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Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/5/2020 10:49:48 AM   
juv95hrn

 

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Not being great at reading stats of air models, I wonder what models are the "best" FB to convert to a fighter bomber training role in the early war?

There isnt enough modern fighters to cover all areas of the map, so some old models (I-15 and I-16) must be used.

But which models excel as fighters and which as bombers? Would it fx. be ok to use the I-15s as Fighter Bombers and the I-16s as cannon fodder Fighters vs. the Messerschmitts. Or should all be converted to gain exp as bombers, while dying in droves?

Would love to get input which models are best for what role.

Thanks
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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/5/2020 2:20:45 PM   
Telemecus


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When you talk about fighter bomber airgroups are you talking about the ones that are fighter trained or bomber trained. Bomber trained ones can have their aircraft swapped to a true dive/tac bomber and would be best for that. Fighter trained FB groups put on to bomber missions would get an experience penalty. So bottom line is you will always prefer to use fighter trained FB groups as fighters first, would prefer bomber trained groups in true ground bombing aircraft otherwise, and you would only put fighter trained FB groups on bomber mission only if they have no fighter work to do and/or you want to keep them to be a fighter group later. Remember even if you try to use air miles flying them as a bomber to gain experience they will then have more fatigue and be less able as a fighter when you want them for that.

Apart from using the old I15s and I16s in that role I have seen Soviet players favour the hurricanes (Hurribombers) in the bomber role. Something to do with having rockets that are more capable in ground attack?

Feedback I have seen is that out of the modern fighters that the Soviet Union starts off with the Yak is the best dogfighter, Lagg next and MiG last when it comes to fighting other fighters. As the MiG has the longest range you may want to keep that to the rear airfields to defend industry or as a second line of airbases (out of enemy fighter range) to defend your first line - perhaps also long distance escort for bombers. When it comes to shooting down bombers you do not necessarily want the fighter which is the best dogfighting with enemy fighters but want the fighter with the biggest gun.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 2/5/2020 3:38:41 PM >


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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/5/2020 4:29:10 PM   
thedoctorking


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I put almost all Soviet fighter-bombers on bomber missions. The most effective ones in the early going appear to be the ones that can carry the RS-82 rocket (IL-16 mod 29 and LaGG-3). Given the difficulty the Germans will have in delivering fuel to their forward bases, they won't have enough fighters to where you will need anybody on fighter missions aside from the Mig-3's. As German fighter strength grows, you can put the more experienced fighter-bomber groups on the air-to-air mission.

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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/5/2020 5:18:42 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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Thanks!

From the manual:

"If they are performing a mission they are not trained for, they will be less effective (considered to be at half experience)."

I was under the impression that units would retrain over to their new role after a while if you changed them, so you could train your worst FB with bombing (even if trained as fighters). But this seems a bad idea if you permanently will run them at half exp.

I need to search the manual if they retrain to their new role.

But the general rule seems to be: Better planes and units = fighters, older planes and worse units Fighter-bomber role.


About range:
0 range = no mission
10 = intercept in own hex
20 = adjacent hexes
100 = 10 hexes range

or?


Also:
"It also costs one admin point to change a fighter bomber air group unit mission setting from fighter to bomber or vice versa."

I dont believe this is true any longer?

< Message edited by juv95hrn -- 2/5/2020 5:25:14 PM >

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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/5/2020 5:26:52 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

About range:
0 range = no mission
10 = intercept in own hex
20 = adjacent hexes
100 = 10 hexes range

or?



Nope.

0 or * range = max range
1 range = no fly
40 range = 1 hex
80 range = 2 hexes
etc etc

Whenever you set the range there is a number in the parenthesis that will tell you the amount of hexes the airgroup will fly to.

So for example 80 (2) means it will react to 2 hexes from the airbase.

quote:

"It also costs one admin point to change a fighter bomber air group unit mission setting from fighter to bomber or vice versa."

I dont believe this is true any longer?


Correct. It is free to change the mission setting.

IIRC they do not retrain for that role. And also the experience hit is not that big. I think it is more a hit of 1/3 of experience but don't quote me on that.

< Message edited by xhoel -- 2/5/2020 5:30:08 PM >


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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/5/2020 6:05:34 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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Im fairly certain the manual said: 10 range = 1 hex

But 210 range = 7 hexes, so Im fairly confident now 30 range is 1 hex.

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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/5/2020 6:17:03 PM   
xhoel


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Are you using the updated manual?

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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/5/2020 11:25:14 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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v2_5_5

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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/6/2020 1:14:27 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

When you talk about fighter bomber airgroups are you talking about the ones that are fighter trained or bomber trained. Bomber trained ones can have their aircraft swapped to a true dive/tac bomber and would be best for that. Fighter trained FB groups put on to bomber missions would get an experience penalty. So bottom line is you will always prefer to use fighter trained FB groups as fighters first, would prefer bomber trained groups in true ground bombing aircraft otherwise, and you would only put fighter trained FB groups on bomber mission only if they have no fighter work to do and/or you want to keep them to be a fighter group later. Remember even if you try to use air miles flying them as a bomber to gain experience they will then have more fatigue and be less able as a fighter when you want them for that.

Apart from using the old I15s and I16s in that role I have seen Soviet players favour the hurricanes (Hurribombers) in the bomber role. Something to do with having rockets that are more capable in ground attack?

Feedback I have seen is that out of the modern fighters that the Soviet Union starts off with the Yak is the best dogfighter, Lagg next and MiG last when it comes to fighting other fighters. As the MiG has the longest range you may want to keep that to the rear airfields to defend industry or as a second line of airbases (out of enemy fighter range) to defend your first line - perhaps also long distance escort for bombers. When it comes to shooting down bombers you do not necessarily want the fighter which is the best dogfighting with enemy fighters but want the fighter with the biggest gun.


In my current game Yaks are by far the best fighters and the rest also rans.

In terms of tactical bombers obviously IL2 but I keep flying SU2s and 153BS until I have enough ILs to fill out the squadrons. In previous games I have achieved SU2 Guards (like big deal). Hurricanes are ok.


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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/6/2020 3:46:26 AM   
thedoctorking


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U2VS make OK tactical bombers if you don't have anything better. You should build those NBAP squadrons and change them to day missions at once. In a game I'm playing in fall 42, I have like a dozen GNBAP squadrons, meaning that they've gotten more than 100 kills each. Pretty good.

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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/6/2020 8:59:13 AM   
juv95hrn

 

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It seems the consensus is to go with what the units is trained for, unless absolutely no use on that part of the front for that role.

Is there a way to change range limit for more than one air unit at the time at the same air base? If not this is a WITE2 given feature.

If I enable automatic swap for my older FBs, they should get into better bomber models eventually? But once in better models, they might swap down again to a better or similar model, so better stick with upgrade only?`


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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/6/2020 11:10:26 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

Im fairly certain the manual said: 10 range = 1 hex

But 210 range = 7 hexes, so Im fairly confident now 30 range is 1 hex.


It depends on the air missions and role.

If you are flying an air transfer mission that one hex might be ten miles because you are flying in a straight line. I think air transport is thirty miles per hex as even in combat conditions they still fly fairly straight. But to reflect the zig zagging of planes on most combat missions it is 40 miles per hex flight. There is a section in the manual describing the multipliers by missions although I have never tallied this with the actual results. But for most cases you need to fly 40 miles to cross a hex.

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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/6/2020 11:14:10 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn
If I enable automatic swap for my older FBs, they should get into better bomber models eventually? But once in better models, they might swap down again to a better or similar model, so better stick with upgrade only?`

Remember for many models there is no upgrade, so to get them into a better model you do need to use the autoswap option.

If you are OK with the micromanagement then you can do what I do and go through every airgroup each turn and check the pools. From the pools you will know which aircraft it can swap into. If they are all OK, leave them to autoswap. If there is one with enough aircraft in the pools that you do not want then keep it on manual (no swap) until the pools of that aircraft decrease or do a manual swap. If there is an upgrade path and that is the one you want then do switch it to upgrade only. And when airgroups are on the model you want switch them to manual so that they do not swap back again.

Remember also airgroups lose experience every time they swap. So yes do swap out of worse aircraft or when you run out of replacements. But try to keep the swapping to a minimum while doing that.


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 2/6/2020 11:16:37 AM >


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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/6/2020 11:17:54 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn
Also:
"It also costs one admin point to change a fighter bomber air group unit mission setting from fighter to bomber or vice versa."


This was patched out - assumed the updated manual says so?


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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/6/2020 12:07:59 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus


quote:

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn
Also:
"It also costs one admin point to change a fighter bomber air group unit mission setting from fighter to bomber or vice versa."


This was patched out - assumed the updated manual says so?




This is from the v2_5_5 pdf file, so should be amended for the next version.

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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/6/2020 5:45:44 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

Is there a way to change range limit for more than one air unit at the time at the same air base? If not this is a WITE2 given feature.



Yes, you can do this via the commanders report. Just go to airgroups, select air base and then you can set the range for all the airgroups in there.

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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/6/2020 7:35:15 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

Is there a way to change range limit for more than one air unit at the time at the same air base? If not this is a WITE2 given feature.



Yes, you can do this via the commanders report. Just go to airgroups, select air base and then you can set the range for all the airgroups in there.


Can also filter across airbase by criteria like morale etc. (in answer to question from someone else)

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 2/6/2020 7:51:26 PM >


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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/12/2020 4:22:00 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn
If I enable automatic swap for my older FBs, they should get into better bomber models eventually? But once in better models, they might swap down again to a better or similar model, so better stick with upgrade only?`

Remember for many models there is no upgrade, so to get them into a better model you do need to use the autoswap option.

If you are OK with the micromanagement then you can do what I do and go through every airgroup each turn and check the pools. From the pools you will know which aircraft it can swap into. If they are all OK, leave them to autoswap. If there is one with enough aircraft in the pools that you do not want then keep it on manual (no swap) until the pools of that aircraft decrease or do a manual swap. If there is an upgrade path and that is the one you want then do switch it to upgrade only. And when airgroups are on the model you want switch them to manual so that they do not swap back again.

Remember also airgroups lose experience every time they swap. So yes do swap out of worse aircraft or when you run out of replacements. But try to keep the swapping to a minimum while doing that.



I thought there was an upgrade path for every (Soviet) aircraft, though you may have to wait. For example the upgrade for 153 is the LA5, which unfortunately doesn't appear till mid 1942?




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RE: Early war USSR fighters and fighter bombers... - 2/12/2020 1:42:42 PM   
Telemecus


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no some Soviet aircraft do not have an upgrade path - most Axis aircraft do not

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