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RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 12:41:40 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2942
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

We are going to get limited insights into the reality of racism in America from a demographic that is predominantly made up of older white, male and middle class.

Amusingly enough, that tends to be the exact same demographic that has the least exposure to racism and discrimination.

What a surprise, looking at some of the contributions



In case you are talking to me, my Dad was a octoroon. And I am more than happy to talk "racism in America" or anything thing else, but not in a "Iam right and you are wrong" format.


Not in particular.

I'm doubtful that we'll get much in the way of direct lived experience of the subject from anyone, at which point it's just going to be a thread, on a forum, for a game played by predominantly white, middle class men talking about what they think racism is, how it isn't actually a problem any more and things are fine now!




quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If we manage to get even limited insight, that'll still be immeasurably more than we'll get from a select few.


Well, I'm managing expectations on insights in this matter.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 6301
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 12:43:48 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2942
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If we manage to get even limited insight, that'll still be immeasurably more than we'll get from a select few.


I admit that I am a racist. No matter what my kittens think, I believe that the HUMAN race has priority over all other races. No matter that I wake up during the night to tap my kidneys, I will NOT open up a container of moist food for them.


In which case you'd be speciesist, not racist.

Oh, wait, you blocked me. Shame, you could of learned something there. Your loss!

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6302
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 12:43:54 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8532
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online
Horowitz: Minnesota has more COVID-19 deaths than non-lockdown neighbors, more unemployment than New York
Daniel Horowitz · April 29, 2020

quote:

Imagine taking a non-hot spot for coronavirus, locking down the people, achieving a worse outcome than surrounding states that didn’t lock down, and then suffering worse unemployment from the lockdown than New York. Welcome to Minnesota Governor Tim Walz’s lockdown magic.

Minnesota is surrounded on three sides by some of the few states in the country that did not formally issue a shelter-in-place order at any time during this crisis. According to the dictates of the lockdown crowd, these states should have been smoldering ash, given their reluctance to do what the “experts” tell us is the best and only way to prevent mass deaths from the virus. Well, it turns out the states that didn’t lock down had low fatality rates, some of them especially low.

Here are the deaths per million people as of yesterday, according to Worldometer:

Wyoming: 12

Utah: 13

South Dakota: 13

Arkansas: 17

North Dakota: 25

Nebraska: 29

Iowa: 43

Most of these seven states are at or near the bottom in terms of death rates per million people.

Minnesota is surrounded by Iowa to its south and the Dakotas to the west. Unlike Iowa and the Dakotas, Minnesota went full lockdown, ordered by Tim Walz. In the end, the fatality rate per million people of 54 was still relatively low compared to most states in the northeast, but higher than the surrounding states that did not issue lockdown orders. This demonstrates that given the demographics and geography of the upper Midwest states, there was no reason whatsoever for Walz not to follow in the footsteps of his neighbors.
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Latest

Absolutely Wrong Horowitz: States can declare martial law on citizens but can’t stop noncitizens from voting
Medical Collapse Horowitz: Lockdown is killing more patients than the coronavirus
Stop This Now Horowitz: The data is in: The lockdown was wrong on all levels
LOCKDOWN Horowitz: New study: 2.1% of the population will suffer an average 9.7 years lost due to lockdown trauma, mental health problems
UGH Horowitz: Minnesota has more COVID-19 deaths than non-lockdown neighbors, more unemployment than New York

Absolutely Wrong Horowitz: States can declare martial law on citizens but can’t stop noncitizens from voting
Medical Collapse Horowitz: Lockdown is killing more patients than the coronavirus
Stop This Now Horowitz: The data is in: The lockdown was wrong on all levels
LOCKDOWN Horowitz: New study: 2.1% of the population will suffer an average 9.7 years lost due to lockdown trauma, mental health problems
UGH Horowitz: Minnesota has more COVID-19 deaths than non-lockdown neighbors, more unemployment than New York

Absolutely Wrong Horowitz: States can declare martial law on citizens but can’t stop noncitizens from voting
Medical Collapse Horowitz: Lockdown is killing more patients than the coronavirus
Stop This Now Horowitz: The data is in: The lockdown was wrong on all levels
LOCKDOWN Horowitz: New study: 2.1% of the population will suffer an average 9.7 years lost due to lockdown trauma, mental health problems
UGH Horowitz: Minnesota has more COVID-19 deaths than non-lockdown neighbors, more unemployment than New York

Horowitz: Minnesota has more COVID-19 deaths than non-lockdown neighbors, more unemployment than New York
Daniel Horowitz · April 29, 2020
Font Size A A A
Minnesota sign
AndreyKrav | Getty Images

Imagine taking a non-hot spot for coronavirus, locking down the people, achieving a worse outcome than surrounding states that didn’t lock down, and then suffering worse unemployment from the lockdown than New York. Welcome to Minnesota Governor Tim Walz’s lockdown magic.

Minnesota is surrounded on three sides by some of the few states in the country that did not formally issue a shelter-in-place order at any time during this crisis. According to the dictates of the lockdown crowd, these states should have been smoldering ash, given their reluctance to do what the “experts” tell us is the best and only way to prevent mass deaths from the virus. Well, it turns out the states that didn’t lock down had low fatality rates, some of them especially low.

Here are the deaths per million people as of yesterday, according to Worldometer:

Wyoming: 12

Utah: 13

South Dakota: 13

Arkansas: 17

North Dakota: 25

Nebraska: 29

Iowa: 43

Most of these seven states are at or near the bottom in terms of death rates per million people.

Minnesota is surrounded by Iowa to its south and the Dakotas to the west. Unlike Iowa and the Dakotas, Minnesota went full lockdown, ordered by Tim Walz. In the end, the fatality rate per million people of 54 was still relatively low compared to most states in the northeast, but higher than the surrounding states that did not issue lockdown orders. This demonstrates that given the demographics and geography of the upper Midwest states, there was no reason whatsoever for Walz not to follow in the footsteps of his neighbors.

In fact, Walz joined the media’s pile-on against the other governors in the region.

“I do worry about that,” Walz said on April 8, according to Twincities.com, adding that he had communicated with officials in Iowa, North Dakota, and South Dakota. “It’s probably only a matter of time before they issue those, too.”

Well, look who has egg on his face now.

Walz is a big proponent of lockdown. “I think most of these retailers and businesses understand they’re going to have to change the way business is being done for about the next 18 months,” said Walz last week.

Despite just 300 statewide deaths, Minneapolis is actually tightening, not loosening restrictions. According to the Star-Tribune, the state is now “removing or blocking basketball rims, removing tennis and volleyball nets, and posting signs notifying park visitors that soccer fields, playgrounds and skate parks are closed.”

Sure, shutting down outdoor activities for predominantly young people makes a lot of sense when studies show nearly no transmissions outdoors and when not a single person under 40 years of age and very few under 65 died in Minnesota.
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Minnesota didn’t accomplish anything in terms of saving more lives, what did it accomplish? A worse unemployment rate than even New York. In recent weeks, 16 percent of Minnesota’s workforce filed unemployment claims, placing the state squarely in the top half of state workforces hit by the shutdown. That is just ahead of New York’s 14.6 percent. Remember that Minnesota had just over 300 deaths. Such disruption is much less justifiable than New York’s shutdown.
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Not only will more people die from the lockdown and unemployment, but thanks to the severe lockdown and the ensuing panic that it has driven, the Mayo Clinic, one of the most important employers in the state, was forced to furlough 40 percent of its workforce. Aside from the state and federal government, hospital systems are the top employers in the state. The fact that they have taken a greater hit than anyone else demonstrates the perfidious circular logic of shutting down elective procedures in order to stop a supposed overrun of hospitals in a state with 300 COVID-19 deaths.

What is particularly jarring about Minnesota is that three-quarters of the fatalities were in long-term care homes. That is 77 percent of 300 deaths. Thus, rather than focusing 100 percent of his resources on securing nursing homes, he cast a wide net on constitutional rights and accomplished nothing other than destroying his state’s economy.

Good job, Gov. Walz. You and your advisers will still collect your paychecks for creating a “cure” worse than the illness.


https://www.conservativereview.com/news/horowitz-minnesota-covid-19-deaths-non-lockdown-neighbors-unemployment-new-york/

The Mayo Clinic is known worldwide for its level of medical care. What may not be known is that there are about NINE eligible women for every ONE eligible man in that area . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6303
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 12:50:22 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4231
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

What do nursing homes, veteran's homes and indigenous Amazonian tribes have in common?




A degree of isolation.

Therefore infection rates in the normal places has to be a lot higher than they are saying.


Just some Kentucky Windage analysis.

_____________________________


“Being intelligent is no guarantee against being stupid”





(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 6304
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 12:51:50 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8532
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Well, from that standpoint, I admit I'm not a cat person. I tolerate them, because wife and youngest son love them. But a good dog is so much more preferable, in my very personal opinion that is not meant as a suggestion that any other person's way of doing things is right or wrong. (Geez, we need to qualify everything to mollify the perpetually offended.)


I like dogs too. But I live in an apartment, kittens use a litter box - which makes them better than babies in that regard - and I am not always capable of going outside with a dog and then cleaning up the mess. I have posted a picture of my right foot before (just ask Zorch) but I have other issues as well.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6305
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 12:56:20 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4231
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


What is particularly jarring about Minnesota is that three-quarters of the fatalities were in long-term care homes. That is 77 percent of 300 deaths.





So.... NONSTOP, NO LAYOVER from Wuhan China to Minnesota long-term care homes.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 5/1/2020 1:00:48 AM >


_____________________________


“Being intelligent is no guarantee against being stupid”





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Post #: 6306
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 1:05:41 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8532
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

What is particularly jarring about Minnesota is that three-quarters of the fatalities were in long-term care homes. That is 77 percent of 300 deaths.


So.... NONSTOP, NO LAYOVER from Wuhan China to Minnesota long-term care homes.


I think that, from the beginning, the staff and such patients that could wear them, should have worn masks. That might have reduced the numbers. Of course, with the kind of winter weather that Minnesota has it would not have been possible to have a nice, fresh air flow in the building. In fact, the winter air in Minnesota and other such cold climes when it comes inside and warms up is actually drier than the air in the Sahara Desert.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 6307
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 1:31:25 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Ranger Joe, I hope my comment about canines and felines was sufficiently clear that you didn't think my "perpetually offended" caveat was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was aimed at the perpetually offended.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6308
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 1:38:17 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8532
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Ranger Joe, I hope my comment about canines and felines was sufficiently clear that you didn't think my "perpetually offended" caveat was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was aimed at the perpetually offended.


I know that it was not aimed at me. I just would have difficulties taking care of a dog at times. Especially if I were to be gone all day, or overnight or two for a medical procedure. Of course, I would want pictures for Zorch to prove that was not full of it . . .

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 5/1/2020 2:19:01 AM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6309
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 1:51:50 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Yes, I remember the image of your foot. Ouch.

Your foot and Terminus's toe are famous (have you been around long enough to recall his toe icon?; for that matter, do you remember Terminus?).

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6310
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 2:15:37 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8532
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes, I remember the image of your foot. Ouch.

Your foot and Terminus's toe are famous (have you been around long enough to recall his toe icon?; for that matter, do you remember Terminus?).


No, I don't recall that toe icon.

As far as my right foot, you only saw the outside. You did not see the bone spurs nor how the bones are supposed to go straight but do not. But as far as the foot goes, I can think of worse places to get melanoma.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6311
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 4:06:24 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 25056
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Actually, there is considerable innovation over insulins. I don't think the poorest countries in the world use cadavaric human insulin any more.

Humalog is "Lispro" (substitution of a Lysine for a Proline). It's completely synthetic. The recent "basal insulins" (with extremely long half lives) have greatly improved management. Does Humalog cost "too much"? Is the Pope Catholic?


So why are they so cheap in Canada and other countries?


This is not necessarily the case with any particular drug, but in general US consumers are shouldering the costs of development. Many other countries have legally mandated lower prices, and since the US is still paying enough to cover development costs, new drugs do continue to get developed.

_____________________________


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Post #: 6312
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 4:06:28 AM   
durnedwolf


Posts: 862
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Ranger Joe, I hope my comment about canines and felines was sufficiently clear that you didn't think my "perpetually offended" caveat was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was aimed at the perpetually offended.


Ha!

I'm perplexed by your "perpetually offended" post. Speak your mind, good Sir; we want names and identifications so we might better use inoffensive language when addressing the forever offended formites.

It's just good manners - right?


_____________________________


DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6313
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 6:11:06 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15699
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
. If you don't recognise the discriminatory history of the US in regard to black and brown Americans, the civil rights movement and the existing legacy of those institutions then it'll be hard to discuss this on the same plane.


Keyword: HISTORY as in ancient history.

Institutionalized Racism simply does not exist anymore.

Every Institution in the US has been providing special treatment to people of color and discriminating against non-people of color for somewhere around thirty years now in a misguided attempt to redress PAST discrimination.

There is no institution in the US today that could even dream of getting away with racist treatment of people of color.

That Institutionalized Racism exists in America today is a leftist fabrication.

Sooner or later you are going to have to step outside of that bubble you are living in.



I believed that was the case until the last five years or so when phone cameras and body cameras revealed how some policemen/policewomen were treating people of colour. What made it institutional was that the "investigations" almost always cleared the officers when the video clearly showed they were over-reacting to minor infractions or ready to respond with deadly force because the individual was a person of colour. Even a guy on his knees, hands up holding up his cell phone was shot. I can't say how widespread the problem is but it came up with alarming regularity for a while.

There are also many reports of unequal sentencing by judges which appears to be related to the race of the person convicted. These were all people who had no prior record to explain the difference in sentencing. Not all judges do this, but if some do - isn't that institutional?

So bubbles seem to exist on all sides ...




Attachment (1)

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 6314
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 7:21:10 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've spent the better part of an hour trying for the right way of saying I disagree with a number of posts today from both ends of the political spectrum. I haven't solved the Gordian knot and have erased every effort thus far. Suffice to say race shouldn't play a part in how we look at every single thing, always dividing rather than bringing together. We Americans are sharply divided on many issues, and with cause, but all parties of good faith are welcome at the table of discussion. None should be asked to leave.


As I've stated this all had do with a post about how some hospitals and medical facitilities are struggling with the lack of income and extra costs associated with the pandemic, and how that has hit and may continue to hit less privileged communities more. Potentially with consequences as big as hospitals closing.

https://www.ft.com/content/3bbb4f7c-890e-11ea-a01c-a28a3e3fbd33

Others picked up on this area in the quote I picked out ...

---------------

Initial data suggests the disease has had a disproportionate impact on communities of colour. In New York, black and Latino people are twice as likely to die as white people. At One Brooklyn, the group has seen a high rate of hospitalisation among its coronavirus-positive patients. “Our community has been very significantly affected,” says Brown. “There is a reality that many of the hospitals that serve low-income communities of colour have the least amount of resources . . . Any public health crisis will uncover inequalities.”

... and ran with that for a while, and it's actually been interesting to work through that discussion. We don't need to shy away from race if all are okay with discussing their position on it in relation to these issues, but I think where we have failed occasionally is to stay relevant to the issues at hand.

Some of my posts have diverged in order to clarify that privilege and race are factors in relation to this discussion. I was particularly impressed with some forumites' personnal experiences around race, regardless of some initial flippant comments that came out. (Thanks Hans, MakeeLearn and RangerJoe)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Some of those questions mean that some people struggle to get ahead that much harder than others, regardless of intent, inspiration, gratitude or opportunity.

That also has some effect on access to health care, education about nutrition, financial access to higher quality food and lifestyle, and other factors both cultural and economical that could be having an effect on the disproportionate number of black and brown people in the US (and elsewhere, like the UK) suffering and dying from this pandemic.


I have noticed that many of your comments seem directed at people without responding to them particularly by quoting posts or naming those people. You have also made many posts that seem very off-topic and lead to more "opinion shaming" in spite of your comment that "all parties of good faith are welcome at the table of discussion. None should be asked to leave."

You started this sentence with "We Americans" but I'm sure you don't mean only Americans have "good faith" or are "welcome at the table." Good faith seems difficult to define in this context where you admit there are sharp divisions.

Some examples from today:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If we manage to get even limited insight, that'll still be immeasurably more than we'll get from a select few.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
(Geez, we need to qualify everything to mollify the perpetually offended.)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Ranger Joe, I hope my comment about canines and felines was sufficiently clear that you didn't think my "perpetually offended" caveat was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was aimed at the perpetually offended.


Is everyone "welcome at the table, really?"

< Message edited by obvert -- 5/1/2020 9:45:57 AM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6315
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 7:28:06 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
The economy has had a bit of a rebound in the financial markets. Will that translate to employment figures picking up when reopening gradually increases opportunities for businesses to pick up where they left off?



https://www.ft.com/content/88e57ec9-42d4-455d-a045-293a6a54837d

Stock markets have notched up healthy gains in April despite the grim performances of national economies, pushing the FTSE All World index of global stocks to its best month since 2011. UK blue-chips briefly entered a bull market this week, up more than 20 per cent from their recent lows.

Some investors have expressed doubts about whether the rallies have further to run, but are reluctant to bet against the massive interventions by central banks and governments around the world.

“This rally in equities is clearly not driven by fundamentals — it’s driven by the liquidity support from the Federal Reserve,” said Torsten Slok, chief economist at Deutsche Bank Securities. “Companies are getting cash to keep the lights on through the significant support to credit markets.”

-----------------

“The rollout of an effective Covid-19 treatment could contribute to a sustainable end to lockdowns, improve consumer confidence, and boost the global economy and markets,” said Mark Haefele, chief investment officer for UBS Global Wealth Management.

In addition, expectations for economic growth and corporate health are already so low that even the release of dire data and corporate profits are not enough to foster disappointment. “Earnings are dreadful, but we know that,” said Mr Riley at BlueBay.

Still, deep concerns persist. US companies’ earnings are set to drop 16 per cent in the first quarter, according to Credit Suisse estimates, and may not fully recover for years. The US economy is also facing a sharp contraction, with 26m Americans losing their jobs in the past five weeks.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6316
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 9:21:37 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
You didn't do this on purpose, but in your lengthy post with quotes attributed and unattributed, readers will assume that I'm the author of unattributed quotes embedded amongst quotes attributed to me. Please make your posts accurate and clear.


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've spent the better part of an hour trying for the right way of saying I disagree with a number of posts today from both ends of the political spectrum. I haven't solved the Gordian knot and have erased every effort thus far. Suffice to say race shouldn't play a part in how we look at every single thing, always dividing rather than bringing together. We Americans are sharply divided on many issues, and with cause, but all parties of good faith are welcome at the table of discussion. None should be asked to leave.


As I've stated this all had do with a post about how some hospitals and medical facitilities are struggling with the lack of income and extra costs associated with the pandemic, and how that has hit and may continue to hit less privileged communities more. Potentially with consequences as big as hospitals closing.

https://www.ft.com/content/3bbb4f7c-890e-11ea-a01c-a28a3e3fbd33

Others picked up on this area in the quote I picked out ...

---------------

Initial data suggests the disease has had a disproportionate impact on communities of colour. In New York, black and Latino people are twice as likely to die as white people. At One Brooklyn, the group has seen a high rate of hospitalisation among its coronavirus-positive patients. “Our community has been very significantly affected,” says Brown. “There is a reality that many of the hospitals that serve low-income communities of colour have the least amount of resources . . . Any public health crisis will uncover inequalities.”

... and ran with that for a while, and it's actually been interesting to work through that discussion. We don't need to shy away from race if all are okay with discussing their position on it in relation to these issues, but I think where we have failed occasionally is to stay relevant to the issues at hand.

Some of my posts have diverged in order to clarify that privilege and race are factors in relation to this discussion. I was particularly impressed with some forumites' personnal experiences around race, regardless or some initial flippant comments that came out. (Thanks Hans, MakeeLearn and RangerJoe)

quote:

Some of those questions mean that some people struggle to get ahead that much harder than others, regardless of intent, inspiration, gratitude or opportunity.

That also has some effect on access to health care, education about nutrition, financial access to higher quality food and lifestyle, and other factors both cultural and economical that could be having an effect on the disproportionate number of black and brown people in the US (and elsewhere, like the UK) suffering and dying from this pandemic.


I have noticed the many of your comments seem directed at people without responding to them particularly by quoting posts or naming those people. You have also made many posts that seem very off-topic and lead to more "opinion shaming" in spite of your comment that "all parties of good faith are welcome at the table of discussion. None should be asked to leave."

Or did you only mean "all Americans?"

Some examples from today:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If we manage to get even limited insight, that'll still be immeasurably more than we'll get from a select few.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
(Geez, we need to qualify everything to mollify the perpetually offended.)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Ranger Joe, I hope my comment about canines and felines was sufficiently clear that you didn't think my "perpetually offended" caveat was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was aimed at the perpetually offended.


Is everyone "welcome at the table, really?"


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6317
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 9:23:25 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Is everyone "welcome at the table, really?"


Like I said, all people of good faith. That covers just about everyone.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6318
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 9:35:14 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Is everyone "welcome at the table, really?"


Like I said, all people of good faith. That covers just about everyone.


Who does it not cover? Who isn't "welcome at the table" that you seem to have some control over.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6319
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 9:37:22 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
Brazil has reported a record 7,218 confirmed cases of new coronavirus in the last 24 hours, raising the total to 85,380 cases, the Health Ministry said on Thursday.

Not good. This part of the curve is looking very steep.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 5/1/2020 9:43:10 AM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6320
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 11:09:23 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8532
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

You didn't do this on purpose, but in your lengthy post with quotes attributed and unattributed, readers will assume that I'm the author of unattributed quotes embedded amongst quotes attributed to me. Please make your posts accurate and clear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've spent the better part of an hour trying for the right way of saying I disagree with a number of posts today from both ends of the political spectrum. I haven't solved the Gordian knot and have erased every effort thus far. Suffice to say race shouldn't play a part in how we look at every single thing, always dividing rather than bringing together. We Americans are sharply divided on many issues, and with cause, but all parties of good faith are welcome at the table of discussion. None should be asked to leave.


As I've stated this all had do with a post about how some hospitals and medical facitilities are struggling with the lack of income and extra costs associated with the pandemic, and how that has hit and may continue to hit less privileged communities more. Potentially with consequences as big as hospitals closing.

https://www.ft.com/content/3bbb4f7c-890e-11ea-a01c-a28a3e3fbd33

Others picked up on this area in the quote I picked out ...

---------------

Initial data suggests the disease has had a disproportionate impact on communities of colour. In New York, black and Latino people are twice as likely to die as white people. At One Brooklyn, the group has seen a high rate of hospitalisation among its coronavirus-positive patients. “Our community has been very significantly affected,” says Brown. “There is a reality that many of the hospitals that serve low-income communities of colour have the least amount of resources . . . Any public health crisis will uncover inequalities.”

... and ran with that for a while, and it's actually been interesting to work through that discussion. We don't need to shy away from race if all are okay with discussing their position on it in relation to these issues, but I think where we have failed occasionally is to stay relevant to the issues at hand.

Some of my posts have diverged in order to clarify that privilege and race are factors in relation to this discussion. I was particularly impressed with some forumites' personnal experiences around race, regardless or some initial flippant comments that came out. (Thanks Hans, MakeeLearn and RangerJoe)

What remark or remarks did I make that was flippant?

quote:

Some of those questions mean that some people struggle to get ahead that much harder than others, regardless of intent, inspiration, gratitude or opportunity.

That also has some effect on access to health care, education about nutrition, financial access to higher quality food and lifestyle, and other factors both cultural and economical that could be having an effect on the disproportionate number of black and brown people in the US (and elsewhere, like the UK) suffering and dying from this pandemic.


I have noticed the many of your comments seem directed at people without responding to them particularly by quoting posts or naming those people. You have also made many posts that seem very off-topic and lead to more "opinion shaming" in spite of your comment that "all parties of good faith are welcome at the table of discussion. None should be asked to leave."

Or did you only mean "all Americans?"

Some examples from today:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If we manage to get even limited insight, that'll still be immeasurably more than we'll get from a select few.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
(Geez, we need to qualify everything to mollify the perpetually offended.)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Ranger Joe, I hope my comment about canines and felines was sufficiently clear that you didn't think my "perpetually offended" caveat was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was aimed at the perpetually offended.


Is everyone "welcome at the table, really?"


I ask again, and please be specific, "What remark or remarks did I make that was flippant?"

I say that everyone is welcome at the table. If I don't care for your attitude or remarks, I will ignore you.

As far as healthcare outcomes, high blood pressure has been proven to start in children. I could even point out the baseball player whose records helped to prove this. That may be genetic but it could also be diet related. That can be socioeconomic but it could also be cultural.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6321
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 11:11:02 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8532
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The economy has had a bit of a rebound in the financial markets. Will that translate to employment figures picking up when reopening gradually increases opportunities for businesses to pick up where they left off?

https://www.ft.com/content/88e57ec9-42d4-455d-a045-293a6a54837d

Stock markets have notched up healthy gains in April despite the grim performances of national economies, pushing the FTSE All World index of global stocks to its best month since 2011. UK blue-chips briefly entered a bull market this week, up more than 20 per cent from their recent lows.

Some investors have expressed doubts about whether the rallies have further to run, but are reluctant to bet against the massive interventions by central banks and governments around the world.

“This rally in equities is clearly not driven by fundamentals — it’s driven by the liquidity support from the Federal Reserve,” said Torsten Slok, chief economist at Deutsche Bank Securities. “Companies are getting cash to keep the lights on through the significant support to credit markets.”

-----------------

“The rollout of an effective Covid-19 treatment could contribute to a sustainable end to lockdowns, improve consumer confidence, and boost the global economy and markets,” said Mark Haefele, chief investment officer for UBS Global Wealth Management.

In addition, expectations for economic growth and corporate health are already so low that even the release of dire data and corporate profits are not enough to foster disappointment. “Earnings are dreadful, but we know that,” said Mr Riley at BlueBay.

Still, deep concerns persist. US companies’ earnings are set to drop 16 per cent in the first quarter, according to Credit Suisse estimates, and may not fully recover for years. The US economy is also facing a sharp contraction, with 26m Americans losing their jobs in the past five weeks.





That refers to big business but not the smaller business. I posted something about that yesterday.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6322
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 11:18:11 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8532
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
. If you don't recognise the discriminatory history of the US in regard to black and brown Americans, the civil rights movement and the existing legacy of those institutions then it'll be hard to discuss this on the same plane.


Keyword: HISTORY as in ancient history.

Institutionalized Racism simply does not exist anymore.

Every Institution in the US has been providing special treatment to people of color and discriminating against non-people of color for somewhere around thirty years now in a misguided attempt to redress PAST discrimination.

There is no institution in the US today that could even dream of getting away with racist treatment of people of color.

That Institutionalized Racism exists in America today is a leftist fabrication.

Sooner or later you are going to have to step outside of that bubble you are living in.



I believed that was the case until the last five years or so when phone cameras and body cameras revealed how some policemen/policewomen were treating people of colour. What made it institutional was that the "investigations" almost always cleared the officers when the video clearly showed they were over-reacting to minor infractions or ready to respond with deadly force because the individual was a person of colour. Even a guy on his knees, hands up holding up his cell phone was shot. I can't say how widespread the problem is but it came up with alarming regularity for a while.

There are also many reports of unequal sentencing by judges which appears to be related to the race of the person convicted. These were all people who had no prior record to explain the difference in sentencing. Not all judges do this, but if some do - isn't that institutional?

So bubbles seem to exist on all sides ...





I know of a judge who stated in court that he does not like the law so he does not follow it. He also stated that he does not like the case law so he does not go by it. All of the people involved are/were people of colour since they are/were not transparent.

I also know of a person whose ancestors came from Europe who was pepper sprayed by a police officer when he was not violent nor committing a criminal act. He was were he was allowed to be as well.

As far as the videos of incidents as well as other incidents reported in the media, you do not know the whole story. When that comes out, the situation can actually be pretty different. That said, there are always bullies.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 6323
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 11:21:47 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8532
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Ranger Joe, I hope my comment about canines and felines was sufficiently clear that you didn't think my "perpetually offended" caveat was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was aimed at the perpetually offended.


Ha!

I'm perplexed by your "perpetually offended" post. Speak your mind, good Sir; we want names and identifications so we might better use inoffensive language when addressing the forever offended formites.

It's just good manners - right?


If people get offended by my language, which language should I use? What translation program/source is recommended?

I need to get a shirt like this, who else wants one:






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to durnedwolf)
Post #: 6324
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 11:23:16 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


I ask again, and please be specific, "What remark or remarks did I make that was flippant?"

I say that everyone is welcome at the table. If I don't care for your attitude or remarks, I will ignore you.

As far as healthcare outcomes, high blood pressure has been proven to start in children. I could even point out the baseball player whose records helped to prove this. That may be genetic but it could also be diet related. That can be socioeconomic but it could also be cultural.


I wasn't not referring to any remark you made, but rather to ones like this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Oh Sweet Baby Jesus! Here it comes. COVID-19 is a racist. America is racist. Healthcare funding is racist. The virus STARTED in an Asian country. In Wuhan 99.9% of the victims were "coloured". It smashed into Queens. Guess who lives in Queens.

That is insufferably ignorant.


And this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

When considering the world population whites are a minority, so if black and brown people in the US are having a hard time there are plenty of majority black and brown nations to move to.


MakeeLearn has also stepped in to provide more nuance to his position, which I haven't seen from the Cap.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6325
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 11:30:41 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

When considering the world population whites are a minority, so if black and brown people in the US are having a hard time there are plenty of majority black and brown nations to move to.


Really? Ever tried to move to another country?



Not personally, but thousands find it quite easy to illegally enter ours every month.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6326
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 11:35:37 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


Danny Thomas who helped start St. Jude was Lebanese American, an Arab American. I think that would count as Caucasian, of the three major groupings.

How about: Were you ever fired so your employer could hire someone who fit one of these criteria as in woman, minority, and so on? Or other wise discriminated against for those same reasons? Do you count that as a nightmare?



Grew up watching the Danny Thomas Show. Parents were huge fans for obvious reasons.

The darker brown skinned Arabs probably don't consider themselves Caucasian and would likely find the association offensive considering the historical animosity between the Arab lands and Europe.


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6327
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 11:42:24 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

We are going to get limited insights into the reality of racism in America from a demographic that is predominantly made up of older white, male and middle class.

Amusingly enough, that tends to be the exact same demographic that has the least exposure to racism and discrimination.

What a surprise, looking at some of the contributions


Clueless again I see.

You have little to no knowledge of the personal experiences of any of us with regard to race.

You might have missed where this older, 'white' male shared that he was a target of violence in his youth because of his race.

The notion that whites have never been on the receiving end of racism is as naive as it gets.

They even have a politically correct name for it: so called Reverse Discrimination.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 6328
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 11:44:25 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If we manage to get even limited insight, that'll still be immeasurably more than we'll get from a select few.


I admit that I am a racist. No matter what my kittens think, I believe that the HUMAN race has priority over all other races. No matter that I wake up during the night to tap my kidneys, I will NOT open up a container of moist food for them.



You and I seem to be complete opposites. I live to serve them.

I feel we owe it to them for having domesticated them and then having turned our back on the responsibility of caring for them.
I think every last human who moves away and leaves their cat behind to fend for itself should be taken out behind the barn and summarily executed with a bulllet to the back of the head.
Can't begin to tell you how many I have taken in who were left behind by their excuses for human being 'owners'.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 5/1/2020 11:47:38 AM >


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6329
RE: OT: Corona virus - 5/1/2020 11:45:50 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8532
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I ask again, and please be specific, "What remark or remarks did I make that was flippant?"

I say that everyone is welcome at the table. If I don't care for your attitude or remarks, I will ignore you.

As far as healthcare outcomes, high blood pressure has been proven to start in children. I could even point out the baseball player whose records helped to prove this. That may be genetic but it could also be diet related. That can be socioeconomic but it could also be cultural.


I wasn't not referring to any remark you made, but rather to ones like this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Oh Sweet Baby Jesus! Here it comes. COVID-19 is a racist. America is racist. Healthcare funding is racist. The virus STARTED in an Asian country. In Wuhan 99.9% of the victims were "coloured". It smashed into Queens. Guess who lives in Queens.

That is insufferably ignorant.


And this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

When considering the world population whites are a minority, so if black and brown people in the US are having a hard time there are plenty of majority black and brown nations to move to.


MakeeLearn has also stepped in to provide more nuance to his position, which I haven't seen from the Cap.


You specifically mentioned me by name then you stated that I made no such remark. That is abusive. So who is actually trying to drive people out of this discussion?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6330
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