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IHQ Rolls Question - 2/5/2020 2:00:30 AM   
eskuche

 

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Am I correct in interpreting that German Corps/Russian Army (past July) IHQs have NO distance penalties for leader rolls during combat and that the only things affected in combat are SU and reserve commitment? However, they do benefit from being within 4 range of HHQs, above which there is the range command modifier penalty?

Does this apply equally to airbases?
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RE: IHQ Rolls Question - 2/5/2020 5:17:33 AM   
thedoctorking


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My understanding is that airbases don't care how far away the HQ is. I'm not exactly clear though on how their combat rolls work. Can someone enlighten me?

(in reply to eskuche)
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RE: IHQ Rolls Question - 2/5/2020 5:31:54 AM   
eskuche

 

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After digging and testing for a bit, it appears that air units always get their Fliegerkorps rolls (in supply display), but Luftflotte rolls change, so it can be worthwhile to shuffle around Kesselring/Richthofen (8 Air) in Luftflotte HQs to airbases that are immediately doing bombing runs. Empirically, I saw Luftflotte-attached airbase have 80% air roll. When attached to a Fliegerkorp, the roll went up depending on distance, up to 88%. This is consistent with a second roll (if first failed), rolling 8 < random (10 * 2 for one HQ up). My conclusion was thus.

For ground troops, I think I saw a similar phenomenon whereby units maintained their IHQ roll values regardless of distance and had slight increases based on distance two HQs up, namely army HQs.
Using analogous tactics, then, one would want to offload army HQs of SUs in the beginning of turn and use them very close to Corps HQ (or units themselves??) provided the IHQ is within 5 for SU, etc.

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RE: IHQ Rolls Question - 2/5/2020 5:57:56 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

Am I correct in interpreting that German Corps/Russian Army (past July) IHQs have NO distance penalties for leader rolls during combat and that the only things affected in combat are SU and reserve commitment? However, they do benefit from being within 4 range of HHQs, above which there is the range command modifier penalty?

Does this apply equally to airbases?


The roll range is 10 for any IHQ not just German Corp/Soviet Army. E.g. A unit attached to STAVKA, STAVKA rolls at range 10 as STAVKA is the units IHQ. Obviously there's no higher HQ so no further checks are posible if it fails.

Ignoring the Soviet Corps, range checks for them would at 10, 20 & 40. With the extra German layer of command there's rolls would be at 10, 20, 40 and 80.

See 11.3.2 new manual as there are certain penalties.

See 7.7.4 for HQ Support (squads) and Command range which is different to leadr rolls.

See 15.4 Support Units in Combat, basically must be within 5 hexes.

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RE: IHQ Rolls Question - 2/5/2020 6:11:54 AM   
eskuche

 

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Thanks Chris. I'm aware that's the roll range. Not quite what I was asking though. I am ignoring all supply issues and support group fatigue reduction effects in this thread, focusing strictly on combat rolls excluding SU/reserve commitment.
I was asking whether IHQ combat (infantry/mech and maybe morale?) rolls are penalized for IHQ being > 5 hexes away during combat. It does not appear to be so because unit supply detail roll %s seem to stay the same regardless of distance, but correct me if I'm wrong. (The alternative is that they autofail all rolls?)

Edit: I see how you misinterpreted my initial question. My question of penalty is not the command range divisor but whether units are penalized in a general fashion during combat rolls for being too far from their IHQs.

7.7.4 says:
Range also has a contiguous effect on leader rating checks, with the exception of morale and naval checks. The closer the higher HQ is to the combat unit involved, the higher chance that the higher HQ leader's rating checks will be successful.

It's unclear in the case whether higher HQ includes IHQ. It's also unclear if this paragraph only refers to the rolls for support group donation from HHQs. If it does *not* include IHQ, this implies that IHQ does not care about range for its combat rolls.


Edit to my air korps comments above: Depending on exact airbase distribution among Fliegerkorps, redoing some of the math implies having your Air 8's on Fliegerkorps with maxed out airbases is the optimal option, as they are guaranteed 80% on air rolls, with the remainder filled out ostensibly by Air 7's in Luftflottes, giving a final maximum of 80% + 20%(7/[10 * 2 HHQ penalty roll range]) = 87%. The reverse of multiple Fliegerkorps having Air 7 commanders with 8's stopping at Luftflotte level gives 70% + 30%(8/[10 * 2]) = 82% maximum. Alternatively you could have your two Air 8's in one Luftflotte/Fliegerkorps boosting those eight airbases to 88%, but that's probably not worth the cutoff to the rest of the Luftwaffe. Please correct me if this is wrong.


< Message edited by eskuche -- 2/5/2020 6:13:11 AM >

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RE: IHQ Rolls Question - 2/5/2020 6:34:37 AM   
eskuche

 

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Apparently I've had this question answered slightly before. Search my post history for "Army vs. Corps HQs" since I can't post links yet. See posts from TDK and telemechus.

Did some more testing. It appears that for air, at least, IHQ (Fliegerkorps) confers ratings roll % chance regardless of distance, and HHQ (Luftflotte) confers maximum stoppage rating based on HHQ distance to unit. It appears IHQ distance for air matters zilch (?!) especially since now airbases are supplied just-in-time. My previous conclusions should still stand, then. Put your Air 8's and 7's in Fliegerkorps and remaining 7's and 6's in Luftflottes, shuttling around to boost local airbase efficiency during the turn. Not sure if this was known already, but I've seen a lot of AARs grouping, ostensibly, Fliegerkorps along with the Luftflotte and airbases, whereas with my conclusions the Fliegerkorps can be providing AA cover elsewhere with blatant disregard for distance to unit.

The question remains then whether this is still applicable to ground units.

(in reply to eskuche)
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RE: IHQ Rolls Question - 2/5/2020 2:38:48 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche
However, they do benefit from being within 4 range of HHQs, above which there is the range command modifier penalty?


This is incorrect.
i) The distance between the IHQ and further HHQs makes absolutely no difference
ii) The distance between the HHQ and the combat units does by the following formula
2nd Level HQ (e.g. German army, Russian front) no penalty if 1 hex from combat unit, 1 penalty if 2-3 hexes away from unit, 2 penalty if 4-5 hexes from unit etc
3rd level HQ (e.g. German Army Group) no penalty if 1-2 hexes from combat unit, 1 penalty if 3-5 hexes away from unit, 3 penalty if 6-8 hexes from unit etc.
Each penalty can be linearly approximated to reducing leaders ratings by 1

Bottom line is ignore the distance between HQs - they do not matter at all.
If a higher HQ is to have no penalties on the ratings for a unit in combat, it will usually need to be quite close to it.

Note range penalties exist at less then 4 range and increase beyond 4 range - this number 4 in this case is meaningless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche
use them very close to Corps HQ


No

quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche
(or units themselves??)


Yes!!!

quote:

Does this apply equally to airbases?


Yes

See post 953 here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4611374 on centralisation to see how you can take advanatge of this. Up to 16 airbases can be assigned to any one Luftflotte

quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche
I was asking whether IHQ combat (infantry/mech and maybe morale?) rolls are penalized for IHQ being > 5 hexes away during combat.


There are no range penalties for the IHQ being further than 5 hexes

quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche
Fliegerkorps along with the Luftflotte and airbases, whereas with my conclusions the Fliegerkorps can be providing AA cover elsewhere with blatant disregard for distance to unit.


Correct. Remember though to commit any AA SUs assigned to the HQ they need to be within five hexes of units in battle they are commited to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche
The question remains then whether this is still applicable to ground units.


Yes it is. Remember here we are only talking about rolls for combat. Not necessarily supply, support squads, commitment of SUs. But in that narrow field air and ground units are exactly the same.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 2/5/2020 3:07:53 PM >


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(in reply to eskuche)
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RE: IHQ Rolls Question - 2/5/2020 3:12:21 PM   
eskuche

 

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Thanks as always Telemecus :)
I actually have the air page bookmarked for further study but missed that exact post somehow.

I could not for the life of me find your previous post stating ii) formula even though I remembered the 2-3 hexes part of it. I think it would help in future explanations if you stated for newer players that that formula is simply the application of the command range modifier formula (e.g., 2nd level HQ adds distance/2 penalty to roll range [rounded down it seems] -> penalty starts at 2 hexes away, ditto for 3rd level HQ 3 hexes away)

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