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Directive 21. - 2/19/2020 9:09:48 PM   
carll11


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First; a hand salute and then my covers off re; Steve and the band of brothers who have created Dir 21 and the host of games here. I have modded tiller/DC games for a decade and that's literally childs play compared to TOAW.

I have DLed and installed Dir 21 4.6 I have played 3 turns...I have questions,of course. I am new at TOAW, the game play is very different ala mechanics from say Tillersor Vics DC games(Decisive campaigns ) etc.

So, I have read the entire thread here, the Dir 21 play testers thread;

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1936216&mpage=1&key=

My Q-s;

HQ and Korp Integrity=supply?

supply- is the div HQ, supply wise more important to the div. units than a Korp HQ?

Korp Integrity- Selecting a Korp. doesn't highlight the divs under it....how do ya'll keep track? ( aside from the army grp. colors of course)


Brandenburgers - they can air transport 10 units behind the 'front'?( gentlemens agreement) How do they get supplied?


Playtest- looking at elmer-

" Axis Human only, Soviet PO only (do not start in hotseat mode or PBEM as events do not trigger properly and it is not balanced for such play) Do not interrupt the Soviet PO turn as this could also trigger events to fire for the PO incorrectly."


It says not to START in hotseat and d21 soviet doesn't like 'playing' as a human( says that in another thread I read), so if I don't move soviet units can I go 'neither player computer' and take a look see without screwing the event modeling etc.?

Rail Lines/damage-

" Rail Damage starts at 0%, goes to 25% on turn 2, to 75% on turn 3, and to 100% on turn 32."

Does that mean if I 'run over' or use a rail line ( for the first time) it 'breaks'(per rail hex) 25% of the time on turn 2, and 100% of the time turn 32 and on? I noticed (I have played to the end of turn 3) if I pick a spot to run over a rail line hex, I can run my units through that hex alone (with amour) but it appears infantry breaks them to?? with a fix rate of one hex per turn via my RR rep. units how in the heck can I possibly get an intact rail line to , well anywhere deep in the game?


ANY Advice would be very much welcomed....



Post #: 1
RE: Directive 21. - 2/20/2020 3:33:26 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Hi Carl - welcome to TOAW! I don't have Vic's or Tiller's games so I can't make comparisons. And Rick is more the authority on D21 as he took over its' development from around v2. But I think he is taking a break so I'll try to give you some answers.

quote:

is the div HQ, supply wise more important to the div. units than a Korp HQ?

This could be true, as units get a supply boost from Cooperative HQ's. In this scenario, because it is so large, we get the opportunity to verify things such as this. For example, at times there will be large areas of inactivity where you can test which things will improve supply by monitoring a unit(s) supply level turn after turn while moving HQ's and Supply Units closer/farther.

quote:

Selecting a Korp. doesn't highlight the divs under it....how do ya'll keep track?

TOAW won't do it for you, so I use a txt. document with an OOB on it

quote:

Brandenburgers - How do they get supplied?

If they can't trace a LOS, Special Forces get minimal supply, but it is so little it may not be obvious.

quote:

Playtest- looking at elmer-

Play with TOAW IV's Variable Initiative = OFF and you can ignore references to Hotseat Mode.

quote:

Does that mean if I 'run over' or use a rail line ( for the first time) it 'breaks'(per rail hex) 25% of the time on turn 2, and 100% of the time turn 32 and on?

Yes.

quote:

with a fix rate of one hex per turn via my RR rep. units how in the heck can I possibly get an intact rail line to , well anywhere deep in the game?

You have multiple RR Repair units, so you must concentrate them. Generally, several repairing one line for each AG [initially].

(in reply to carll11)
Post #: 2
RE: Directive 21. - 2/20/2020 9:11:35 PM   
carll11


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thank you Steve for the clarifications and thank you for the welcome!

One further please;

"You have multiple RR Repair units, so you must concentrate them. Generally, several repairing one line for each AG [initially]. "

The RR rep units, I move one till it cannot go any further because the line is broken, I leave it embarked and it repairs the line forward of it by it appears 1 hex, by adding another one or even 2 RR rep units in that hex, it seems you are saying it will repair broken rails in hexs further down the line? 3-4 hexes ahead with broken lines? Did I understand that correctly?

< Message edited by carll11 -- 2/20/2020 9:12:57 PM >

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 3
RE: Directive 21. - 2/20/2020 11:13:25 PM   
carll11


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Annnd one more;

"TOAW won't do it for you, so I use a txt. document with an OOB on it "

I am having an issue finding what divs report to what Korp......I click on the unit then show formation report, then inside that I have tried the choice- formation OOB etc.....it doesn't appear you can do it from the div. level back up the chain of comm...

(in reply to carll11)
Post #: 4
RE: Directive 21. - 2/21/2020 1:58:58 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Each RR has a chance to repair a rail, so the more in one area the more chances of repairing.

quote:

I am having an issue finding what divs report to what Korp

TOAW has no function like this, there is no hierarchy. All of the German Div's in this scenario are 'independent'. Some of us [such as me] like to keep a Korps organization but this does nothing other than make me happy. It's especially un-important as the scenario progresses because most divisions historically switched Korps often.

(in reply to carll11)
Post #: 5
RE: Directive 21. - 2/21/2020 10:40:18 AM   
cathar1244

 

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Steve, point of curiosity.

When you write the divisions are "independent", are they their own formation (that is, a formation with a single unit)?

I've wondered how that would affect gameplay in scenarios in which the number of units was small enough to have single unit formations.

Cheers

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
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RE: Directive 21. - 2/21/2020 12:44:52 PM   
carll11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Each RR has a chance to repair a rail, so the more in one area the more chances of repairing.

quote:

I am having an issue finding what divs report to what Korp

TOAW has no function like this, there is no hierarchy. All of the German Div's in this scenario are 'independent'. Some of us [such as me] like to keep a Korps organization but this does nothing other than make me happy. It's especially un-important as the scenario progresses because most divisions historically switched Korps often.


Ah, I see said the blind man, thx!


(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 7
RE: Directive 21. - 2/21/2020 7:04:18 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Click on a unit and hit F to bring up the Formation that unit is in. A Formation can contain 1-32 units. Formations are not connected to anything, they are on their own. How they affect gameplay is multi-faceted

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 8
RE: Directive 21. - 2/23/2020 2:17:45 PM   
carll11


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On turn 5. My RR repair units don't seem very efficient.....I had doubled up 2 on 2 separate hexes to hopefully enure repair and neither repaired a link.


What are the %'s for repair? I know there are turns where there are limits to how many can be repaired but not on turn 5(?)



< Message edited by carll11 -- 2/23/2020 2:18:03 PM >

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 9
RE: Directive 21. - 2/24/2020 12:53:40 AM   
sPzAbt653


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The manual says a chance, it doesn't give the percentage. The more broken rails the higher the chance of repairs happening in an area where you don't notice them. As said before, concentration of the Bautrupp's is the key. Two on one line isn't much in the early going. Think about first an auto-computer 'chance', then you have 15 Bautrupp's scattered around and each of them with only an individual 'chance'. Then consider the huge advances in the opening turns and how many broken lines there are. It may seem they aren't working.

(in reply to carll11)
Post #: 10
RE: Directive 21. - 2/24/2020 6:00:19 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Click on a unit and hit F to bring up the Formation that unit is in. A Formation can contain 1-32 units. Formations are not connected to anything, they are on their own. How they affect gameplay is multi-faceted


Check, understand that. I wasn't very clear in my thoughts.

Formations IIRC give us a lever on supply distribution. Single-unit formations might offer some options for fine-grained supply control.

But I am not sure if that might induce a lot of unintended side effects.

Cheers

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Post #: 11
RE: Directive 21. - 2/24/2020 4:39:12 PM   
carll11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The manual says a chance, it doesn't give the percentage. The more broken rails the higher the chance of repairs happening in an area where you don't notice them. As said before, concentration of the Bautrupp's is the key. Two on one line isn't much in the early going. Think about first an auto-computer 'chance', then you have 15 Bautrupp's scattered around and each of them with only an individual 'chance'. Then consider the huge advances in the opening turns and how many broken lines there are. It may seem they aren't working.



Wow, gadzooks, do you mean that repairs don't just take place in the/an immediate hex in front of the RR rep. unit? But further down the line?

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 12
RE: Directive 21. - 2/24/2020 6:05:13 PM   
carll11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: carll11


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The manual says a chance, it doesn't give the percentage. The more broken rails the higher the chance of repairs happening in an area where you don't notice them. As said before, concentration of the Bautrupp's is the key. Two on one line isn't much in the early going. Think about first an auto-computer 'chance', then you have 15 Bautrupp's scattered around and each of them with only an individual 'chance'. Then consider the huge advances in the opening turns and how many broken lines there are. It may seem they aren't working.



Wow, gadzooks, do you mean that repairs don't just take place in the/an immediate hex in front of the RR rep. unit? But further down the line?






Steve, thank you anyway, ignore my last............ I went back and reread that big Dir 21 thread from 2010( I actually do try and find answers for myself first before asking

,



quote:



quote:

... is there a chance of a repair two or even three hexes away?



Yes. Its based on percentages, so the more repair units that you have near a location, the better the chance for multiple repairs. Watch what happens over the longer run (10 turns minimum), because results from just a couple turns could be deceiving.

(in reply to requiem72)

(in reply to carll11)
Post #: 13
RE: Directive 21. - 2/24/2020 6:32:43 PM   
Hellen_slith


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Hope you all don't mind my chiming in here, re: the q

"repairs don't just take place in the/an immediate hex in front of the RR rep. unit? But further down the line?":

It has been my experience in playing this scene, that this is correct.
Note well the advice that RR repairs may occur in back of your lines, where you do not expect.

RR repairs for the Germans, esp. in the first phase of Barbarossa,
may take place farther back from the Bautrupp units ....

As the game progresses, and the "rear area" RR repairs are completed,
then you will see repair taking place at the areas where Bautrupps are placed.

My take on it is, that you might want to focus the RR repair units farther back ... complete those,
and then focus on forward areas.

I hope this helps!

< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 2/24/2020 6:33:43 PM >

(in reply to carll11)
Post #: 14
RE: Directive 21. - 2/24/2020 11:36:53 PM   
carll11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

Hope you all don't mind my chiming in here, re: the q

"repairs don't just take place in the/an immediate hex in front of the RR rep. unit? But further down the line?":

It has been my experience in playing this scene, that this is correct.
Note well the advice that RR repairs may occur in back of your lines, where you do not expect.

RR repairs for the Germans, esp. in the first phase of Barbarossa,
may take place farther back from the Bautrupp units ....

As the game progresses, and the "rear area" RR repairs are completed,
then you will see repair taking place at the areas where Bautrupps are placed.

My take on it is, that you might want to focus the RR repair units farther back ... complete those,
and then focus on forward areas.

I hope this helps!



Thank you Hellen-Slith, any and all advice is welcome.

I have played 2 more turns and it does appear some lines are being repaired, I swear it appears that some have been repaired further down but not immediately in front of my RR units on the line I have them sitting on, naturally I'd be happier if they built in front of my RR's and so I could just get my main lines repaired. There are so many branch liens I would rather wait on, I hope they dont waste time on those.

I have concentrated 3 stacks of 3, and a stack of 2 ( 11 is all I have ) not inc. the 2 Italian RR units which I have concentrated as well.

One for each AG and main line axis I have selected that goes in the straightest paths I figured out to Leningrad, smolensk>moscow, kiev( then Kharkov) and Dnepropetrovsk , the Italians will build towards Nikolayev.


ON another note, now far back or, forward do you recommend I keep my AG supply units? I have them about 8-10 hexes back from the my main points of each AG's attack main attack axis, on a rail line, as main roads are sparse.

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 15
RE: Directive 21. - 2/24/2020 11:48:20 PM   
Hellen_slith


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iirc, the "mobile" supply units that crop up,
are best used near the front.

Where you decide to place them,
will much depend on "supply radius" that is available.
supply radius is shown in scenario notes prior to each turn
(says something like, "supply radius = 8" or something like that)
that is radius of the supply units

The AGS / AGN / AGC "dedicated" supply units, that are attached to XXXXX Korps HQ,
those are the ones you want to keep near the rail head / near the HQ.

The others (the "mobiles") you can move around to "needful" areas, w/in supply radius,
... hard to describe, but there was a thread about those units, too, somewhere ...

will try to find and post the link about those.
But the "mobile" supplies, you can move those around to areas needing most supply.

< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 2/24/2020 11:52:29 PM >

(in reply to carll11)
Post #: 16
RE: Directive 21. - 2/25/2020 1:02:32 AM   
carll11


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Joined: 11/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

iirc, the "mobile" supply units that crop up,
are best used near the front.

Where you decide to place them,
will much depend on "supply radius" that is available.
supply radius is shown in scenario notes prior to each turn
(says something like, "supply radius = 8" or something like that)
that is radius of the supply units

The AGS / AGN / AGC "dedicated" supply units, that are attached to XXXXX Korps HQ,
those are the ones you want to keep near the rail head / near the HQ.

The others (the "mobiles") you can move around to "needful" areas, w/in supply radius,
... hard to describe, but there was a thread about those units, too, somewhere ...

will try to find and post the link about those.
But the "mobile" supplies, you can move those around to areas needing most supply.



Understood thx!Any links helpful

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 17
RE: Directive 21. - 2/25/2020 1:44:25 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

naturally I'd be happier if they built in front of my RR's and so I could just get my main lines repaired.

Just to mention, that we playtested this to make sure that historical railheads could be reached. This was a main focal point at the beginning of this scenario's development. Historically, everybody was arguing about who gets priority and this wasn't resolved until after the winter. So in the scenario, we don't have full control. We know it is aggravating but it is a point of realism.

(in reply to carll11)
Post #: 18
RE: Directive 21. - 2/25/2020 4:17:19 PM   
carll11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

naturally I'd be happier if they built in front of my RR's and so I could just get my main lines repaired.

Just to mention, that we playtested this to make sure that historical railheads could be reached. This was a main focal point at the beginning of this scenario's development. Historically, everybody was arguing about who gets priority and this wasn't resolved until after the winter. So in the scenario, we don't have full control. We know it is aggravating but it is a point of realism.



roger that....

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
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RE: Directive 21. - 2/27/2020 1:52:03 AM   
larryfulkerson


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I've been known to disband the Finn RR engineering unit so that it doesn't subtract any "chances" from the other RR engineers.

_____________________________

"Before you diagnose yourself depressed or having a low self-esteme first look around you to see if you aren't just surrounded by assholes."

(in reply to carll11)
Post #: 20
RE: Directive 21. - 2/28/2020 5:32:29 PM   
carll11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I've been known to disband the Finn RR engineering unit so that it doesn't subtract any "chances" from the other RR engineers.



Ha!

I was actually contemplating that, arent there 2 up north of Leningrad?

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RE: Directive 21. - 2/28/2020 10:45:15 PM   
Hellen_slith


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That is an interesting strategy, I never thought of trying that.

There is (if I recall) at least ONE German Bautrupp that has always been "stuck" for me in Finland....nowhere to go, that is.

I think there is at least one other Bautrupp that has always been "stuck" for me up there,
and of course the Rumanians have always been troublesome for me. At least at the outset.

Interesting strategy to disband them, and maybe get better repair elsewhere?
Not sure, but that is an interesting thought.

(in reply to carll11)
Post #: 22
RE: Directive 21. - 2/29/2020 3:17:02 AM   
sPzAbt653


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I move them to an area where they aren't needed [at the time], close to a Supply Point. Disbanding strikes me as a rickety tactic because you never know where they will regenerate.

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Post #: 23
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