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Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/13/2020 3:17:31 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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Since the new patch, I have noticed that my newly arrived HQs fill up with SU limit 3 the turn they are put on the map. I would prefer to have them arrive empty or locked and assign any SUs myself. Is there a way to set this?

Thanks.
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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/13/2020 4:32:40 PM   
king171717


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its like that in 1.11, u just got to set it to zero and wait a turn :(

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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/13/2020 7:05:49 PM   
morvael


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Or just play with locked support option.

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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/27/2020 1:52:17 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Or just play with locked support option.


I think you misunderstood him morvael. The problem is with new HQs arriving set to SU Level 3 which unnecessarily pulls SUs to them, the turn they arrive. This has been brought up before and is both nonsensical and unrealistic.

Why should a HQ arriving in Berlin or in the Urals, pull SUs from the front? The HQ is not going to see action for at least 3 weeks until it reaches the front and those SUs are probably needed elsewhere.

Playing with locked support is not a solution to bad features. It would be much nicer to change things that make no sense.

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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/27/2020 3:50:33 PM   
morvael


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One day I would like to rework this option, if health allows. But it's a big rework, and I hope WitE2 will be out before I'll have to do it :)

Automatic assignment was always so bad, I never used it.

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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/27/2020 4:05:58 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

One day I would like to rework this option, if health allows. But it's a big rework, and I hope WitE2 will be out before I'll have to do it :)



I really hope your health gets better. With that being said: Please do not rework this or any other thing that would require a big change. I appreciate everything that you have done for WitE and love many of the new features that you have added, but major reworks need to stop. The game needs to reach a stage where it is stable and not littered by bugs. You can only change so much and we are already seeing how well intended changes are causing plenty of other problems, that take a lot of time and effort to fix.

So please from now on lets fix the bugs and let the game be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Automatic assignment was always so bad, I never used it.


Neither do I.


< Message edited by xhoel -- 2/27/2020 4:06:53 PM >


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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/27/2020 4:54:51 PM   
morvael


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Well, 1.11.03 was "active" version for a very long time (according to games scale of time), and now 1.12 is in beta phase, where new features were introduced and new bugs as well, which must be now hunted down. Complex PC games will never be stable as chess. But even boardgames and tabletop games receive new versions and patches which alter balance constantly. Such is the world we live in. It's nearly impossible to create perfectly balanced games, it's easier to shake meta from time to time. Until new auto-win strategies will be developed for a while game feels fresh and the playing field is leveled for everyone.

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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/27/2020 5:39:08 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Well, 1.11.03 was "active" version for a very long time (according to games scale of time), and now 1.12 is in beta phase, where new features were introduced and new bugs as well, which must be now hunted down.



1.11.03 had some nasty bugs, which were reported and were addressed very late but it was in its entirety a stable game version. It needed minor changes in fixing the balance a bit and in fixing the bugs. If we had gotten that in 1.11.04 I don't think anyone would be complaining.

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

It's nearly impossible to create perfectly balanced games, it's easier to shake meta from time to time.



There will never be a perfect balance as long as the two players playing the game are not exact copies of each other either. What is needed is balance, it doesn't have to be perfect. Balance means that given the game, two players of equal skills have equal chance to win the game. You give us that (1.12.03 has great promise to it so far) and we are happy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Until new auto-win strategies will be developed for a while game feels fresh and the playing field is leveled for everyone.



Each game is different though because of all the variables in it. So the existence of an auto win strategy can be mitigated by small changes, not by major ones, which bring with them a torrent of bugs.

We can dedicate a whole thread to this topic if you want to. I know that I am not the only person that thinks, that WitE should now aim to become stable and remove all possible bugs. Major changes not only add bugs but also have unforeseen effects to the game. If you want an example look no further than the new supply change, which was well intended in restricting German supply (and I salute you for that), but which has lead to a game version, where trucks are no longer important, removing something that was a very fun feature of the game and decreasing realism.

Me personally, I love this game. I think this is the game I've played the most in my entire life and I don't think I will ever get tired of it. However, playing a game where you are constantly switching from a buggy version to another buggy version is not a lot of fun. This is why I am saying that the game needs stability.



< Message edited by xhoel -- 2/27/2020 5:42:14 PM >


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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/27/2020 6:01:29 PM   
morvael


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Well, usually the pieces I rewrite work well, but need tuning, and tuning requires a lot fo PvP games, so it's impossible to do it in private. Bugs usually appear at connections of new and old code, hidden before from sight by how the old code operated, uncovered with new code. And I can't rewrite everything, but step by step.

As for vehicles problem - I have clearly indicated to Denniss that according to my AIvAI tests, and in light of the new supply model, Axis player has too many vehicles in GC'41, and they should be reduced by at least 100k, possibly more. As I'm not doing any data and scenario changes, I couldn't alter it. So now it's a case of scenarios requring some tuning, not a problem of the new code. And as you said, it brings many improvements.

And what about features like HQ support, many people don't use it as it's working so bad, those which use it report many issues it has. Automatically it's something I would like to rework, even if that means a few patches will be needed to iron some bugs (less so than in case of supply, as more refined problems with supply or retreats tend to appear after many turns and only in specific cases, whereas SU reassignment is a single static segment of logistics phase, and can be easily tested, also in AIvAI games).

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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/27/2020 6:20:09 PM   
eskuche

 

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As a newer player, my two cents is that anything making life simpler to avoid having to do gamey things like Kabuki dancing supply loaded (or overloaded) airbases makes the game more enjoyable by far. So thank you for the work regardless of the bugs which we know will get ironed out :)

Some UI things I am getting over by setting up scripts, e.g. setting airgroup range to 1 or infinite through one keystroke.

Sorry for offtopic.

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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/27/2020 9:23:23 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Well, usually the pieces I rewrite work well, but need tuning, and tuning requires a lot fo PvP games, so it's impossible to do it in private. Bugs usually appear at connections of new and old code, hidden before from sight by how the old code operated, uncovered with new code. And I can't rewrite everything, but step by step.




This isn't about how good you are at your job. I think you do a great job and are really talented. And I and many others appreciate that you picked up the tab after the devs stopped updating the game. The thing is, you need to accept the limitations. For now, you are a 1 man team (or 2 with Denniss, even though you two do different tasks) and you don't have any testers that can help you iron out bugs. So you lack testers, time and resources (1 person doing a job that should be done by multiple). In such conditions, it is wise to not try to rewrite everything, just fine tune the important parts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

As for vehicles problem - I have clearly indicated to Denniss that according to my AIvAI tests, and in light of the new supply model, Axis player has too many vehicles in GC'41, and they should be reduced by at least 100k, possibly more. As I'm not doing any data and scenario changes, I couldn't alter it. So now it's a case of scenarios requring some tuning, not a problem of the new code. And as you said, it brings many improvements.



A fine solution. I hope he does the same for the Soviets though, otherwise we will be seeing super mechanized Soviet armies in 1943 and beyong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

And what about features like HQ support, many people don't use it as it's working so bad, those which use it report many issues it has. Automatically it's something I would like to rework, even if that means a few patches will be needed to iron some bugs (less so than in case of supply, as more refined problems with supply or retreats tend to appear after many turns and only in specific cases, whereas SU reassignment is a single static segment of logistics phase, and can be easily tested, also in AIvAI games).


This is exactly what is wrong here morvael. I have the feeling that you are losing focus on the big picture and starting to tinker with things that don't matter whatsoever. AI HQ Support is maybe used by 10 players from the whole playerbase. It is a broken feature but it doesn't need any fixes because it is so damn unimportant that no one cares. And there is a better alternative to it: either play with locked HQs or with HQs set to 0. Problem fixed.

So me, like all the other players who do not use this feature would rather not sit through 4-5 patches riddled with bugs because you decided to fix this. I would much rather see you tackle important stuff such as the fact that the Germans have perfect fuel supply in 1945 than such silly things. At least with changes that would realistically reflect the supply situation in the later war, the bugs would be acceptable, because implementing such a change is a net gain, and adds realism to the game, while changes such as the one you mentioned are trivial and therefore not worth the effort, time or pain in the a** that they will produce.


Anyway, I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I really believe that there is no need to overhaul everything. Most of the stuff in WitE works just fine, all that is needed is small changes over a period of time so that you ensure that the game is fun and properly balanced.

Best regards,
Xhoel

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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/28/2020 6:40:04 AM   
morvael


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Yes, main problems are: there's just two of us (and Denniss is also working on WitW, and perhaps WitE2 as well), I'm not into this full time (it used to be full free time, but since my health declined I'm relucant to embark on heavier work), and we have no testers. I don't think you should worry about bigger reworks, last one (supply system) was done in August 2018, that's 1.5 years ago now. I feel I'm past my prime now, when it comes to coding for fun (I'd say my best years were 2005-2017). Other hobbies, not related to computers, push to the fore after 20 years of neglect.

As for fuel supply - IMHO new supply system was all about it, to bump up fuel use (and I think I measured that at least fuel stores are going down now, rather than up, from turn to turn). As you perhaps know, I'm not keen on making the shortages really severe, because without prioritization (apart from HQBU) there's no way to funnel very limited supplies into units of your choice. Therefore I opt for minor shortages across the board, that should give some incentive to slow down tempo, but they can't be really crippling. And given limitations of current model there will always be some things that are impossible, but are already solved in the new game (WitW/Wite2), so no need for me to work on something similar, given my current limitations.

I believe all this controversy could be avoided if we had WitE2 in our hands since 2017-8. At least for this delay I can't blame myself :)

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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/28/2020 9:34:44 AM   
Denniss

 

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As soon as 1.12 reaches stable we will work on data/scenarios. Hunting Bugs and Balancing has priority now.
Support level of arriving HQ may be something I could fix in Data if that's not overruled by arrival. Must also include the ability of the AI to change this value (if the AI uses it at all and not ignoring it).

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RE: Newly arrived HQs set support limit? - 2/28/2020 5:44:35 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Yes, main problems are: there's just two of us (and Denniss is also working on WitW, and perhaps WitE2 as well), I'm not into this full time (it used to be full free time, but since my health declined I'm relucant to embark on heavier work), and we have no testers. I don't think you should worry about bigger reworks, last one (supply system) was done in August 2018, that's 1.5 years ago now. I feel I'm past my prime now, when it comes to coding for fun (I'd say my best years were 2005-2017). Other hobbies, not related to computers, push to the fore after 20 years of neglect.



I hope your health gets better morvael. Thanks to both you and Denniss for the work you gents have put in WitE. I am glad to hear that no major reworks are being planned currently. Stabilizing 1.12.03 is the way to go :D

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

As for fuel supply - IMHO new supply system was all about it, to bump up fuel use (and I think I measured that at least fuel stores are going down now, rather than up, from turn to turn). As you perhaps know, I'm not keen on making the shortages really severe, because without prioritization (apart from HQBU) there's no way to funnel very limited supplies into units of your choice. Therefore I opt for minor shortages across the board, that should give some incentive to slow down tempo, but they can't be really crippling. And given limitations of current model there will always be some things that are impossible, but are already solved in the new game (WitW/Wite2), so no need for me to work on something similar, given my current limitations.



That's what I was thinking too. Without the supply priority as it exist in WitW and WitE2 it will be hard to model properly, but still glad to hear that the new patch has the effect of lowering fuel stores. Good choice then, minor shortages are better than nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
I believe all this controversy could be avoided if we had WitE2 in our hands since 2017-8. At least for this delay I can't blame myself :)


Better to get a good product at a later time than a bad product earlier ;)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

As soon as 1.12 reaches stable we will work on data/scenarios. Hunting Bugs and Balancing has priority now.
Support level of arriving HQ may be something I could fix in Data if that's not overruled by arrival. Must also include the ability of the AI to change this value (if the AI uses it at all and not ignoring it).


This is great news. Good to hear that you are both committed to stabilizing and balancing the new patch. Looking forward to it.

If that can be fixed, it would be great. If not than don't worry to much about it.

Thanks gents, both of you!

Best regards,
Xhoel


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