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Thoughts - 2/10/2020 10:16:27 PM   
StevieLee

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 2/10/2020
Status: offline
Pros:

Want to start by saying I've only played about ten hours, but I really think this has the potential to be one of the best tactical sims!

* 3D terrain and LOS
* Good, well rounded basic combat representation
* Easy to modify units/weapons/scenarios
* Very robust architecture (mobility, weather, obstacles, etc.)

Major Issues:

Spotting/targeting: When a platform that is concealed and in cover fires a single shot it is magically known by every enemy, and worse, the enemy are able to instantly fire on it. The instant knowledge part assumes the enemy unit initially fired on instantly spots the firing unit, gets a precise grid coordinate, and sends it to all enemy forces in the AO. Not realistic at all; if the friendly unit is well concealed, and depending on environment, quality of acquisition sensor, and how many other shots are being fired around, this may take some time to actually spot them, if at all. Once spotted, pre-90s, you would need a map and radio to send this report out, and that spot report would be one of many (potentially hundreds). Post 90s, you could capture the grid directly for some sensors and send immediately to mission command system (FBCB2 etc.). The instant fire part, however is unforgivable and breaks the game. Imagine you are in your car and I send you a 10 digit grid of someone hiding in the woods shooting at you from 1000 meters out. If you look that way, can you actually see them? Now what about when you are riding along in your vehicle with much worse visibility, and already occupied scanning your sector for threats? This is the problem; the spot report could be used to cue a platform to scan a specific region, but it would be competing with other priorities and you still may not see the shooter, especially if he doesn't want to be seen. The worst in game effect is for platforms intended for a standoff role (sniper, M901AT, TOW team for example). If they are dug in and concealed at max range, you shouldn't be able to see them easily at all, that's why they exist. In game, they get off one shot and two seconds later, boom!

Target Selection: Currently when a group of targets comes into view, every available friendly platform with LOS seems to fire at the lead vehicle until it is dead. In real life, there is a concept of sectors of fire, and defined sectors of fire assigned to each weapon system, as well as priority of targets. In many cases (think tank platoon) team members are masters of very complex TTPs to ensure they can service many independent targets very quickly with no wasted time or shots.

Weapon effects: Currently, I've seen tanks and APCs take dozens of missile/ATGM/large caliber HEAT with no effect on capability. Does the sim require armor penetration overmatch to render them non-mission capable? Any detonation could cause damage to surface systems (sensors, stabilization, comms, mobility) without penetrating armor. If they are hatch open (which they would be during this era for certain) it would produce significant casualties as well. If they were buttoned up their performance would be severely degraded from the lack of SA and inability to direct secondary weapons quickly, which is not reflected.

Minor Issues:

Military missions often don't involve occupying objectives (delaying action, preventing one unit from reinforcing another, fixing, blocking, conducting a raid and returning safely to friendly lines, ambush, zone/area reconnaissance). Be fun to add more flexible mission objectives (e.g. ambush convoy, prevent x % of enemy force from crossing phase line Golf by T+2 hours, find and fix enemy Bde with your Bn until your parent Bde can attack their flank in one hour).

Also adding cargo trucks and helos to transport leg infantry to the line of departure would be nice; those poor boys are having to walk five klicks for no reason as it is.

Artillery fire mission interface is awkward; being able to click on targeted area and adjust off that would be nice instead of trying to find the firing unit every time. Even better, have a toggled list box of all on map artillery and just click on entries to assign fire missions directly to map.

Post #: 1
RE: Thoughts - 2/11/2020 7:36:17 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: StevieLee

Spotting/targeting: When a platform that is concealed and in cover fires a single shot it is magically known by every enemy, and worse, the enemy are able to instantly fire on it. The instant knowledge part assumes the enemy unit initially fired on instantly spots the firing unit, gets a precise grid coordinate, and sends it to all enemy forces in the AO. Not realistic at all; if the friendly unit is well concealed, and depending on environment, quality of acquisition sensor, and how many other shots are being fired around, this may take some time to actually spot them, if at all. Once spotted, pre-90s, you would need a map and radio to send this report out, and that spot report would be one of many (potentially hundreds). Post 90s, you could capture the grid directly for some sensors and send immediately to mission command system (FBCB2 etc.). The instant fire part, however is unforgivable and breaks the game. Imagine you are in your car and I send you a 10 digit grid of someone hiding in the woods shooting at you from 1000 meters out. If you look that way, can you actually see them? Now what about when you are riding along in your vehicle with much worse visibility, and already occupied scanning your sector for threats? This is the problem; the spot report could be used to cue a platform to scan a specific region, but it would be competing with other priorities and you still may not see the shooter, especially if he doesn't want to be seen. The worst in game effect is for platforms intended for a standoff role (sniper, M901AT, TOW team for example). If they are dug in and concealed at max range, you shouldn't be able to see them easily at all, that's why they exist. In game, they get off one shot and two seconds later, boom!


This is actually not the case in the game. Units are not automatically detected when firing. In fact, in the past many units have been extremely hard to detect even after they've been firing at the enemy for minutes, especially small teams and dug-in vehicles with a small profile. We've made adjustments to the engine and data to make this work better. There are several factors that affect this, and for example if you have many 'eyes' on the target when it fires then the chance is much higher than if there was a single unit trying to spot it.

quote:



Weapon effects: Currently, I've seen tanks and APCs take dozens of missile/ATGM/large caliber HEAT with no effect on capability. Does the sim require armor penetration overmatch to render them non-mission capable? Any detonation could cause damage to surface systems (sensors, stabilization, comms, mobility) without penetrating armor. If they are hatch open (which they would be during this era for certain) it would produce significant casualties as well. If they were buttoned up their performance would be severely degraded from the lack of SA and inability to direct secondary weapons quickly, which is not reflected.


Armor penetration is required, however there's a chance for a 'weak point' hit that lowers armor protection for that hit considerably.


< Message edited by Veitikka -- 2/11/2020 7:38:03 PM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to StevieLee)
Post #: 2
RE: Thoughts - 2/11/2020 9:07:47 PM   
StevieLee

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 2/10/2020
Status: offline
quote:

This is actually not the case in the game. Units are not automatically detected when firing. In fact, in the past many units have been extremely hard to detect even after they've been firing at the enemy for minutes, especially small teams and dug-in vehicles with a small profile. We've made adjustments to the engine and data to make this work better. There are several factors that affect this, and for example if you have many 'eyes' on the target when it fires then the chance is much higher than if there was a single unit trying to spot it.


As I've played a bit more, I now see this. I wish we could tweak this a bit; small units and well dug in units probably should take minutes to detect-- frustrating, but more realistic. Biggest issue for me though is the stand-off units; units at 3-5 clicks in good cover/concealment (e.g. inside woods edge) should take minutes to detect, not seconds-- this is the key to their value.

I have noticed the "weak point" hit mechanic, but even with this the survivability of armor seems to be much more than experience from many conflicts would indicate.

(in reply to Veitikka)
Post #: 3
RE: Thoughts - 2/18/2020 11:49:09 AM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 774
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline
Hi Stevie, hey my name is Steven as well, awesome name isn't it, hey did you know Steven means crown is some languages...

Anyhow, I think the firing signatures in AB are good, as Veitikka said a lot of stuff has been tweaked for the better, before infantry and even vehicles where able to fire for minutes and where nearly impossible to spot and it was really frustrating some players, I believe any changes making it harder to spot units when firing will make it to hard and the game will head into back into frustrating territory..

Regarding ATGM firing vehicles, I have had a lot of success with them, I just make sure I have multiple firing positions that cover the enemy approach, I set up delayed commands so I can fire off a few missiles, pop smoke and move fast out of sight with no command delay, works for me....

Cheers

< Message edited by Lowlaner2012 -- 2/18/2020 12:03:49 PM >

(in reply to StevieLee)
Post #: 4
RE: Thoughts - 2/27/2020 9:32:16 AM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowlaner2012

Hi Stevie, hey my name is Steven as well, awesome name isn't it, hey did you know Steven means crown is some languages...


Similar to 'corona'?


_____________________________

Know thyself!

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 5
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