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Default traded resources - 2/23/2020 10:26:47 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2322
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: online
When talking to MWIF players the most annoying thing they complain about is the Commonwealth trade problem and the frustration about getting things right, even tough Steve has reduced the trade problem with each major release.

Quotes like
“I was under the impression that resource transportation and trade would work with this version. But I feel that it is worse than ever. Spent 3 hours this morning on it and now I am close to throwing things around me and pulling out my own hair. Very long time since I've been this frustrated and angry.

And “I have to clear the routs several times to get the resource to go where I want!!! Why draw trade from India, when Cyprus is free? Very irritating!”

are still common and people like to be able to turn of the MWIF check that no trade agreements are broken!

Well, the problem could be fixed, but its no easy, Trade is complicated code in MWIF.

My suggestion is Default trade resources:

Default traded resources
like MWIF to introduce default traded resources. The idea is that for each trade agreement from a Major power to another Major power, instead of just taking the first one in alphabetical order for the Lending Major power and testing that there is a route for that one, there is a setting to priorities order in which the program tries to take a resource and sent to the order nation. If there are more resources sent than there are priorities order for the program gets back to using the alphabetical order for the excess, the same if there are no routes available.

Below is our draft setting that we think both the players and AIO could get as a default. The setting could be accessible and changed in a new popup window, ex from the Resource Lending window by clicking on an Agreement. See attached jpg.




The benefit would be reduced routing problem for the MWIF program and using less convoy points. Players being happier to get some control over which resource gets sent where. Smarter AIO.

Commonwealth->France
1: Port of Spain, Trinidad (oil)
2: Ndola, Northern Rhodesia
3: Kimberley, South Africa
4: (75,60), Cyprus
5: (110,331), British Guyana
6: Estevan, Canada (oil)

Commonwealth -> China
1: Yenangyaung, Burma (Oil)
2: Larut, Malaya
3: (115,130), Malaya
4: Broken Hill, Australia
5: (90,113), India

France->China
1: Hanoi, Indochina
2: (142, 194), New Caledonia

USA->China
1: (101,151), Philippines
2: Fairbanks, Alaska (Oil)
3: (73,268), USA

France->Commonwealth
1: Bechair, Algeria -> Liverpool
2: Kayes, Senegal -> Birmingham
3: (142, 194), New Caledonia -> Toronto, Canada
4: Hanoi, Indochina -> Calcutta, India


USA->Commonwealth
1: Fairbanks,Alaska (oil)
2: (60,305) USA (oil)
3: (64,281) USA (oil)
4: (70,301) USA (oil)
5: Charleston, USA (oil)
6: (64,313) USA
7: (65,310) USA

USA->France
1: Galveston USA (oil)
2: (71,307) USA
3: (72,306) USA

USA->USSR
1: Fairbanks, Alaska (oil)
2: Wallace, USA
3: (68,281), USA
4: (66,278), USA
5: Phoenix, USA

Commonwealth->USSR
1: (90,106), India
2: (75,60), Cyprus
3: (Petsamo)
4: Estevan, Canada (oil)
5: South Africa





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 2/23/2020 10:32:03 AM >


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Post #: 1
RE: Default traded resources - 2/24/2020 12:45:25 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22063
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
1 - So the player makes his choices on turn #N.

Then on turn #N+1 some of the convoys no longer exist. Or new ones now exist that weren't available last turn and so the player wants to change what is used to fulfill trade agreements. The mix of old and new decisions are in conflict (e.g., a resource is double committed (the Alaska oil goes to both the Commonwealth and the USSR).

2 - Or the player chooses two "resource to destination routes" that both require a single convoy in a sea area.

3 - Or the resource to destination routes use all available convoys in a sea area so no "build point to destination route" is possible for fulfilling a trade agreement (e.g., the US to Japan trade agreement fails).

I have seen all 3 of these situations in saved games where players complained that the program didn't do what they wanted.

The cause of the frustration is that players can rarely hold in their heads all the Commonwealth convoy routes. That includes not only for fulfilling trade agreements, but also all the routes required to get resources owned by the Commonwealth to the Commonwealth factories. It is even more difficult to remember what you did last turn and how to edit the routes given the changes on the map of hex control, states of war, etc. When Japan closes the Burma Road, any existing Commonwealth, US, and French trade agreements to China become impossible to fulfill. Things get messy immediately. When Germany DOWs the Netherlands, the status of the NEI oil changes, messing things up. When Japan DOWs the Commonwealth, the same thing happens.

What the rules of the game impose upon what can go where, combined with the ever changing status of the world/map, makes routing resources 'automatically' difficult.

===

I know that this is a problem, and I continue to work on improvements. Your suggestion is helpful. I'll throw it into the mix of things to consider reduce the pain of figuring out how to 'optimize' resource allocations and convoy routes.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 2/24/2020 12:47:20 AM >


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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 2
RE: Default traded resources - 2/24/2020 12:45:47 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3169
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
I have stopped trying to re-route things, and now just follow Ronnie's instructions in the modding topic and make some adjustments (usually to the CW and USSR) to build points and saved oil.

(FEOR - https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4136832&mpage=2&key= ]

I am curious though, has anyone sand-boxed this (with current code) to remove all trade agreements and see if it then works per player defaults? I am thinking of a test where the CW declares war on Venezuela and Persia, and all temporary agreements are cancelled, so the CW has zero trade agreements.

Unfortunately, given Ronnie's description of the routing of the Malayan resources in his thread, and my own experiences which are similar, I am not sure if it is all coming from trade agreement routing.

_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
- Cdr Spock


Ian R

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 3
RE: Default traded resources - 2/24/2020 12:54:26 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3169
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

1 - So the player makes his choices on turn #N.

Then on turn #N+1 some of the convoys no longer exist. Or new ones now exist that weren't available last turn and so the player wants to change what is used to fulfill trade agreements. The mix of old and new decisions are in conflict (e.g., a resource is double committed (the Alaska oil goes to both the Commonwealth and the USSR).

2 - Or the player chooses two "resource to destination routes" that both require a single convoy in a sea area.

3 - Or the resource to destination routes use all available convoys in a sea area so no "build point to destination route" is possible for fulfilling a trade agreement (e.g., the US to Japan trade agreement fails).

I have seen all 3 of these situations in saved games where players complained that the program didn't do what they wanted.

The cause of the frustration is that players can rarely hold in their heads all the Commonwealth convoy routes. That includes not only for fulfilling trade agreements, but also all the routes required to get resources owned by the Commonwealth to the Commonwealth factories. It is even more difficult to remember what you did last turn and how to edit the routes given the changes on the map of hex control, states of war, etc. When Japan closes the Burma Road, any existing Commonwealth, US, and French trade agreements to China become impossible to fulfill. Things get messy immediately. When Germany DOWs the Netherlands, the status of the NEI oil changes, messing things up. When Japan DOWs the Commonwealth, the same thing happens.

What the rules of the game impose upon what can go where, combined with the ever changing status of the world/map, makes routing resources 'automatically' difficult.

===

I know that this is a problem, and I continue to work on improvements. Your suggestion is helpful. I'll throw it into the mix of things to consider reduce the pain of figuring out how to 'optimize' resource allocations and convoy routes.


Would it be possible to have a "clear all convoy routes" button on the production planning screen? The idea being that you start with everything idle - a clean canvas as it were.

_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
- Cdr Spock


Ian R

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 4
RE: Default traded resources - 2/24/2020 1:46:15 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8729
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

1 - So the player makes his choices on turn #N.

Then on turn #N+1 some of the convoys no longer exist. Or new ones now exist that weren't available last turn and so the player wants to change what is used to fulfill trade agreements. The mix of old and new decisions are in conflict (e.g., a resource is double committed (the Alaska oil goes to both the Commonwealth and the USSR).

2 - Or the player chooses two "resource to destination routes" that both require a single convoy in a sea area.

3 - Or the resource to destination routes use all available convoys in a sea area so no "build point to destination route" is possible for fulfilling a trade agreement (e.g., the US to Japan trade agreement fails).

I have seen all 3 of these situations in saved games where players complained that the program didn't do what they wanted.

The cause of the frustration is that players can rarely hold in their heads all the Commonwealth convoy routes. That includes not only for fulfilling trade agreements, but also all the routes required to get resources owned by the Commonwealth to the Commonwealth factories. It is even more difficult to remember what you did last turn and how to edit the routes given the changes on the map of hex control, states of war, etc. When Japan closes the Burma Road, any existing Commonwealth, US, and French trade agreements to China become impossible to fulfill. Things get messy immediately. When Germany DOWs the Netherlands, the status of the NEI oil changes, messing things up. When Japan DOWs the Commonwealth, the same thing happens.

What the rules of the game impose upon what can go where, combined with the ever changing status of the world/map, makes routing resources 'automatically' difficult.

===

I know that this is a problem, and I continue to work on improvements. Your suggestion is helpful. I'll throw it into the mix of things to consider reduce the pain of figuring out how to 'optimize' resource allocations and convoy routes.


Would it be possible to have a "clear all convoy routes" button on the production planning screen? The idea being that you start with everything idle - a clean canvas as it were.


Although that would help, you can always remove the default settings for all resources manually and then let the computer recompute things.

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 5
RE: Default traded resources - 2/25/2020 2:18:13 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3169
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Would it be possible to have a "clear all convoy routes" button on the production planning screen? The idea being that you start with everything idle - a clean canvas as it were.


Although that would help, you can always remove the default settings for all resources manually and then let the computer recompute things.


This is true, and it only takes 5-10 minutes per nation (referring to the US and CW), but the trade agreement screen doesn't always co-operate. You find yourself flicking between the CW and the US and it is problematical.

I had a particular recent problem where the PI resource would not transit through US CPs in the SCS and BoB to fulfill a TS required for China. The cause was a CW resource from India being TS to the USSR. Instead of going through the Arabian Sea and Persian Gulf, the CW resource was using the US CPs and then going all the way around the Pacific Rim and via the Aleutians to Vladivostok causing a cascade of shipment failures. Perhaps it trumped the US PI resource because that could be sent from the East Coast around Africa to the BoB. Cue another cascade of failures. A single click wipe clean of all allied screens (including trade assignments of resources) would be a simpler starting point.



_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
- Cdr Spock


Ian R

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 6
RE: Default traded resources - 2/25/2020 1:45:58 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8729
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
Strange. I think I would like to see a gamesave for this one, so I can check why this is happening...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 7
RE: Default traded resources - 2/26/2020 1:59:05 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3169
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
Unfortunately, I have gone past there and didn't keep one. I edited the save to compensate the CW for some lost BP and moved on.

_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
- Cdr Spock


Ian R

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 8
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