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AI cheating - 2/11/2020 6:13:58 AM   
suvarov

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
I have gotten about 6 weeks into a game as the Russians, and the Germans are cheating severely.

When I played the Germans, I had to watch supply, rest, and change posture.


I have killed 16 German divisions, mostly Panzer or Motorized (whereas I only lost 1 all the way to October when I played the Germans). And yet, the Germans smash forward.

I am almost all in defensive posture now, behind rivers, in swamps, woods, or cities, and it doesn't matter a bit. The Wehrmacht can easily sweep aside 4 divisions dug in to 175%. Like nothing.

Oh, and Finland surrendered. I would have thought that might help. But nothing seems to.

And I see every single German unit is still at least +70% on offense. So the AI doesn't have to contend with fatigue and can just permablitz without fuel or rest? What are they, terminators?

I would have thought that taking out 16 of the best German divisions would slow them down. Meh. Doesn't seem to.

And Germany has lost all but 300 tanks to combat losses. I would expect others broken down, but the AI probably doesn't have to deal with breakdowns either.

And here was I thinking that having only 300 tanks in all of Russia by August would make advancing tough. Nah. Not not for the AI.


And the mounds of conscripts that I found so annoying when I played the Germans are now apparently useless. 4 conscript divs dug in in a swamp behind a river get attacked by 12k German inf, and 25K conscripts die, while causing only 800 casualties. Seriously WTF? Does the AI not have to worry about terrain either?

Attacking over a river into a prepared position at 1:3 doesn't sound like a winning proposition to me, unless it is the 1991 Gulf War.


What am I missing here? Or is the AI engine really just a cheating engine?
Post #: 1
RE: AI cheating - 2/11/2020 8:04:57 AM   
lancer

 

Posts: 2958
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: online
Hi suvarov,

You are correct that the AI cheats. It does so in a different manner for both sides.

The reason isn't lazy coding but simply that the processor in a typical PC, or even a souped up one, can't make the required decisions necessary to handle what a human does (particularly the logistics) in a reasonable space of time.

Without the cheating the AI would be a walk over even on the highest difficulty level. The German AI is, as it currently stands, not that overwhelming a challenge once you put some thought into it.

The more complex a strategy game the less feasible a non-cheating AI becomes. Kind of a universal fact of life until there's a lot more horsepower available in PC's.

Cheers,
Cameron

< Message edited by lancer -- 2/11/2020 9:26:49 AM >

(in reply to suvarov)
Post #: 2
RE: AI cheating - 2/11/2020 9:36:54 AM   
JoeyBlau

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 11/20/2016
Status: offline
And they don't have to worry about being in c3. Divisions are fighting at full strength all up and down the front!

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 3
RE: AI cheating - 2/11/2020 12:21:25 PM   
suvarov

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
Since this is a game, I like to know the rules.

The AI is not subject to supply, apparently. It it subject to:

-command?
-fatigue?
-terrain?
-weather?
-front boundaries?

Imagine coaching a football team, and discovering that the other team's offensive line will all be driving fork lifts. Well, even the best d-linemen aren't going to stop fork lifts. They can be beaten, but by digging holes in the field and letting the forklifts fall in.

It might work, but it bears no resemblance to football.

I submit that building an AI that simply isn't subject to the limitations above is not only frustrating but bears no resemblance to the actual campaign.

Whether it is a challenge to beat the AI is a different question. It is Aug 21 and I have destroyed 19 German divisions. Maybe if by October I have killed 60 they will slow down. But the way to beat them isn't to be on defense in good terrain and wait for supply, fatigue, and weather to do their work.

Instead, stay on offense posture, goad the AI into unwise advance, isolate, and repeat. This is frustrating because I spent all the time an effort to switch to defensive posture, etc, which is no good against an enemy that never fatigues, always in blitz, and without need of supply or command.


I am also not sure if such a gambit, being so bizarre, would even be called fun.




(in reply to JoeyBlau)
Post #: 4
RE: AI cheating - 8/9/2020 3:28:03 PM   
joconnor

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 12/18/2017
Status: offline
Before I played the Russians in Barbarossa, I successfully played both the Germans and Russians in Case Blue. I found the Case Blue AI on both sides to be fair, although its greatest shortcoming was not recognizing the threat of envelopment by the other side. As the Russians, using the railroad was my greatest asset and saved my front from collapsing several times. The German AI was tough and stretched me to the limit as the Russians. Russian tenacity and ingenuity in placing reinforcements at German weak points eventually allowed the Russians to persevere.

Imagine my disappointment when I saw the German AI in Barbarossa using its Blitzkrieg bonus well into October. In low odds the German would win while with high odds the Russians were stymied in their attacks. Even though I was successful in reducing/eliminating many German panzer and motorized divisions, the Germans blitzed with their Infantry!!!. All of this is contrary to history and made game play most bizarre to say the least.

How about a Barbarossa that uses the Case Blue AI for a fairer game?

(in reply to suvarov)
Post #: 5
RE: AI cheating - 8/26/2020 1:43:32 PM   
GloriousRuse

 

Posts: 884
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: offline
I think the standing issue with the German vs Russian AI "cheats" are their visible effect and how that changes gameflow. The Russians fight a little harder, move a little faster, and activate a little more. This doesn't fundamentally change the nature of the Russians; they still have the balance of land given up versus forces preserved versus the running down the clock. The AI just does it a little more efficiently.

The German experience is wildly different. It is a game about an overwhelming advantage growing narrower and narrower in every aspect as you try to close with the key objectives before it disappears completely. But push too hard and you'll break the machine before you ever get where you're going. Unless you're the AI. Because then the machine never breaks and the advantage never diminishes, though the Russians get stronger. It isn't a case of executing the game with greater effectiveness and efficiency, its a case where they're playing a different game.

(in reply to joconnor)
Post #: 6
RE: AI cheating - 5/5/2021 7:52:16 PM   
PaulAllen1982

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 6/6/2020
Status: offline
Do people think this is a genuine issue when it comes to enjoying the game?

Most AI cheats but it's always a bit frustrating if they are clearly not subject to the same rules you are (e.g the above reports of German AI blitzkrieging indefinitely)

Note I haven't encountered any issues of this type yet but that's because I'm barely 2 turns into my first game!

Just wondering how much of an issue this is before I get further into the game.

(in reply to GloriousRuse)
Post #: 7
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