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Games that feature realistic retreat

 
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Games that feature realistic retreat - 2/23/2020 7:11:21 PM   
Ekaton


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I love Steel Panthers and many operational level games like those by John Tiller, but my problem with them is that the AI is always fighting to the end - they will rarely if ever make an attempt to retreat once hit hard, or against overwhelming odds, which feels rather unrealistic (or prove me wrong, did WWII battalions often fight to the death, barely retreating?). In John Tiller's games they will retreat, but just one hex at a time, and won't attempt to retreat further on AI's turn.

Are there any games that feature operational level combat and also model retreats realistically? I know that Gary Grigsby's WitW and WitE feature that, and AI usually does a rather good job, The Operational Art of War is quite decent as well, but what else can I find there?

< Message edited by Ekaton -- 2/23/2020 7:12:18 PM >


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RE: Games that feature realistic retreat - 2/23/2020 8:24:30 PM   
Red2112

 

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IIRC, Tiger On The Hunt will retreat to a safer position, and the Decisive Campaigns series does same.

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RE: Games that feature realistic retreat - 2/24/2020 5:12:43 PM   
Vasquez


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Command Ops Series comes to mind.

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RE: Games that feature realistic retreat - 2/29/2020 12:02:04 PM   
Ekaton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vasquez

Command Ops Series comes to mind.


Command Ops can have quite good AI, but too often it simply rushes towards its objective, sometimes with HQ units, not caring for its supply routes or the high likelihood of getting encircled.

My problem with most games is that they lack proper morale system, I guess - a unit that took heavy beating in Steel Panthers and is left with just 2-3 men out of a dozen or more should keep retreating, if possible. Otherwise, they seem to be near-mindless drones, and it seems awfully unrealistic under normal circumstances, especially with conscripts who behave like commandos with their nerves of steel.

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RE: Games that feature realistic retreat - 2/29/2020 1:52:20 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton

My problem with most games is that they lack proper morale system, I guess - a unit that took heavy beating in Steel Panthers and is left with just 2-3 men out of a dozen or more should keep retreating, if possible. Otherwise, they seem to be near-mindless drones, and it seems awfully unrealistic under normal circumstances, especially with conscripts who behave like commandos with their nerves of steel.

I recommend you Sengoku Jidai: Shadow of the Shogun. All too often routed unit retreats off the map never to return (sometimes returns) and scenario is over & done when enough units are routed.

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RE: Games that feature realistic retreat - 2/29/2020 4:46:54 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton


Are there any games that feature operational level combat and also model retreats realistically? I know that Gary Grigsby's WitW and WitE feature that


Seriously? They retreat farther than they can move in one turn. Hardly realistic.

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RE: Games that feature realistic retreat - 2/29/2020 4:50:03 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vasquez

Command Ops Series comes to mind.


Command Ops can have quite good AI, but too often it simply rushes towards its objective, sometimes with HQ units, not caring for its supply routes or the high likelihood of getting encircled.

My problem with most games is that they lack proper morale system, I guess - a unit that took heavy beating in Steel Panthers and is left with just 2-3 men out of a dozen or more should keep retreating, if possible. Otherwise, they seem to be near-mindless drones, and it seems awfully unrealistic under normal circumstances, especially with conscripts who behave like commandos with their nerves of steel.


Aye this is true. But it's difficult to model unit cohesiveness in a game. If a unit is badly treated and retreats in disorder the separate parts will rarely remain together and much of the heavy equipment is abandoned. In the East Front it got so bad for the Soviets that if a soldier left even a rifle behind he would be considered to be aiding the enemy.

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RE: Games that feature realistic retreat - 3/1/2020 5:44:10 PM   
Ekaton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton


Are there any games that feature operational level combat and also model retreats realistically? I know that Gary Grigsby's WitW and WitE feature that


Seriously? They retreat farther than they can move in one turn. Hardly realistic.


That's true, retreat can be quite OP, I guess to mask AI deficiencies, but overall the game seems rather realistic - units will rarely fight to the end if they have a choice not to, they will try to retreat to form a cohesive, easier to defend line, and in general behave much more like a real military force of the time.

Most strategy games, especially those that focus on smaller engagements, like aforementioned Steel Panthers or John Tiller's battles or squad battles, don't have anything like it, and it usually seems like fighting mindless drones. I don't have enough time for, and my schedule is too frantic, to play PBEM at the moment so I was wondering if there are any alternatives.

Overall, I'd say that WitW and WitE always seemed most realistic.

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RE: Games that feature realistic retreat - 3/1/2020 6:08:17 PM   
RangerJoe


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Retreating is not an orderly movement so it will be faster since the tendency is to abandon equipment - and people - that can slow you down. In the Roman times, the families told their men who were soldiers to come home - with your shield or on it! The shield was the first thing thrown away in a retreat. In modern times, think of broken down vehicles and weapons discarded by men who love their mother and country so much that they are running back to it.

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RE: Games that feature realistic retreat - 3/1/2020 6:46:12 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton

Most strategy games, especially those that focus on smaller engagements, like aforementioned Steel Panthers or John Tiller's battles or squad battles, don't have anything like it, and it usually seems like fighting mindless drones. I don't have enough time for, and my schedule is too frantic, to play PBEM at the moment so I was wondering if there are any alternatives.

https://www.matrixgames.com/game/sengoku-jidai-shadow-of-the-shogun-collectors-edition

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RE: Games that feature realistic retreat - 3/1/2020 8:17:20 PM   
ezzler

 

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The most realistic retreat I've ever undertaken was in World in flames.
The Russian front. The pressure mounts on the line. And the line holds. it bends. It wavers, and then, suddenly, it breaks. And that a stack of units is wiped out. if you don't retreat, you will lose the entire front.
i had the German line crack at Stalingrad, and it was five hundred miles back before the front could be stabilized. Same in France. hang onto the Normandy sector. But once its gone, the Rhine is the only viable anchor position.

this is not A.I. of course. Its just that if you try and fight on a breakthrough line, you will lose.

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RE: Games that feature realistic retreat - 3/1/2020 11:08:57 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ezzler

The most realistic retreat I've ever undertaken was in World in flames.
The Russian front. The pressure mounts on the line. And the line holds. it bends. It wavers, and then, suddenly, it breaks. And that a stack of units is wiped out. if you don't retreat, you will lose the entire front.
i had the German line crack at Stalingrad, and it was five hundred miles back before the front could be stabilized. Same in France. hang onto the Normandy sector. But once its gone, the Rhine is the only viable anchor position.

this is not A.I. of course. Its just that if you try and fight on a breakthrough line, you will lose.


Unless you are Manstein.

No one does retreats properly. And unfortunately games sometimes do stupid things when a unit has to retreat. When the Germans hit the Soviets in June 41 routing Soviet units were still appearing to the Soviet front two weeks after the start of hostilities. Entire routed units do not retreat as a whole and it can take them a very long time to get back to friendly units. They certainly don't go full bore because they are trying to avoid enemy units. Evade and Escape. I guess they call it SERE now. Not sure if it was taught at all in the WW2 era.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 3/1/2020 11:16:26 PM >


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RE: Games that feature realistic retreat - 3/1/2020 11:48:14 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: ezzler

The most realistic retreat I've ever undertaken was in World in flames.
The Russian front. The pressure mounts on the line. And the line holds. it bends. It wavers, and then, suddenly, it breaks. And that a stack of units is wiped out. if you don't retreat, you will lose the entire front.
i had the German line crack at Stalingrad, and it was five hundred miles back before the front could be stabilized. Same in France. hang onto the Normandy sector. But once its gone, the Rhine is the only viable anchor position.

this is not A.I. of course. Its just that if you try and fight on a breakthrough line, you will lose.


Unless you are Manstein.

No one does retreats properly. And unfortunately games sometimes do stupid things when a unit has to retreat. When the Germans hit the Soviets in June 41 routing Soviet units were still appearing to the Soviet front two weeks after the start of hostilities. Entire routed units do not retreat as a whole and it can take them a very long time to get back to friendly units. They certainly don't go full bore because they are trying to avoid enemy units. Evade and Escape. I guess they call it SERE now. Not sure if it was taught at all in the WW2 era.


Except for the stand at Saint Vith where the US Army held the Germans for a day and could possibly have held the for a lot longer. Then the units were told to retreat and they promply did retreat fast. Routed units and retreated units are different.

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