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Dense terrain CV modifier

 
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Dense terrain CV modifier - 2/20/2020 10:22:26 PM   
eskuche

 

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Asked on discord but would like input here too. Not sure if I'm missing something.
Why am I getting apparent dense terrain modifier (v1.12.03, enhanced CV) showing both in unit details and on-screen for BOTH motorized division and panzer division?
Am I missing the timing of the dense terrain multiplier, e.g., during battle but not before on displayed CV?

Relevant manual sections:
15.3.1.1. Dense Terrain
Some terrain is more suited to infantry combat than armored combat. A Dense Terrain modifier (15.6.3.2) is applied to ground
element’s CV during combat (attacker and defender alike) in mountain, rough, swamp and heavy wood terrain as well as in cities with
population rating greater than 14 and forts level 3 and above.
Ground elements of class “infantry”, “mech infantry”, and “infantry weapons” have their CV doubled. Ground elements of class “SP
Weapon”, “Armored Car”, “SP Artillery”, and “AFV” have their CV halved.


15.6.3.2. Dense Terrain CV Modifier
AFV and combat vehicle type ground elements will have their CV reduced by half when attacking or defending in urban, heavy woods,
swamp, broken and mountain hexes. Infantry type ground elements will have their CV doubled when in urban, heavy woods, swamp,
broken and mountain hexes as well as in fort level 3 and higher. (Dense Terrain 15.3.1.1).
Mountain units have their CV doubled in mountain hexes, no matter what the weather.




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RE: Dense terrain CV modifier - 2/21/2020 12:31:38 AM   
xhoel


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I think the reason is that the dense terrain modifiers are only applied in combat.

This is explicitly said in the manual part that you quoted: "Some terrain is more suited to infantry combat than armored combat. A Dense Terrain modifier (15.6.3.2) is applied to ground element’s CV during combat (attacker and defender alike)..."

It is the same reason why Infantry divisions will show their normal attacking CVs when in a hex swamp, but those CV values will double when they attack or why panzer divisions show a high defensive CV in swamps but once the battle begins, their CV falls by quite a bit.

Also, light woods are not dense terrain, and only certain cities are dense terrain, not all of them.

Cheers!

< Message edited by xhoel -- 2/21/2020 12:39:31 AM >


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(in reply to eskuche)
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RE: Dense terrain CV modifier - 2/21/2020 12:38:49 AM   
eskuche

 

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That makes sense. However, what doesn't make sense is why both motorized infantry AND panzer divisions are showing double defensive CV in dense terrain. If your last sentence is true, the penalty should apply to their clear (1x showing and battle CV) defensive CV. Instead in effect this would make their CV in dense terrain defender 0.5 penalty * 2x showing CV = 1x battle CV. Could this be because infantry will double their attack (during combat), thus making the final armored CV: dense terrain defender 0.5 penalty * dense terrain infantry attacker 0.5 penalty * 2x showing CV = 0.5x battle CV?

Really hard to wrap one's mind around the weird programming decisions made to make the numbers come out true. This is assuming that infantry–armored battles will have a four-fold difference compared to their clear terrain ratios. Might be better just to accept the math as true and not look at these numbers...

< Message edited by eskuche -- 2/21/2020 12:41:37 AM >

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RE: Dense terrain CV modifier - 2/21/2020 12:43:22 AM   
xhoel


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I don't know why that is exactly, but any hex is better than a clear hex when it comes to defending CV. The penalty does not apply to the whole unit, just to the specific elements noted above. could be that the elements even each other out, but like i said the dense and double dense modifiers only come into play when a battle is going on.

In normal conditions, display CV is the sum of terrain modifiers + fortifications (and weather modifier in case of mud or first blizzard), which is why you would see the defensive CVs increase.

< Message edited by xhoel -- 2/21/2020 12:44:31 AM >


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RE: Dense terrain CV modifier - 2/21/2020 12:51:37 AM   
eskuche

 

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Ah, that's it. It's the default terrain defense bonus independent from denseness. Thanks!

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RE: Dense terrain CV modifier - 2/21/2020 12:52:40 AM   
xhoel


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Glad I could help.

Cheers!

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RE: Dense terrain CV modifier - 2/21/2020 2:29:14 AM   
Model1950

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

I think the reason is that the dense terrain modifiers are only applied in combat.

This is explicitly said in the manual part that you quoted: "Some terrain is more suited to infantry combat than armored combat. A Dense Terrain modifier (15.6.3.2) is applied to ground element’s CV during combat (attacker and defender alike)..."

It is the same reason why Infantry divisions will show their normal attacking CVs when in a hex swamp, but those CV values will double when they attack or why panzer divisions show a high defensive CV in swamps but once the battle begins, their CV falls by quite a bit.

Also, light woods are not dense terrain, and only certain cities are dense terrain, not all of them.

Cheers!


(in reply to xhoel)
Post #: 7
RE: Dense terrain CV modifier - 2/21/2020 2:30:35 AM   
Model1950

 

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ORIGINAL: xhoel

I think the reason is that the dense terrain modifiers are only applied in combat.

ORIGINAL: xhoel

I don't know why that is exactly,

So you have know idea?

I will take D-mans( german forums), MT or morveals word on how the game works and not I thk or I don't know why exactly.



< Message edited by Model1950 -- 2/21/2020 2:36:26 AM >

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RE: Dense terrain CV modifier - 2/21/2020 11:38:41 AM   
xhoel


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If you are going to be sassy towards another poster for trying to help a player figure something out, you might as well learn how the quote function works.

And also learn to type properly. It's not "know idea", it's "no idea".

I wasn't talking to you anyway and I don't care one bit that you won't take my word. But judging by the other posts on the forums you seem to lack proper manners or just like trolling.

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RE: Dense terrain CV modifier - 2/21/2020 6:19:59 PM   
king171717


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Model1950

ORIGINAL: xhoel

I think the reason is that the dense terrain modifiers are only applied in combat.

ORIGINAL: xhoel

I don't know why that is exactly,

So you have know idea?

I will take D-mans( german forums), MT or morveals word on how the game works and not I thk or I don't know why exactly.




He explained how it worked.

Its great when people ask questions and people are nice to respond to them. I definitely learn from them too!

< Message edited by king171717 -- 2/21/2020 6:22:18 PM >

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RE: Dense terrain CV modifier - 3/2/2020 9:24:08 AM   
morvael


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One thing is fort modifier that includes terrain modifier (for example light woods is equal to level 1 fort), which is shown on the counter even outside of combat as an increase to defensive CV; this applied to the whole unit.

Dense terrain modifier is included in CV of units only during combat (when the game knows in which hex the battle occurs), and is applied on ground element basis, so while AFVs in a Panzer Divison suffer a penalty, their infantry gets a bonus.

(in reply to king171717)
Post #: 11
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