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OT--Midway Movie - 2/18/2020 11:56:25 PM   
wolfclan

 

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Attached are the Director of Naval History comments on the movie--scene by scene. It is a long read because the comments are on the director's cut, the rough cut, and the script in that order. His opening line: "The recent Midway movie was a commercial success, and for the first time in decades a sizable number of the American public had the rare opportunity to view a mostly-accurate movie about real U.S. Navy heroes instead of comic book heroes, and for that reason alone I believe the movie producers did a great public service." I learned a lot from the Admiral's criticisms, and like many of you, I have read a number of books that covered Midway, including SHATTERED SWORD.

Ron


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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/19/2020 9:02:54 PM   
Scott_USN

 

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Yeah I have been waiting on Amazon to rent it for a day and watch it some Saturday, don't want to purchase it. I have heard good things about it, the best comment I seen on the movie was that where 1976 Midway was a high level look at the operation the new Midway is more of a sailor/airman view of the battle.

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/20/2020 12:40:56 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

where 1976 Midway was a high level look at the operation


At the time of the 1976 movie, the California (mostly) mistreatment of the Japanese-Americans living there was something of a cause celebre in the American press so the movie added in a totally irrelevant love triangle involving a Nisei woman, a USN fighter pilot and his father a senior USN CINCPAC staff officer who thinks his son should not be getting involved with a Nise1.

In addition the movie pretty much swallows whole Lcdr Fujita Mitsuo's version of events as published in " Midway: The Battle that Doomed Japan" which had the IJN within seconds of launching an overwhelming strike against the USN carriers (and tends to excuse any failings in IJN decision making).

The biggest failing in the 2019 movie was the complete omission of any participation in the battle by any USN/USMC fighters. According to "Shattered Sword" just as the dive bombers showed up 1/2 of the Japanese combat air patrol was fighting with 6 Yorktown fighters that were supporting the attack of Yorktown's Torpedo 3. Combined with the attack of Torpedo 3 all of the Japanese CAP was fighting at low altitude when the dive bombers showed up at high altitude.


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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/20/2020 1:14:33 AM   
Anachro


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I watched the recent movie Midway and while I appreciate attempts to portray the battle in a more than superficial way, I found the visuals to be rather cartoonish, couldn't suspend my disbelief at times. In some ways, the 1976 Midway felt more real to me, and we all know the warts that movie had. The dialogue was corny at time, but let's be honest the budget for this film meant is was gonna be somewhere in the range between a B list and A list movie.

Another movie I watched recently which, for the most part, was a bit of a wacky film but nonetheless had an amazing opening sequence was the Japanese film Archimedes no Taisen, or the Great War of Archimedes. The movie is about the building of the BB Yamamoto and a conspiracy surrounding it, which is largely theatrical in nature. The opening sequence though is that of Operation Tengo where Yamato was sunk on its suicide mission towards Okinawa. Honestly, if no other part of the movie was good, that opening was worth the whole thing. I recommend you all watch that film when it gets English subtitles for that scene alone. It's probably a 10 minute sequence.

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/20/2020 12:43:47 PM   
Fishbed

 

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Very interesting, thanks!

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/20/2020 3:53:59 PM   
Scott_USN

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

where 1976 Midway was a high level look at the operation


At the time of the 1976 movie, the California (mostly) mistreatment of the Japanese-Americans living there was something of a cause celebre in the American press so the movie added in a totally irrelevant love triangle involving a Nisei woman, a USN fighter pilot and his father a senior USN CINCPAC staff officer who thinks his son should not be getting involved with a Nise1.

In addition the movie pretty much swallows whole Lcdr Fujita Mitsuo's version of events as published in " Midway: The Battle that Doomed Japan" which had the IJN within seconds of launching an overwhelming strike against the USN carriers (and tends to excuse any failings in IJN decision making).

The biggest failing in the 2019 movie was the complete omission of any participation in the battle by any USN/USMC fighters. According to "Shattered Sword" just as the dive bombers showed up 1/2 of the Japanese combat air patrol was fighting with 6 Yorktown fighters that were supporting the attack of Yorktown's Torpedo 3. Combined with the attack of Torpedo 3 all of the Japanese CAP was fighting at low altitude when the dive bombers showed up at high altitude.


Interesting, I forgot the love triangle issue in the original Midway, useless fluff. Been a long time since i have watched it. I didn't know they didn't show the fighters especially the fighters from Midway itself. Granted I have not seen the movie yet.

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/20/2020 5:23:55 PM   
Macclan5


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Both movies have "historical accuracy flaws" to major and minor degrees.

Having said that - gotten that out of the way.

Personally I give credit to the 1976 movie for vastly portraying the 'uncertainty' better. Simply despite the code breaking there was a lot of uncertainty. The Japanese had earned a very formidable reputation by the time of Midway and Nimitz's decision making was courageous. The earlier movie portrays this 'uncertainty' well and better in my humble opinion.

(HYPO vs Washington, the actual conjecture in code breaking, the water distiller 'en-clare message' etc.

The 2019 movies is more 'Dick Best' or hero focused from the cast of stars. However from the get go it seems to portray an inevitable IJN defeat based upon the attitude of the main characters.



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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/22/2020 7:40:22 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I didn't know they didn't show the fighters especially the fighters from Midway itself


The Midway fighters, mostly Buffaloes (IIRC, 21 Buffs, 7 Wildcats), were all held back to defend the island, they were handled 'roughly' by the Japanese. Midway's bombers all flew sans escorts.


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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/22/2020 9:07:03 PM   
Scott_USN

 

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Watched it this morning, good movie not over dramatic and seemed realistic. What those men did at Midway was incredible, those poor Devastator pilots never had a chance what bravery.

I don't think I seen one US fighter at all, lacking in a bit of knowledge about the battle on operational level did all the bombers go without escort? Was there some idea SBD 2s could fight their way in? I know the SBD was used for CAP and shot down bombers on more than one occasion.

Only thing I felt cheated on was they didn't portray the counter attack on the US carrier group. Which would have been where the US Fighters were on CAP I assume but didn't stop them.

Over all good movie great actors, Quaid as Halsey was spot on. Would recommend to people.

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/22/2020 9:18:58 PM   
Scott_USN

 

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Were those B26 Marauders bombing?

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 1:14:37 AM   
geofflambert


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They were Marauders. There were Wildcats escorting (in reality, not the movie). The SBD attacks looked a bit too much like they were trying to remake Star Wars. Too crowded.

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 5:08:16 AM   
spence

 

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The 2019 movie sorta combined the attacks by Midway's B26s and B17s. In reality the B26s were jury rigged to carry 1 torpedo each and attacked at low altitude and the B17s attacked with bombs fr0m high altitude. Several famous pictures of their misses at Midway exist.

The Enterprise dive bombers were launched with fighter cover but the fighters got separated and actually followed Hornet's Torpedo 8 to the Japanese fleet. Since they were 15000 feet or so above Torpedo 8 Torpedo 8 disappeared and attacked beneath the cloud layer. The 10 fighters of Fighting 6 never heard Torpedo 8 on their radios and after a while returned to their carrier as they were low on fuel.

The only strike that had actual fighter cover was the Yorktown's strike which arrived all together with Torpedo 3, Bombing 3 and six F4Fs that covered Torpedo 3's attack on Hiryu. The Japanese CAP engaged the torpedo bombers and pretty much ignored the dive bombers of Bombing 3 (which blasted Soryu). The 6 F4Fs attracted about half of the Japanese CAP onto themselves and devised the so-called Thach Weave ad hoc during this fight (they were commanded by Lcdr J Thach). The F4Fs lost one of their number but shot down 5 or so Zeroes. Unfortunately they could not keep the other half of the Japanese CAP from savaging the torpedo bombers. Coincidentally the Enterprise dive bombers showed up at the same time as Yorktown's strike.

Hornets strike of dive bombers and fighters missed the show all together and most of the fighters had to ditch due to lack of fuel.


< Message edited by spence -- 2/23/2020 5:11:05 AM >

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 1:17:13 PM   
Canoerebel


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I haven't seen the movie, but my 25-year-old son saw it last week. He doesn't know enough WWII history to realize (or really, to care) that the movie does or doesn't portray the role of the Navy fighters correctly or which class of bombers did what. That didn't matter to him. What mattered was that, in his word, the CGI was awful. He says the movie is a major dud.

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 3:12:02 PM   
Anachro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I haven't seen the movie, but my 25-year-old son saw it last week. He doesn't know enough WWII history to realize (or really, to care) that the movie does or doesn't portray the role of the Navy fighters correctly or which class of bombers did what. That didn't matter to him. What mattered was that, in his word, the CGI was awful. He says the movie is a major dud.


Given that I am closer in age to your son (hey, I'm 30!) and at the risk of sounding like one of those simpletons that just cares about "purty things" and graphics, I will have to agree with your son. The atrocious quality of the CGI very much distracted me from the other parts of the movie. At times, it felt like a B-list movie, though one with a big budget. This is why I said that even with all its historical warts I somewhat preferred the '76 movie: I wasn't constantly distracted by obviously fake visuals.

< Message edited by Anachro -- 2/23/2020 3:13:15 PM >

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 3:38:56 PM   
spence

 

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Cut scenes from "Tora, Tora, Tora", F6Fs and simulated A6M2s launching from Essex class carriers, no attacks by any Midway bombers, totally fluff Nisei love story and the "the only reason you guys won was you were lucky" storyboard by Fuchida Mitsuo might be considered historical warts by some.

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 3:53:44 PM   
RangerJoe


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I would say that they used what they had. Since no Japanese carriers survived the Midway battle, they could not use those carriers.

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 6:18:34 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_USN

Were those B26 Marauders bombing?


Midway launched its bombers when the incoming raid was detected. IIRC it consisted of, 6-TBF's, 4-B26's, and the rest I forget. They did launch a number of B-17's as well.

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It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 6:22:38 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

There were Wildcats escorting


Not from Midway.

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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 6:24:57 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I haven't seen the movie, but my 25-year-old son saw it last week. He doesn't know enough WWII history to realize (or really, to care) that the movie does or doesn't portray the role of the Navy fighters correctly or which class of bombers did what. That didn't matter to him. What mattered was that, in his word, the CGI was awful. He says the movie is a major dud.


Ah, what does he know? And get off my lawn!!!

< Message edited by rustysi -- 2/23/2020 6:25:34 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Canoerebel)
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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 6:27:38 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I haven't seen the movie, but my 25-year-old son saw it last week. He doesn't know enough WWII history to realize (or really, to care) that the movie does or doesn't portray the role of the Navy fighters correctly or which class of bombers did what. That didn't matter to him. What mattered was that, in his word, the CGI was awful. He says the movie is a major dud.


Given that I am closer in age to your son (hey, I'm 30!) and at the risk of sounding like one of those simpletons that just cares about "purty things" and graphics, I will have to agree with your son. The atrocious quality of the CGI very much distracted me from the other parts of the movie. At times, it felt like a B-list movie, though one with a big budget. This is why I said that even with all its historical warts I somewhat preferred the '76 movie: I wasn't constantly distracted by obviously fake visuals.


Uh, another one. You too, get off my lawn.


Seriously though, you think that with all the money they spend on these things the could come up with good graphics.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 2/23/2020 6:28:10 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 20
RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 7:17:30 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_USN

Were those B26 Marauders bombing?


Midway launched its bombers when the incoming raid was detected. IIRC it consisted of, 6-TBF's, 4-B26's, and the rest I forget. They did launch a number of B-17's as well.


Major Lofton Henderson commanded a US Marine Vindicator (Wind Indicator) squadron which glide bombed - or tried to. He died as did many of his men. The airfield at Guadalcanal was named after him . . .

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 7:18:52 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I haven't seen the movie, but my 25-year-old son saw it last week. He doesn't know enough WWII history to realize (or really, to care) that the movie does or doesn't portray the role of the Navy fighters correctly or which class of bombers did what. That didn't matter to him. What mattered was that, in his word, the CGI was awful. He says the movie is a major dud.


Given that I am closer in age to your son (hey, I'm 30!) and at the risk of sounding like one of those simpletons that just cares about "purty things" and graphics, I will have to agree with your son. The atrocious quality of the CGI very much distracted me from the other parts of the movie. At times, it felt like a B-list movie, though one with a big budget. This is why I said that even with all its historical warts I somewhat preferred the '76 movie: I wasn't constantly distracted by obviously fake visuals.


Uh, another one. You too, get off my lawn.


Seriously though, you think that with all the money they spend on these things the could come up with good graphics.


I haven't seen the movie.

Maybe they wanted an anime or cartoon, or something strange.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 8:56:52 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

There were Wildcats escorting


Not from Midway.


In the movie no escort was mentioned for the attacks from the US carriers. Don't think they showed a Wildcat the whole movie.

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/23/2020 9:53:13 PM   
Scott_USN

 

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20 Buffalo's and 6 F4F were going to escort but the attack by the Japanese were incoming to midway having been picked up by raedar and they were sent to intercept while the bombers flew off without escort. Buffalo's took a beating 13 of them having been shot down and 2 F4Fs were shot down to 5 B5N and 1 A6M lost. All but 2 of the American fighters were written off due to damage. (sounds like my 1942 air battles!)

Interesting the only torpedo hit was from a PBY on a oil tanker at 1AM.

Wiki so not my knowledge.

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/24/2020 4:24:42 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

shot down to 5 B5N and 1 A6M lost


The planes lost by the Japanese in their strike on Midway may have been more significant than is realized since the Midway fighters happened to have concentrated against the Hiryu bombers. When it came to striking back at the Americans after the dive bombers struck the KB Hiryu was only able to put up 10 torpedo bombers and one of those was a refugee from Kaga (IIRC)

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/24/2020 8:16:27 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I haven't seen the movie, but my 25-year-old son saw it last week. He doesn't know enough WWII history to realize (or really, to care) that the movie does or doesn't portray the role of the Navy fighters correctly or which class of bombers did what. That didn't matter to him. What mattered was that, in his word, the CGI was awful. He says the movie is a major dud.


Given that I am closer in age to your son (hey, I'm 30!) and at the risk of sounding like one of those simpletons that just cares about "purty things" and graphics, I will have to agree with your son. The atrocious quality of the CGI very much distracted me from the other parts of the movie. At times, it felt like a B-list movie, though one with a big budget. This is why I said that even with all its historical warts I somewhat preferred the '76 movie: I wasn't constantly distracted by obviously fake visuals.


I saw it. The visual choices and how CGI decisions were made is a mystery to me. It looked like none of the designers who made those planes had seen how a plane moves through the air, and no one in charge of the brief understood how groups of planes were instructed to move together. Every effect of flak and tracer and hit was expanded to extremes. The ships were sightly better I thought, and didn't move too unrealistically, but as all have commented, were bunched too tightly and included uselessly unhistorical types (Yamatos).

They obviously wanted more video game than reality. Which sucks.

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/24/2020 12:53:25 PM   
Q-Ball


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I just saw this movie on the plane. I am surprised nobody here is critical of the Marshall Islands Raid sequence. Did you enjoy the dogfighting in the deep canyons of Roi Namur? Because I didn't.....not only did Enterprise not bomb Roi, even if they did there aren't deep canyons anywhere within 1000 miles of the Marshall Islands.

Oh, they also showed a dud torp hit on a Japanese Heavy Cruiser, though I suppose we could stretch it and say that is Katori. Also, there is a near-miss Kamikaze attack on Enterprise thwarted by a tail gunner on deck, that whole sequence is BS, though I suppose that's Hollywood.

Look, some of it's OK, and it's way better than that other movie that I won't name, but they lost me at the Marshall raid

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/24/2020 1:42:17 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

Also, there is a near-miss Kamikaze attack on Enterprise thwarted by a tail gunner on deck, that whole sequence is BS, though I suppose that's Hollywood.


As a pure Hollywood BS sort of thing, the sequence is unbelievable EXCEPT that it actually happened pretty much as shown.

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/24/2020 1:43:32 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

Also, there is a near-miss Kamikaze attack on Enterprise thwarted by a tail gunner on deck, that whole sequence is BS, though I suppose that's Hollywood.


As a pure Hollywood BS sort of thing, the sequence is unbelievable EXCEPT that it actually happened pretty much as shown.



Really? Didn't know that.....so that one gets a pass!

The "Canyons of Roi" sequence still really bugs me though

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RE: OT--Midway Movie - 2/24/2020 2:41:20 PM   
Scott_USN

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

Also, there is a near-miss Kamikaze attack on Enterprise thwarted by a tail gunner on deck, that whole sequence is BS, though I suppose that's Hollywood.


As a pure Hollywood BS sort of thing, the sequence is unbelievable EXCEPT that it actually happened pretty much as shown.



Really? Didn't know that.....so that one gets a pass!

The "Canyons of Roi" sequence still really bugs me though



Looked like Hawaii or something but the tail gunner may have just been pissed off at the ship gunners lack of experience.

As for graphics I thought they were OK since almost all of it had to be created by computer. Some parts were worse than others though.

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