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RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 2:31:35 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 9563
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

US weekly jobless claims hit 3.84 million, topping 30 million over the last 6 weeks
18 mins ago

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/us-weekly-jobless-claims-hit-384-million-topping-30-million-over-the-last-6-weeks/ar-BB13qlJV



"First-time filings for unemployment insurance hit 3.84 million last week as the wave of economic pain continues, though the worst appears to be in the past."

"Gross domestic product contracted 4.8% in the first quarter, according to a government report Wednesday that is expected to look much worse when the final revisions are in and only begins to show how much damage has been done.

Economists not only expect the Q1 number to end up sharply lower but predict a second-quarter decline worse than anything the U.S. has ever seen."



Gee, just last week the Govt said unemployment would peak at 27 million, when we were at 26 million unemployed.

It is exceptionally hard to see the economy rebounding.



We all tend to forget that if businesses that had layoffs reopen soon, they will need those same workers back. I think a lot of this is service industry. So it's imperative we get through the hump of the last part of this curve and figure out how to safely open.
warspite1

I'm afraid I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as that. For one thing we are not going back to 'normal' anytime soon. The obvious examples are travel firms, airlines, hotels etc. It's not just one's own country that needs to be out of lock down, it's the destination country too. But who is going to be brave enough to book a holiday without knowing their insurance will pay out? Added to which of course, many people - certainly those most at risk - will still be wary of going out to restaurants, cinemas etc etc. I hope I'm wrong, but I think this is going to be one slow emergence from a gigantic mess - and that assumes no second wave adding fuel to the fire.


I will go out to eat, not a problem for me. But think of the cost of reopening and having to purchase fresh food. If the business reopen then the restaurants will reopen to serve them if nobody else.

Some areas probably will reopen after finally warming up and outdoor recreation is possible again. Wisconsin usually goes nuts for the opening of their game fishing season. In November, parts of the state shut down for a long week with a lot fewer students in school while people try to bring home some venison.

The cinema? I don't care for most of the new movies anyway. But younger people will probably go to the movies.

Vacation? I can't afford one anyway. But some people will take them.

The hospitals need to reopen for their "elective" surgeries and such. That will also bring people back to work.

The lawyers, especially the divorce lawyers, are probably aching to reopen . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 6211
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 2:35:02 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 9563
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Human sacrifice.




Disgusting wording. How many lives are shortened by having worse economies? Quite a large number. Look at the increase in average life span compared with 100, 200 years ago.

Every action has consequences, whether you recognize them and acknowledge them or not.


Suicides for job loss is at around 50,000 people a year.


I have read articles in that magazine. I liked most of them but there is an extremely liberal bias and sometimes it seems intolerant. But that is just my opinion.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 6212
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 2:35:48 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
When Eisenhower made the decision on June 5, 1944, to proceed with Overlord on the 6th, he did so against the recommendations of some of his subordinates. I recall that the head of the airborne troops came to him with an estimate of 70% mortality. A few others cautioned against going in stormy weather, etc. Many others supported his decision as the best possible, given all considerations.

Imagine if D-Day had gone bad. All the books that would've been written about "how I advised Eisenhower to postpone the invasion." All the second-guessing and recriminations.

And that was in a time when the media supported the war effort. Even so, news was censored to prevent demoralizing reports like the German E-boat attack during a D-Day training exercise.

It's much harder to lead today if you have the press against you (and much easier if it's with you). The media is no longer a watchdog, it's an attack dog. It's chosen sides and holds nothing back in fighting with every means at its disposal.

Leadership is tough. They're going to take the blame (at least, those on one side will). Leadership is even more difficult when the so-called mainstream press is accusing you of engaging in human sacrifice and the like.

Eisenhower knew the weight of leadership. He penned a "mission failed" message on June 5, just in case.


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 6213
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 2:40:41 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 43518
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
But that is just life. There will always be the "I told you so" brigade waiting in the wings if things go tits up. Always was, is now and always will be.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6214
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 2:41:40 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

Initial data suggests the disease has had a disproportionate impact on communities of colour. In New York, black and Latino people are twice as likely to die as white people. At One Brooklyn, the group has seen a high rate of hospitalisation among its coronavirus-positive patients. “Our community has been very significantly affected,” says Brown. “There is a reality that many of the hospitals that serve low-income communities of colour have the least amount of resources . . . Any public health crisis will uncover inequalities.”


Oh Sweet Baby Jesus! Here it comes. COVID-19 is a racist. America is racist. Healthcare funding is racist. The virus STARTED in an Asian country. In Wuhan 99.9% of the victims were "coloured". It smashed into Queens. Guess who lives in Queens.

That is insufferably ignorant.


This is an article based on the struggles the US health care system is facing and how that may impact communities. I am American by birth. I understand our history and system. Institutional racism has been a part of The United States for much of it's history, and the legacy of that is still evident.

There are differing levels of accessibility to health care for different economic strata of American culture and black and brown Americans happen to more often, by the data, be in the lower brackets, with less access to the best health care.

These are just objective comments supported by data and not a knock on America. As this article states, this is a chance to re-evaluate how health care works in America and see if improvements can be made to keep hospitals financially stable and get care to the most vulnerable. Now more than ever, since we all depend on everyone being healthy.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 6215
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 2:41:45 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
From a Georgia standpoint, where we're engaging in "human sacrifice" experiments, things remain basically the same.

A few things have re-opened - not many.

People are continuing to observe social distancing. To my knowledge, no movie theaters have reopened. Very few restaurants (less than 10%). A few salons. A heavy emphasis on protecting the elderly (assisted living). Of course, big gatherings still discouraged by mandate and by voluntary actions. Few churches meeting, etc.

Things are relaxing a bit, but not very much.

In my community of 100k, new cases flattened about 10 days ago and remain that way. Deaths too. Ditto surrounding counties, which are mostly rural or small town. Walker County, where Obvert posted a note (from NY Times, about four or five days back) that cases were doubling every 2.5 days...has seen an increase from 58 to 60 over the past four or five days. The easing of countermeasures in places like that are sensible and proportionate. Risk is low. Medical capacity is high. And the allegations of "human sacrifice" and the like are flung about recklessly.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6216
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 3:00:47 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20449
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: online
yellow journalism


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6217
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 3:14:39 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 43518
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

US weekly jobless claims hit 3.84 million, topping 30 million over the last 6 weeks
18 mins ago


https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/us-weekly-jobless-claims-hit-384-million-topping-30-million-over-the-last-6-weeks/ar-BB13qlJV



"First-time filings for unemployment insurance hit 3.84 million last week as the wave of economic pain continues, though the worst appears to be in the past."

"Gross domestic product contracted 4.8% in the first quarter, according to a government report Wednesday that is expected to look much worse when the final revisions are in and only begins to show how much damage has been done.

Economists not only expect the Q1 number to end up sharply lower but predict a second-quarter decline worse than anything the U.S. has ever seen."



Gee, just last week the Govt said unemployment would peak at 27 million, when we were at 26 million unemployed.

It is exceptionally hard to see the economy rebounding.



We all tend to forget that if businesses that had layoffs reopen soon, they will need those same workers back. I think a lot of this is service industry. So it's imperative we get through the hump of the last part of this curve and figure out how to safely open.
warspite1

I'm afraid I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as that. For one thing we are not going back to 'normal' anytime soon. The obvious examples are travel firms, airlines, hotels etc. It's not just one's own country that needs to be out of lock down, it's the destination country too. But who is going to be brave enough to book a holiday without knowing their insurance will pay out? Added to which of course, many people - certainly those most at risk - will still be wary of going out to restaurants, cinemas etc etc. I hope I'm wrong, but I think this is going to be one slow emergence from a gigantic mess - and that assumes no second wave adding fuel to the fire.

warspite1

...and as a perfect example of what I've just outlined. A news article suggests the Spanish tourism business can't afford to re-open without the British tourists it relies so much on..... and as said, who is going to book a holiday to Spain not knowing whether they can get insurance for it? This is not simple and people aren't simply going to be re-hired in their old jobs.

Just look at the closures of retail names - Oasis, Debenhams, Warehouse - even John Lewis say they will never re-open some of their stores. Those jobs have gone.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 6218
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 3:19:53 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 22934
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

Initial data suggests the disease has had a disproportionate impact on communities of colour. In New York, black and Latino people are twice as likely to die as white people. At One Brooklyn, the group has seen a high rate of hospitalisation among its coronavirus-positive patients. “Our community has been very significantly affected,” says Brown. “There is a reality that many of the hospitals that serve low-income communities of colour have the least amount of resources . . . Any public health crisis will uncover inequalities.”


Oh Sweet Baby Jesus! Here it comes. COVID-19 is a racist. America is racist. Healthcare funding is racist. The virus STARTED in an Asian country. In Wuhan 99.9% of the victims were "coloured". It smashed into Queens. Guess who lives in Queens.

That is insufferably ignorant.


This is an article based on the struggles the US health care system is facing and how that may impact communities. I am American by birth. I understand our history and system. Institutional racism has been a part of The United States for much of it's history, and the legacy of that is still evident.

There are differing levels of accessibility to health care for different economic strata of American culture and black and brown Americans happen to more often, by the data, be in the lower brackets, with less access to the best health care.

These are just objective comments supported by data and not a knock on America. As this article states, this is a chance to re-evaluate how health care works in America and see if improvements can be made to keep hospitals financially stable and get care to the most vulnerable. Now more than ever, since we all depend on everyone being healthy.


Is it your thesis that "access to care" is why Americans are dead from COVID? That's absurd. You have a fever with shortness of breath. You go to an ER. You get seen. You need an ICU bed? You get one. You need a vent? You get one. It's an acute infectious illness, man.

"Institutional racism" then? Exactly which "institution" would that be? Bellview Hospital? NYFD? NIH? CDC? FEMA? Fauci? De Blasio? Cuomo? Trump? What institution or individual on this list has denied care based on race?

Is there a disproportionate impact on "people of color" (whatever that means) based on the demographic percentages in the US population? Perhaps, but that does not prove "racism". Like I said it could simply be geographic place or residence. Or population density? Or obesity? Or age? Hypertension?

There is no "opportunity to examine" here. It's an opportunity to attack. It's an agenda piece start to finish. It's the same hackneyed **** all the time. As for slavery? I was not around. It was morally wrong but my opinion was not sought.

< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 4/30/2020 3:21:35 PM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6219
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 3:22:45 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 9563
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online
A Christmas taxi with the mobile bed (an ambulance) just showed up here. Two women got out, one wearing a mask the other was not. The driver (a man) came around the back to where I could see him. He was wearing a mask. Maybe something was said because the nonmask wearer, got one out of the ambulance and put it on. They went to the building No lights or sirens, no one seeming to hurry either.

Bother women came back, no masks on, the man was still wearing one and they got back into the vehicle.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 6220
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 3:25:38 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 22934
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
"Patient Zero" in NY was a Manhattan lawyer. Outbreak in Sun Valley, Idaho? Mostly rich white people staying at $500 a night condos going skiing. Outbreak among Spring Break crowd in Miami? Puerto Ricans and Mexicans? Sure, why not?

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 6221
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 3:50:46 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

Initial data suggests the disease has had a disproportionate impact on communities of colour. In New York, black and Latino people are twice as likely to die as white people. At One Brooklyn, the group has seen a high rate of hospitalisation among its coronavirus-positive patients. “Our community has been very significantly affected,” says Brown. “There is a reality that many of the hospitals that serve low-income communities of colour have the least amount of resources . . . Any public health crisis will uncover inequalities.”


Oh Sweet Baby Jesus! Here it comes. COVID-19 is a racist. America is racist. Healthcare funding is racist. The virus STARTED in an Asian country. In Wuhan 99.9% of the victims were "coloured". It smashed into Queens. Guess who lives in Queens.

That is insufferably ignorant.


This is an article based on the struggles the US health care system is facing and how that may impact communities. I am American by birth. I understand our history and system. Institutional racism has been a part of The United States for much of it's history, and the legacy of that is still evident.

There are differing levels of accessibility to health care for different economic strata of American culture and black and brown Americans happen to more often, by the data, be in the lower brackets, with less access to the best health care.

These are just objective comments supported by data and not a knock on America. As this article states, this is a chance to re-evaluate how health care works in America and see if improvements can be made to keep hospitals financially stable and get care to the most vulnerable. Now more than ever, since we all depend on everyone being healthy.


Is it your thesis that "access to care" is why Americans are dead from COVID? That's absurd. You have a fever with shortness of breath. You go to an ER. You get seen. You need an ICU bed? You get one. You need a vent? You get one. It's an acute infectious illness, man.

"Institutional racism" then? Exactly which "institution" would that be? Bellview Hospital? NYFD? NIH? CDC? FEMA? Fauci? De Blasio? Cuomo? Trump? What institution or individual on this list has denied care based on race?

Is there a disproportionate impact on "people of color" (whatever that means) based on the demographic percentages in the US population? Perhaps, but that does not prove "racism". Like I said it could simply be geographic place or residence. Or population density? Or obesity? Or age? Hypertension?

There is no "opportunity to examine" here. It's an opportunity to attack. It's an agenda piece start to finish. It's the same hackneyed **** all the time. As for slavery? I was not around. It was morally wrong but my opinion was not sought.


I think what you're missing is that I don't have thesis. I'm just presenting an article that is from the Financial Times on what they're looking at in regard to the US healthcare system. I'm very interested in understanding more.

You're picking out the part of the article based on race and income in relation to health care. I'm interested in the difficulty being faced by the hospitals in the US, which I had no understanding of until reading this, and how that may impact less privileged commuities and individuals. Have a read. If you don't recognise the discriminatory history of the US in regard to black and brown Americans, the civil rights movement and the existing legacy of those institutions then it'll be hard to discuss this on the same plane.

< Message edited by obvert -- 4/30/2020 3:51:17 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 6222
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 3:59:35 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

An interesting article on the stresses that this pandemic is adding to an already difficult financial situation for many US hospitals. I had no idea for instance that the US government spending for healthcare per capita was more than is spent in a number of countries with nationalised healthcare.


<snicker>

Where you been, man. That is the preamble of every attack on US healthcare. By ra way, how is the oxygen thingy holding up over there?


Just getting back to this. Although I am a US passport holder, and spent 35 years living in the states in OR, WA, CA, NC, and NY, (and travelling to 47 of the 50) I do not currently live in the US. I am not aware of all the current political arguments on each side and I really don't care that much.

I'm not rooting for either side, which must be hard to understand. It's kind of like living in Chapel Hill and not caring that much whether Duke beat UNC or vice versa. I enjoyed the rivalry and the interest in the cultural phenomenon of it.

Currently I'm interested in how the US health care system is working, how it's making it through, this, and how it will evolve because of this, without specific political bias. I just want people I know in the US, friends and loved ones, to continue to have good access to great health care.

I didn't know the US spent so much per capita on healthcare. That was a shock! I am also concerned if hospitals are actually struggling through this financially, up to 30-40% on the verge of financial collapse if the numbers are accurate in the article.

About your oxygen question, I have no idea what you mean, but it sounds like an attempt at an insult? Sorry. Don't get it.





< Message edited by obvert -- 4/30/2020 4:00:58 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 6223
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:05:42 PM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


About your oxygen question, I have no idea what you mean, but it sounds like an attempt at an insult? Sorry. Don't get it.




I think it was a reference to this

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/07/high-demand-for-oxygen-risks-system-failure-nhs-england-warns

As it turned out 07/04 seems to have been at or about the peak in deaths in the UK (in hospitals at least). As far as I am aware the oxygen failures they were worried about didn't come to pass.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6224
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:07:50 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

An interesting article on the stresses that this pandemic is adding to an already difficult financial situation for many US hospitals. I had no idea for instance that the US government spending for healthcare per capita was more than is spent in a number of countries with nationalised healthcare.

https://www.ft.com/content/3bbb4f7c-890e-11ea-a01c-a28a3e3fbd33

The US government funds more than half of healthcare spending — but it does not run the hospital system. Instead, it supplies public insurance in the form of Medicare, for seniors, and Medicaid, for the poorest, paying through a fragmented network of healthcare providers. To get by, hospitals must also have enough money coming in from commercial insurers or beg for extra subsidies.

Many are on the brink. More than a hundred have closed in the past decade, and a report last month from consultancy BCG estimated that 20 per cent were at “near-term risk of insolvency” before the pandemic. They now think the figure is between 30-40 per cent.

The high number of uninsured people in the US compounds the challenges of responding to coronavirus. At least 27 million Americans lack any health insurance, and that figure is set to rise as millions more lose their jobs. Without insurance, patients risk getting saddled with high bills from emergency room visits that they cannot pay, forcing bad debt on to the hospitals.

Even though the US spends trillions of dollars on healthcare, much of that is wasted. The funding gets used up by bureaucrats that have to code and bill every action a doctor takes, by doctors and hospital administrators paid far more than their European counterparts and by the soaring cost of drugs. A study last year in The Journal of the American Medical Association found at least $760bn was wasted in unnecessary health spending — more than the US spends on primary and secondary education.

Poorer hospitals that cater to low-income urban communities, or rural areas where population is declining, are dependent on government insurance. They say the payments from Medicaid do not cover their costs as the price of staff, equipment and drugs rises.

---------------

Initial data suggests the disease has had a disproportionate impact on communities of colour. In New York, black and Latino people are twice as likely to die as white people. At One Brooklyn, the group has seen a high rate of hospitalisation among its coronavirus-positive patients. “Our community has been very significantly affected,” says Brown. “There is a reality that many of the hospitals that serve low-income communities of colour have the least amount of resources . . . Any public health crisis will uncover inequalities.”





Ten percent of all Medicare and Medicaid spending is for fraud. Some unintended but most intentional. The chance of getting caught is relatively low with businesses going in and out of business under different names at different locations. The ones that stay in business at the same place and location are most likely to be caught. I read where one group home charged for therapy sessions that did not take place. In fact, one individual was in jail during the time that he was supposedly undergoing therapy.

I saw on television where an insurance company would be billed $4000 for a CAT scan, while Medicare/Medicaid would be billed between 2400-2600. If a person offered to pay the bill that day, that person would be charged $400.

In a study, if a person went to a doctor with a lingering chest cold there was the chance of either an average 4 x-rays or less than 1. The difference? Whether or not the doctor's office owned an x-ray machine.

If a person agrees to pay for "out of coverage" medical tests or care, then the bills can really escalate. The doctors don't have to go through the in coverage lab but can go to a different one, like the one that the doctors own.



A few articles recently make me think pharmaceuticals are priced much higher in the States than elsewhere as well. Diabetics pay a LOT for insulin for instance, which of course they need, and is not actually hard or expensive to produce. It's MUCH cheaper in the UK and elsewhere in Europe for sure.

I go here to the pharmacy and pay a surplus of £4.50 for anything I'm prescribed. I have a friend who happened to get the same medication I got here, and he paid $100+ for it. If you do have something long lasting or chronic, that adds up fast.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6225
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:12:37 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20449
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

An interesting article on the stresses that this pandemic is adding to an already difficult financial situation for many US hospitals. I had no idea for instance that the US government spending for healthcare per capita was more than is spent in a number of countries with nationalised healthcare.


<snicker>

Where you been, man. That is the preamble of every attack on US healthcare. By ra way, how is the oxygen thingy holding up over there?


Just getting back to this. Although I am a US passport holder, and spent 35 years living in the states in OR, WA, CA, NC, and NY, (and travelling to 47 of the 50) I do not currently live in the US. I am not aware of all the current political arguments on each side and I really don't care that much.

I'm not rooting for either side, which must be hard to understand. It's kind of like living in Chapel Hill and not caring that much whether Duke beat UNC or vice versa. I enjoyed the rivalry and the interest in the cultural phenomenon of it.

Currently I'm interested in how the US health care system is working, how it's making it through, this, and how it will evolve because of this, without specific political bias. I just want people I know in the US, friends and loved ones, to continue to have good access to great health care.

I didn't know the US spent so much per capita on healthcare. That was a shock! I am also concerned if hospitals are actually struggling through this financially, up to 30-40% on the verge of financial collapse if the numbers are accurate in the article.

About your oxygen question, I have no idea what you mean, but it sounds like an attempt at an insult? Sorry. Don't get it.






My niece's hospital in Washington DC has about 40% occupancy. Most of the staff is on half hours or worse.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6226
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:13:59 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 9563
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

Initial data suggests the disease has had a disproportionate impact on communities of colour. In New York, black and Latino people are twice as likely to die as white people. At One Brooklyn, the group has seen a high rate of hospitalisation among its coronavirus-positive patients. “Our community has been very significantly affected,” says Brown. “There is a reality that many of the hospitals that serve low-income communities of colour have the least amount of resources . . . Any public health crisis will uncover inequalities.”


Oh Sweet Baby Jesus! Here it comes. COVID-19 is a racist. America is racist. Healthcare funding is racist. The virus STARTED in an Asian country. In Wuhan 99.9% of the victims were "coloured". It smashed into Queens. Guess who lives in Queens.

That is insufferably ignorant.


This is an article based on the struggles the US health care system is facing and how that may impact communities. I am American by birth. I understand our history and system. Institutional racism has been a part of The United States for much of it's history, and the legacy of that is still evident.

There are differing levels of accessibility to health care for different economic strata of American culture and black and brown Americans happen to more often, by the data, be in the lower brackets, with less access to the best health care.

These are just objective comments supported by data and not a knock on America. As this article states, this is a chance to re-evaluate how health care works in America and see if improvements can be made to keep hospitals financially stable and get care to the most vulnerable. Now more than ever, since we all depend on everyone being healthy.


Is it your thesis that "access to care" is why Americans are dead from COVID? That's absurd. You have a fever with shortness of breath. You go to an ER. You get seen. You need an ICU bed? You get one. You need a vent? You get one. It's an acute infectious illness, man.

"Institutional racism" then? Exactly which "institution" would that be? Bellview Hospital? NYFD? NIH? CDC? FEMA? Fauci? De Blasio? Cuomo? Trump? What institution or individual on this list has denied care based on race?

Is there a disproportionate impact on "people of color" (whatever that means) based on the demographic percentages in the US population? Perhaps, but that does not prove "racism". Like I said it could simply be geographic place or residence. Or population density? Or obesity? Or age? Hypertension?

There is no "opportunity to examine" here. It's an opportunity to attack. It's an agenda piece start to finish. It's the same hackneyed **** all the time. As for slavery? I was not around. It was morally wrong but my opinion was not sought.


I think what you're missing is that I don't have thesis. I'm just presenting an article that is from the Financial Times on what they're looking at in regard to the US healthcare system. I'm very interested in understanding more.

You're picking out the part of the article based on race and income in relation to health care. I'm interested in the difficulty being faced by the hospitals in the US, which I had no understanding of until reading this, and how that may impact less privileged commuities and individuals. Have a read. If you don't recognise the discriminatory history of the US in regard to black and brown Americans, the civil rights movement and the existing legacy of those institutions then it'll be hard to discuss this on the same plane.


Somebody said that "I have a dream." It turned into a nightmare.

There are plenty of poor people in the US who are not black or brown. I brought up some points earlier that should be investigated. You never responded to that.

Many of those hospitals in trouble are the smaller ones in rural areas. Those had to cut costs before, then the government came along and cut Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements to those hospitals. It costs more to treat some of those patients than is received. I don't know what you know about business, but that only works in Socialist/Communist business models.

The drug costs are high because it can cost one billion US Dollars to bring a drug to market. Other countries limit how much that can be charged for the drug but not the US government although there are some programs that buy in large amounts for less.

Not to mention malpractice costs. Since the US has a system where the loser does not pay the winners legal fees (at least usually) it is cheaper to settle than it is to go to court. After all, it will cost so much whether you win or lose so you might as well settle - at least for any insurance company. That is called greenmail. Same thing for organizations who want money, especially those like the Westboro so called "Baptist Church."

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 4/30/2020 4:16:43 PM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6227
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:15:24 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20449
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

A few articles recently make me think pharmaceuticals are priced much higher in the States than elsewhere as well. Diabetics pay a LOT for insulin for instance, which of course they need, and is not actually hard or expensive to produce. It's MUCH cheaper in the UK and elsewhere in Europe for sure.



Drugs are very expensive.

One reason Lawyers...I have seen reports that up to 50% is legal fees or contingencies for legal fees. Also, high prices fuel research to a degree.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6228
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:17:52 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 9563
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

A few articles recently make me think pharmaceuticals are priced much higher in the States than elsewhere as well. Diabetics pay a LOT for insulin for instance, which of course they need, and is not actually hard or expensive to produce. It's MUCH cheaper in the UK and elsewhere in Europe for sure.



Drugs are very expensive.

One reason Lawyers...I have seen reports that up to 50% is legal fees or contingencies for legal fees. Also, high prices fuel research to a degree.


Not to mention padding the bill by hiring family members.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 6229
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:22:06 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

US weekly jobless claims hit 3.84 million, topping 30 million over the last 6 weeks
18 mins ago


https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/us-weekly-jobless-claims-hit-384-million-topping-30-million-over-the-last-6-weeks/ar-BB13qlJV



"First-time filings for unemployment insurance hit 3.84 million last week as the wave of economic pain continues, though the worst appears to be in the past."

"Gross domestic product contracted 4.8% in the first quarter, according to a government report Wednesday that is expected to look much worse when the final revisions are in and only begins to show how much damage has been done.

Economists not only expect the Q1 number to end up sharply lower but predict a second-quarter decline worse than anything the U.S. has ever seen."



Gee, just last week the Govt said unemployment would peak at 27 million, when we were at 26 million unemployed.

It is exceptionally hard to see the economy rebounding.



We all tend to forget that if businesses that had layoffs reopen soon, they will need those same workers back. I think a lot of this is service industry. So it's imperative we get through the hump of the last part of this curve and figure out how to safely open.
warspite1

I'm afraid I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as that. For one thing we are not going back to 'normal' anytime soon. The obvious examples are travel firms, airlines, hotels etc. It's not just one's own country that needs to be out of lock down, it's the destination country too. But who is going to be brave enough to book a holiday without knowing their insurance will pay out? Added to which of course, many people - certainly those most at risk - will still be wary of going out to restaurants, cinemas etc etc. I hope I'm wrong, but I think this is going to be one slow emergence from a gigantic mess - and that assumes no second wave adding fuel to the fire.



Well, I hear you. I won't be easy for sure. Some countries are doing it though, like South Korea, and Taiwan, and Sweden seems actually to still be okay with it's loose recommendations and most things open.

I think the next month will show a lot as some countries in Europe and States in the US open up.

Travel will have a hard time, but maybe internal travel will begin to rebound in many countries as measures relax. While airlines will suffer, hotels may find internal travelers begin to fill a gap since most borders for international travel are closed. Hope so anyway.

_____________________________

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 6230
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:26:04 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Rules for me, but not for thee....


Barack Obama Goes Golfing at Country Club the Day After Michelle Urged African Americans to Stay Home

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2020/04/29/barack-obama-goes-golfing-during-coronavirus-quarantine-n386764


Any data on other currently serving public officials golfing you'd like to share?


If you know anything, please share.



Well, there is this. Coming to a TV near you soon, apparently.

https://www.salon.com/2020/04/10/republican-group-attacks-president-for-golfing-during-coronavirus-outbreak-trump-just-didnt-care/

< Message edited by obvert -- 4/30/2020 4:27:05 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6231
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:31:12 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Human sacrifice.




Disgusting wording. How many lives are shortened by having worse economies? Quite a large number. Look at the increase in average life span compared with 100, 200 years ago.

Every action has consequences, whether you recognize them and acknowledge them or not.


This headline has obvious political implications. As an interested bystander I'd like to see the article though. The Atlantic is good, and usually backs up what they write. Headlines are not decided by the journalists that write articles unfortunately, in many cases.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 6232
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:44:00 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


Somebody said that "I have a dream." It turned into a nightmare.

There are plenty of poor people in the US who are not black or brown. I brought up some points earlier that should be investigated. You never responded to that.



That is undisputed. I understand US history. But what do you mean "nightmare?" Civil Rights, equality by law and practice has led to a nightmare?

Poor whites will also suffer, clearly. What I'm saying is that many black and brown Americans are in an underprivileged position due to historical policies and practices and some of that seems to be presenting itself in relation to this pandemic.

More, as you say, will have to be learned about how much is blood type, genetics, diet or other factors, in addition to access to good healthcare.

quote:



Many of those hospitals in trouble are the smaller ones in rural areas. Those had to cut costs before, then the government came along and cut Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements to those hospitals. It costs more to treat some of those patients than is received. I don't know what you know about business, but that only works in Socialist/Communist business models.



Actually, no. Many countries have nationalised healthcare and treat all people regardless of income.

It's possible.

quote:



The drug costs are high because it can cost one billion US Dollars to bring a drug to market. Other countries limit how much that can be charged for the drug but not the US government although there are some programs that buy in large amounts for less.

Not to mention malpractice costs. Since the US has a system where the loser does not pay the winners legal fees (at least usually) it is cheaper to settle than it is to go to court. After all, it will cost so much whether you win or lose so you might as well settle - at least for any insurance company. That is called greenmail. Same thing for organizations who want money, especially those like the Westboro so called "Baptist Church."


I brought up insulin for a reason. It's cheap, was developed in the 1920s, and was pretty cheap then.

This is from the Mayo clinic.


https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(19)31008-0/fulltext


One vial of Humalog (insulin lispro), which used to cost $21 in 1999, costs $332 in 2019, reflecting a price increase of more than 1000%.10, 11, 12 In contrast, insulin prices in other developed countries, including neighboring Canada, have stayed the same.

Insulin pricing in the United States is the consequence of the exact opposite of a free market: extended monopoly on a lifesaving product in which prices can be increased at will, taking advantage of regulatory and legal restrictions on market entry and importation.

Third, the arguments that high costs are needed for continued innovation and that attempts to lower or regulate the prices will hamper innovation are not a valid excuse.13 There is limited innovation when it comes to insulin; the more pressing need is affordability.


< Message edited by obvert -- 4/30/2020 4:54:19 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6233
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:52:01 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20449
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Rules for me, but not for thee....


Barack Obama Goes Golfing at Country Club the Day After Michelle Urged African Americans to Stay Home

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2020/04/29/barack-obama-goes-golfing-during-coronavirus-quarantine-n386764


Any data on other currently serving public officials golfing you'd like to share?


If you know anything, please share.



Well, there is this. Coming to a TV near you soon, apparently.

https://www.salon.com/2020/04/10/republican-group-attacks-president-for-golfing-during-coronavirus-outbreak-trump-just-didnt-care/


Having watched the ad and read the article, Trump did not violate a state's lockdown to go golfing but Obama did.



(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6234
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:56:16 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Rules for me, but not for thee....


Barack Obama Goes Golfing at Country Club the Day After Michelle Urged African Americans to Stay Home

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2020/04/29/barack-obama-goes-golfing-during-coronavirus-quarantine-n386764


Any data on other currently serving public officials golfing you'd like to share?


If you know anything, please share.



Well, there is this. Coming to a TV near you soon, apparently.

https://www.salon.com/2020/04/10/republican-group-attacks-president-for-golfing-during-coronavirus-outbreak-trump-just-didnt-care/


Having watched the ad and read the article, Trump did not violate a state's lockdown to go golfing but Obama did.



I hear you.

I think what the republicans who are paying for that ad say is that Trump is an elected official in charge of setting policy for the nation, and instead ...


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 6235
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:56:29 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20449
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


Insulin pricing in the United States is the consequence of the exact opposite of a free market: extended monopoly on a lifesaving product in which prices can be increased at will, taking advantage of regulatory and legal restrictions on market entry and importation.

Third, the arguments that high costs are needed for continued innovation and that attempts to lower or regulate the prices will hamper innovation are not a valid excuse.13 There is limited innovation when it comes to insulin; the more pressing need is affordability.[/color]



Nothing happens in a vacuum...the medical system in the US is far, far removed from a free market thanks a lot to Obama Care which increased the cost of healthcare substantially.

Those companies that make and distribute insulin do other things too.



(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6236
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 4:58:04 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
. If you don't recognise the discriminatory history of the US in regard to black and brown Americans, the civil rights movement and the existing legacy of those institutions then it'll be hard to discuss this on the same plane.


Keyword: HISTORY as in ancient history.

Institutionalized Racism simply does not exist anymore.

Every Institution in the US has been providing special treatment to people of color and discriminating against non-people of color for somewhere around thirty years now in a misguided attempt to redress PAST discrimination.

There is no institution in the US today that could even dream of getting away with racist treatment of people of color.

That Institutionalized Racism exists in America today is a leftist fabrication.

Sooner or later you are going to have to step outside of that bubble you are living in.


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6237
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 5:01:34 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
I've generally been on target when predicting that Univ. of Washington was due to revise projections.

At the moment, I think we're close to getting this thread locked. I hope not, as it's been long-lived with a lot of good information mixed in with the occasional tangents and dust-ups.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 6238
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 5:03:58 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline
Obvert,

Here is an example of how strained the health care system in Florida is:

And just to placate you conservative haters, the source is as left leaning as it gets:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/28/trump-and-florida-gov-ron-desantis-to-hold-press-conference-tuesday-morning.html

Of course they had to put their negative leftist spin in the article pointing out the 'chaos' surrounding the meeting.....

A few choice excerpts:

“Everyone in the media was saying Florida was going to be like New York or Italy and that has not happened,” DeSantis, a self-styled Trump Republican, told the press.

“We understood that the outbreak was not uniform throughout the state, and we had a tailored and measured approach that not only helped our numbers be way below what anybody predicted, but also did less damage to our state going forward,” said DeSantis. He also noted that he let construction continue throughout the stay-at-home order.

“I had less than 500 people, in a state of 22 million, on ventilators as of last night,” said DeSantis. “I have 6,500 ventilators that are sitting idle, unused, throughout the state of Florida.” Trump added that some of these ventilators could be donated to other countries with greater need for them than the United States

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 6239
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/30/2020 5:13:33 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 20449
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I hear you.

I think what the republicans who are paying for that ad say is that Trump is an elected official in charge of setting policy for the nation, and instead ...



I would hope that any elected official that violates a state's lockdown to go golfing would be run out of office. I don't care what party they are in.

My statement is not political but rather procedural.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 6240
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