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Allies occuping all four exit hexes around Gibraltar so as to deny Axis fleet movement?

 
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Allies occuping all four exit hexes around Gibraltar so... - 2/25/2020 4:16:15 PM   
Tanaka


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Should this be allowed? Is this not gamey?

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 3/6/2020 9:55:24 PM >


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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 2/25/2020 4:53:39 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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Yes somewhat gamey, and maybe an exception could be made for subs.

Still, the axis player has options. One can try to destroy the ship occupying the hex if the defenses are weak enough. Or the axis could occupy algeria and use bombers to destroy blockading ships, thereby making it too expensive to maintain.

Or just get spain to join, or invade spain

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 2/25/2020 4:55:00 PM >

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 2/25/2020 5:24:29 PM   
Tanaka


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I here you. Just seems like it defeats the purpose of those Axis to Atlantic hexes?

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 2/25/2020 7:44:13 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Maybe it's valid though, in the sense that if the Allied naval forces are operating in great strength in this area then sailing via the Gibraltar Strait would have been much harder if not impossible?


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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 2/25/2020 9:54:00 PM   
Helsingor

 

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I agree with Bill’s point. If the Allies commit four naval units (which represent task forces, not individual ships), then running the Straits would have been impossible for surface ships and very difficult for subs (which because of the currents generally had to try going into the Med on the surface at night).
That said, it does seem odd that the French and British can block the Reggia Marina from leaving the Med when Italy is still neutral.
I’m guessing that there’s no easy way to code for this exception, though.

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 2/25/2020 10:07:08 PM   
Helsingor

 

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Is there any way to give the Axis some slight compensation for this tactic?
Some possibilities: Blocking the outbound hexes while Italy is still neutral boosts Spanish pro-Axis leaning slightly. Or maybe dips US pro-Allied leaning slightly due to isolationist anger over the blocking of international waters.
Raising Italian mobilization would be more logical, but could easily lead to gamey tactics by Allied players hoping to draw Italy into the war early.
Another possibility would be to give the Axis some spotting capacity near Gib.
The Abwehr ran a very effective naval espionage operation around the Rock (with tacit and not so tacit Spanish help) and the Germans generally knew what British ships were going in and out.
Maybe this could only kick in with the Fall of France or if Spanish pro-Axis leaning rises to a fairly high level.

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/3/2020 6:37:05 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helsingor

Is there any way to give the Axis some slight compensation for this tactic?
Some possibilities: Blocking the outbound hexes while Italy is still neutral boosts Spanish pro-Axis leaning slightly. Or maybe dips US pro-Allied leaning slightly due to isolationist anger over the blocking of international waters.
Raising Italian mobilization would be more logical, but could easily lead to gamey tactics by Allied players hoping to draw Italy into the war early.
Another possibility would be to give the Axis some spotting capacity near Gib.
The Abwehr ran a very effective naval espionage operation around the Rock (with tacit and not so tacit Spanish help) and the Germans generally knew what British ships were going in and out.
Maybe this could only kick in with the Fall of France or if Spanish pro-Axis leaning rises to a fairly high level.


These all make sense to me. Spain diplomatic hits would make allied players think twice. They did this for the Norway convoy raiding as well.

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/3/2020 7:39:48 PM   
amandkm

 

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Like to point out that the Italian ships were not designed for operations in the Atlantic. They were fair-weather boats and would not have done well in those stormy waters. It could be argued that it is 'gamey' to treat the RM as having the same attributes as the Royal Navy, so I don't see anything wrong with a bit of counter gamey to enable a more historical result.

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/3/2020 7:52:47 PM   
crispy131313


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I think it is a perfectly reasonable tactic to blockade the passage, even if Italy was neutral would the British allow the Italian warships to just sail into the Atlantic during war time like "nothing going on here" just sailing our Battleships towards France as we line up our forces on the French border.

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/3/2020 8:05:10 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

I think it is a perfectly reasonable tactic to blockade the passage, even if Italy was neutral would the British allow the Italian warships to just sail into the Atlantic during war time like "nothing going on here" just sailing our Battleships towards France as we line up our forces on the French border.



Agree with this reasoning. Maybe blocking the Italian ships could increase Italian mobilization?

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/3/2020 10:11:11 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

I think it is a perfectly reasonable tactic to blockade the passage, even if Italy was neutral would the British allow the Italian warships to just sail into the Atlantic during war time like "nothing going on here" just sailing our Battleships towards France as we line up our forces on the French border.




That's too funny. But I wonder what the real history was? Did the Italians ever send ships or subs through the Malta or Suez passes? They do get a destroyer unit in IEA. And at what point did the allies start blockading these passes in real life?

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 3/3/2020 10:14:34 PM >


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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/4/2020 2:24:16 AM   
sveint


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Historically the Italian navy never ventured anywhere further than Malta/Greece. It was completely incapable of operating larger vessels in the Atlantic.

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/4/2020 2:24:54 AM   
Bo Rearguard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

That's too funny. But I wonder what the real history was? Did the Italians ever send ships or subs through the Malta or Suez passes? They do get a destroyer unit in IEA. And at what point did the allies start blockading these passes in real life?


The Italians eventually sent a total of 28 subs through the Straits of Gibraltar to a base in Bordeaux, France set up for them by the Germans (BETASOM). Surface ships, no. I'm pretty sure the Suez canal was closed to them once hostilities started.

Force H, under the command of Vice-Admiral Somerville was formed in 1940 at Gibraltar to keep a close guard on the strait after the French armistice, and had the task of maintaining naval superiority in the area and escorting convoys to and from Malta. It also took a brief but vital part in the pursuit and sinking of the Bismarck. I suppose keeping those hexes around Gibraltar occupied sort of abstractly represents Force H.

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/4/2020 2:00:20 PM   
amandkm

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

Historically the Italian navy never ventured anywhere further than Malta/Greece. It was completely incapable of operating larger vessels in the Atlantic.

That's what I'm saying :) This game is a beer and pretzels exercise, so I don't want to have to noodle over oil supplies, maintenance, ship freeboard, etc, but if we can preserve a more historical outcome through use of the hex block, I am all for it.

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/5/2020 1:57:53 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: amandkm


quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

Historically the Italian navy never ventured anywhere further than Malta/Greece. It was completely incapable of operating larger vessels in the Atlantic.

That's what I'm saying :) This game is a beer and pretzels exercise, so I don't want to have to noodle over oil supplies, maintenance, ship freeboard, etc, but if we can preserve a more historical outcome through use of the hex block, I am all for it.

But you're not.

Atlantic:

"From 10 June 1940, submarines of the Regia Marina took part in the Battle of the Atlantic alongside the U-Boats of Nazi Germany's Kriegsmarine. The Italian submarines were based in Bordeaux, France at the BETASOM base. While more suited for the Mediterranean Sea than the Atlantic Ocean, the thirty-two Italian submarines that operated in the Atlantic sank 109 Allied ships for a total of 593,864 tons."

Red Sea:

"Initially, Italian forces enjoyed considerable success in East Africa. From 10 June 1940, the Regia Marina's Red Sea Flotilla, based at Massawa, Eritrea, posed a potential threat to Allied shipping crossing the Red Sea between the Indian Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea. This threat increased in August 1940 with the Italian conquest of British Somaliland, which allowed the Italians the use of the port of Berbera; in January 1941, however, British and Commonwealth forces launched a successful counterattack in East Africa and the threat posed by the Red Sea Flotilla disappeared.

Much of the Red Sea Flotilla was destroyed by hostile action during the first months of war or when the port of Massawa fell in April 1941. However, there were a few survivors. In February 1941, prior to the fall of Massawa, the colonial ship Eritrea and the auxiliary cruisers Ramb I and Ramb II broke out and sailed to Kobe, Japan. While Ramb I was sunk by the New Zealand cruiser HMNZS Leander off the Maldives, Eritrea and Ramb II made it to Kobe. As the port of Massawa was falling, four submarines—Guglielmo, Gauleo Ferraras, Perla, and Archimede—sailed south from Massawa, rounded the Cape of Good Hope and ultimately sailed to German occupied Bordeaux, France. One or two Italian merchant ships from the Red Sea Flotilla made it to Vichy French-controlled Madagascar.
On 10 June 1941 the British launched Operation Chronometer, landing a battalion of troops from the British Indian army at Assab, the last Italian-held harbour on the Red Sea.[16] By 11 June, Assab had fallen. Two days later, on 13 June, the Indian trawler Parvati became the last naval casualty of the East African Campaign when it struck a moored mine near Assab.[17]"

So how did the Italians get all those ships to East Africa?




< Message edited by Tanaka -- 3/6/2020 5:47:26 AM >


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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/5/2020 12:44:35 PM   
amandkm

 

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You're sort of making my point for me. The red sea forces are perfectly well represented by the half-strength DD unit that spawns when Italy enters the war. No need to discuss them further.

No major surface units of the RM were deployed to the Atlantic. If you want to slip a sub out before war starts, I don't have a problem with this, and the rules as currently exist allow this.

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/6/2020 5:30:50 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: amandkm

You're sort of making my point for me. The red sea forces are perfectly well represented by the half-strength DD unit that spawns when Italy enters the war. No need to discuss them further.

No major surface units of the RM were deployed to the Atlantic. If you want to slip a sub out before war starts, I don't have a problem with this, and the rules as currently exist allow this.


And you're making my point for me. If the Allied forces can park ships on those exit hexes you are not getting any Italian subs into the Atlantic whether the war with Italy has started or not. Nor can you transport anything to East Africa pre-war. And of course the Germans operated subs in the Mediterranean through the straits as well and neither will this be possible. The Italians also had submarines operating in the Red Sea.

"On 10 June 1940, the Red Sea Flotilla had seven destroyers in two squadrons, a squadron of five Motor Torpedo Boats (MAS, Motoscafo Armato Silurante) and eight submarines in two squadrons."

It's just gamey and not historical in my opinion to be able to block all of this without any repercussions...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 3/6/2020 6:02:30 AM >


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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/6/2020 12:31:56 PM   
chucknra

 

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Totally agree about the gaminess of blockading unless there are repercussions to the Brits. Since Italy is not at war they should be allowed through unless Britain gets a penalty.... maybe increase moving Italy towards Axis 5% per turn?

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/6/2020 3:50:18 PM   
The Land

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helsingor

That said, it does seem odd that the French and British can block the Reggia Marina from leaving the Med when Italy is still neutral.
I’m guessing that there’s no easy way to code for this exception, though.


Why on earth would the Regia Marina be leaving the Med when Italy was neutral? That is far gamier than the Allies being able to block the Straits effectively!!

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/6/2020 4:02:14 PM   
chucknra

 

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Not necessarily so. I often transport two Italian infantry around Africa to Ethiopia during the first two turns.

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/6/2020 4:37:43 PM   
amandkm

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chucknra

Not necessarily so. I often transport two Italian infantry around Africa to Ethiopia during the first two turns.

I think the comment refers to the rather historical unlikelyhood of the Italians doing so, than to the difficulty in game mechanics terms.

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/23/2020 3:32:24 AM   
Sparky0565

 

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The Italians can send two ships or two transport two units through the straits before the Allies can block it. The ship sare free to roam the world while the unit would need to sail to the ports in East Africa.

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RE: Allies occuping all four hexes around Gibraltar so ... - 3/26/2020 11:15:48 PM   
ThunderLizard2

 

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Move your units there on turn 1 before Allies blockade

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