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Level 4 forts and no retreat?

 
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Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/8/2020 4:26:23 PM   
cavalry

 

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Dear friends,

I am playing drum on the Danube scenario actually apart from one issue with the isolation of German units in Bulgaria??? Some of them reform or appear in Zara and become instantly isolated and cannot leave because they are HQ regiments otherwise the game is pretty good.

My opponent though has asked me the following question to which I do not also know the answer

Here’s a mystery perhaps you can help me solve. In the North I attacked a 4 level fort and won at 5-to-1 odds. However, your units did not retreat. I thought perhaps units in a 4-level fort don’t have to retreat, but I word-searched the new unofficial WITE manual and couldn’t find it. Do you know the answer to why your forces did not retreat after losing at combat?

< Message edited by cavalry -- 2/8/2020 4:27:25 PM >
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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/8/2020 5:06:17 PM   
cavalry

 

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On checking the game turn I only saw a combat at 2.23 to 1 and a reduced the fort from 4.06. What kind of attack would fulsome automatic retreat from a fort
.

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/8/2020 5:25:51 PM   
eskuche

 

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Is this version 1.12.03? If so the retreat rules have changed. See changelog #19:
Defending units will not retreat from battle that ended with odds 2.00 to 1 or better for the attacker if the fort in hex will be at level 4 or better. For heavy urban, mountain terrain or working port level 10+ add 2 to fort level, for light urban, rough terrain or working port level 5+ add 1 to fort level.

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/8/2020 5:26:10 PM   
morvael


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quote:

Defending units will not retreat from battle that ended with odds 2.00 to 1 or better for the attacker if the fort in hex will be at level 4 or better. For heavy urban or working port level 12+ add 2 to fort level, for light urban or working port level 6+ add 1 to fort level.

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/8/2020 5:26:48 PM   
morvael


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However higher CV ratio helps to remove forts faster.

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/8/2020 5:31:33 PM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

Is this version 1.12.03? If so the retreat rules have changed. See changelog #19:


And 1.12.01 #3 altered this a bit.

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/8/2020 7:42:57 PM   
carlhebert

 

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I am Cavalry Corps' Russian opponent in "Drama on the Danube" and I am the one struggling with a level 4 fortification. I suspected that the fact there was no retreat after successful combat (9 to 1) meant the rules had changed for level 4 forts, but I couldn't find it. Thank you all for the clarification. I will just have to hammer away until the level slips below the 4 threshold. I was beginning to think that the Hungarian units had reached a state of fanatic defense never before seen.

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/8/2020 9:09:32 PM   
xhoel


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Engineer units (Sappers for the Soviets) and artillery (especially heavy) help with reducing fortifications. They will make it easier for you to take the hex.

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/8/2020 10:36:36 PM   
thedoctorking


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That's what those big old 203mm howitzers and 280mm mortars are for. And for the Axis, the even bigger German siege guns.

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/9/2020 9:42:49 AM   
cavalry

 

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Interesting replies and thank you. Please note these level 4 forts are in the mountains

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/9/2020 3:17:57 PM   
eskuche

 

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Check the discord. Someone is having an issue breaking a level 4 fort with just a fort zone. Is this intentional as well?

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/9/2020 3:27:49 PM   
cavalry

 

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I had the same thought - I was wondering then if any unit can hold a level 4 fort - even a fort zone itself?

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/9/2020 4:01:39 PM   
xhoel


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It should have been changed, at least there was talk about it being changed. Doesn't seem to be the case unfortunately...

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/9/2020 4:07:57 PM   
cavalry

 

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Morvael

9-1 did almost nothing something like 4.1 to 4.03?

So it could be that units in level 4 forts unreduced would fight to the last man ?

But once ( and if) they become level 3 then they retreat as usual? I assume.



< Message edited by cavalry -- 2/9/2020 4:14:18 PM >

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/9/2020 5:27:41 PM   
morvael


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Weaker forces will hold the fort for a shorter period of time. Can't see a big problem. 4.03 - another push and it will be gone. Especially that 0.02 at level 4 is many times stronger than 0.02 at level 3.

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/9/2020 10:17:48 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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Are the terrain bonuses exclusive or additive? Ie. Does Leningrad have +2 for either heav urban or port +12? Or does it have +4 total for both?

EDIT:

As far as I can tell Tallinn and Oranienbaum lost a bonus level for increasing port level requirement from 5 to 6. (they both have level 5 ports).

< Message edited by juv95hrn -- 2/9/2020 10:22:35 PM >

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/10/2020 11:59:49 AM   
carlhebert

 

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In my latest attack on the offending level 4 fortification in Drama on the Danube, I achieved odds of 29.48 to 1. I finally reduced the fortification level from 4.02 to 3.78. I expected a retreat, at last. However, the stalwart defenders did not retreat, leaving me to wonder what in the rules I am missing. Or is this a bug and once a fort is established at level 4 there is no retreat for the entire scenario? Can anyone shed light on this? Thank you.

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/10/2020 12:14:12 PM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlhebert

In my latest attack on the offending level 4 fortification in Drama on the Danube, I achieved odds of 29.48 to 1. I finally reduced the fortification level from 4.02 to 3.78. I expected a retreat, at last. However, the stalwart defenders did not retreat, leaving me to wonder what in the rules I am missing. Or is this a bug and once a fort is established at level 4 there is no retreat for the entire scenario? Can anyone shed light on this? Thank you.


I guess fort level wasn't reduced below 4.00 during combat itself, only post-combat bonus reduction from final CV ratio caused reduction below 4.00. It should fall on next turn!

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/10/2020 4:13:30 PM   
carlhebert

 

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Well, let's see what happens. If the fort falls, the defenders will have a special place in the Gulag for slowing my offensive to a virtual stop. Thanks Morvael for explaining things.

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/10/2020 4:59:47 PM   
morvael


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One really needs heavy artillery and engineers amassed to capture such forts quickly.

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RE: Level 4 forts and no retreat? - 2/10/2020 5:13:28 PM   
cavalry

 

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Apparently in this mod (according to my opponent) there is no pool of Heavy Guns for the Soviets?

Also for your interest, there is a number of axis units (some arrived, some moved and some respawnwed in Zara?) that can become totally isolated as Bulgaria etc changes to hostile terrain on about turn 7?? So if you move there with HQ and regts they are isolated in the new hostile hexes and cannot get back to the lines??

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