. They subpeoned my mobile phone records and claimed that since I made calls from NYC I must be a NY State resident. Ah - you think I might use my mobile when I was working in the city? It galls me that I pay taxes to employee people to torture me on BS when anyone with half a noodle could figure that going into the city from Hoboken made a lot more sense than commuting from Warwick, NY. I am paying a bunch of money to fight it, on general principal, even though my accountant tells me nobody wins these cases.

Rant off.




Unfortunately, it takes years for them to stop. Don't ask me how I know.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6856
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:13:13 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
It may be a small matter, but the video is showing that the media tends to use the identical jargon/catch phrases, as though marching in lockstep; as though coordinated; as though all on the same team. This happens all the time. It happens across networks and stations. The first time I recall encountering it was when GW Bush and John Kerry faced off in the '04 election. One day, as if a light switch flipped on, every single station across the country used the phrase "gravitas." That became the buzzword. John Kerry had "gravitas" (depth) that Bush lacked. I've seen it dozens of times since then. Another that really stuck out weirdly was the sudden coordinated use of "pivot." That was during the Obama administration.

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 6857
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:13:17 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2942
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yeah, I read it. It featured a photo with a caption reading, "Boris Johnson pictured in 2016 and again on Sunday." So I used the same phraseology. That's splitting hairs. Your reaction to the photo/video is what's interesting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


It wasn't a photo. Did you even read the article?





I have no strong reaction to it one way or other, it was just the most memorable item as of recent on the BBC's content.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6858
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:19:27 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It may be a small matter, but the video is showing that the media tends to use the identical jargon/catch phrases, as though marching in lockstep; as though coordinated; as though all on the same team. This happens all the time. It happens across networks and stations. The first time I recall encountering it was when GW Bush and John Kerry faced off in the '04 election. One day, as if a light switch flipped on, every single station across the country used the phrase "gravitas." That became the buzzword. John Kerry had "gravitas" (depth) that Bush lacked. I've seen it dozens of times since then. Another that really stuck out weirdly was the sudden coordinated use of "pivot." That was during the Obama administration.


That's how politics works though. You try and set the language and parameters of debate. If you do it well the media start picking up on your cues and repeating them. If you mess it up you end up with Clinton and her 'deplorables'. Or with Kerry you get the buzzword out there but it doesn't ring true with the public's perception.

This isn't something new.

< Message edited by Sammy5IsAlive -- 5/7/2020 1:21:35 AM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6859
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:19:47 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2942
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It may be a small matter, but the video is showing that the media tends to use the identical jargon/catch phrases, as though marching in lockstep; as though coordinated; as though all on the same team. This happens all the time. It happens across networks and stations. The first time I recall encountering it was when GW Bush and John Kerry faced off in the '04 election. One day, as if a light switch flipped on, every single station across the country used the phrase "gravitas." That became the buzzword. John Kerry had "gravitas" (depth) that Bush lacked. I've seen it dozens of times since then. Another that really stuck out weirdly was the sudden coordinated use of "pivot." That was during the Obama administration.


It is an increasing trend to try and distill your messaging into key words and phrases to enhance reach.

My personal favourite was the ACA described as a "government takeover".

More recently, the winner has to be reducing complex international negotiations and legislation down to three words: "Get Brexit Done"

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6860
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:21:12 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
It was new to me when I encountered it in 2004. Since then its basically always used positively for one side and negatively to another. So it has significance, to my way of thinking.

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 6861
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:35:01 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8504
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am not sure if this is the same small sample, but it seems working is the best chance to not catch the virus. I would assume more than 17% of people are working...

Coronavirus Update: Most NY patients are retired or unemployed, survey finds

https://abc7ny.com/health/most-ny-coronavirus-patients-are-retired-or-unemployed-survey-finds/5989875/

Hospitals in New York state say only 17 percent of recently admitted patients were working, Governor Cuomo announced on Wednesday


...in other New York City news the Mayor said New York City is too bankrupt to re-open.




I think that one of the few bits of common ground is that the demographics that are seeing the worst outcomes are the elderly and people with chronic pre-existing medical conditions. Both of whom are likely to be out of work. If anything 17% seems a little higher than I would expect.

IIRC the thing that really put the frighteners on the UK government and prompted their u-turn in policy was not the 'baseline' mortality statistics coming out of Northern Italy but the numbers of hospitalisations of working age/healthy individuals which seemed to have overwhelmed their healthcare systems.


A large percentage of Americans are too broke to retire or enjoy working and keep at it well into their 70's.

Found some data quickly:

About 19% of Americans aged 65 and older are now in the workforce, up from about 12% in 1996. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics projects that by 2026, nearly 22% of people 65 and older will be working, with those 75 and older experiencing the fastest growth rate.May 1, 2019



Yeah that seems much higher than where we are in the UK - in 2018 we had 1.2M over 65s employed and 10.6M inactive. So roughly a 10% employment rate for over 65s.


Would it be perhaps explained by the state pension system here? I don't think there's something similar in the US (but happy to be corrected if I'm wrong)?


As far as I can tell the 'contributions based' national pension scheme is pretty similar in principle. The federal means tested scheme (SSI) seems more stringent - it involves an assessment of health/disability for over 65s that we don't have for Pension Credit in the UK. That gap may be filled by social security schemes at a state level?

I imagine the US posters will have better information of how it works.


SSI is based upon disability and need. If you get more money in than the SSI will pay, you are not eligible for SSI. I understand that SSI will not pay for drug and alcohol addiction itself.

RSDI is disability based upon inability to work and what you paid in FICA taxes. The FICA tax is a general revenue tax, it goes into the general revenue fund.

Social Security payments are a gratuity paid by a grateful nation.

Edited for:

quote:

The income tax on employees is to be collected by the employer, who is to deduct the amount from the wages "as and when paid". Section 802 (a). He is indemnified against claims and demands of any person by reason of such payment. Ibid. The proceeds of both taxes are to be paid into the Treasury like internal-revenue taxes generally, and are not earmarked in any way.
.
.
.
The argument for petitioners is that the tax moneys are not earmarked, and that Congress is at liberty to spend them as it will. The usual separability clause is embodied in the act. Section 1103.


https://www.ssa.gov/history/supreme1.html

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 5/7/2020 1:51:31 AM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 6862
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:35:57 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20019
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It was new to me when I encountered it in 2004. Since then its basically always used positively for one side and negatively to another. So it has significance, to my way of thinking.



Actually, it was the 2000 election that gravitas was used like that.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/7/2020 1:36:07 AM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6863
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:36:49 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Ah, thanks.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 6864
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:42:33 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20019
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Pretty harsh opinion article on Nursing Homes in NY.

This nursing home disaster is on you, Gov. Cuomo: Goodwin

https://nypost.com/2020/05/05/this-nursing-home-disaster-is-on-you-gov-cuomo-goodwin/

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6865
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:57:15 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20019
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Take this with a huge grain of salt, but it is an interesting discussion of Ferguson's model. I have heard from other sources the modeling software was very weak and a form of it was on github for a while.

Code Review of Ferguson’s Model

https://lockdownsceptics.org/code-review-of-fergusons-model/

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6866
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 1:58:26 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
I've barely followed this story until today. Looks grim. Did the governor have options or were his hands basically tied? Did the severity of the outbreak leave him no good choices?

I don't know much about Cuomo, but I'd assume any governor is trying to do his best under difficult circumstances.


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 6867
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 2:00:53 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20019
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've barely followed this story until today. Looks grim. Did the governor have options or were his hands basically tied? Did the severity of the outbreak leave him no good choices?

I don't know much about Cuomo, but I'd assume any governor is trying to do his best under difficult circumstances.




My best guess is to say it never really reached Cuomo, a decision was made down the line probably to save money as nursing homes cost less than hospitals.

You probably could count on one hand the state administered nursing homes that could safely handle positive covid patients.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6868
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 2:15:24 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8504
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Pretty harsh opinion article on Nursing Homes in NY.

This nursing home disaster is on you, Gov. Cuomo: Goodwin

https://nypost.com/2020/05/05/this-nursing-home-disaster-is-on-you-gov-cuomo-goodwin/


I wonder how many lawsuits there will be. Or ADA violations lodged with the US Department of Justice. Or both.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 6869
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/7/2020 2:21:13 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8504
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've barely followed this story until today. Looks grim. Did the governor have options or were his hands basically tied? Did the severity of the outbreak leave him no good choices?

I don't know much about Cuomo, but I'd assume any governor is trying to do his best under difficult circumstances.




My best guess is to say it never really reached Cuomo, a decision was made down the line probably to save money as nursing homes cost less than hospitals.

You probably could count on one hand the state administered nursing homes that could safely handle positive covid patients.


Harry S Truman had a sign on his desk "The buck stops here" and maybe some people need to remember that.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 6870
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