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Intercepting Naval moves - 2/1/2020 5:03:07 AM   
tyronec


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Alvaro can you clarify the following:

1. If there are 5 fleets with the chance of a Naval Intercept does only 1 make the attempt (so your chance of getting past 5 fleets is the same as your chance of getting past 1 fleet) ?

2. Do CVs have a higher intercept chance ?

3. If there are 5 bombers with the chance of a Naval Intercept does only 1 make the attempt (so your chance of getting past 5 bombers is the same as your chance of getting past 1 bomber) ?

4. If you have 1 fleet and 1 bomber with the chance of a Naval Intercept do they both have a chance of an intercept or just one of them ?

5. Would be good to know what the various intercept chances are.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/1/2020 3:30:58 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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I'll add this in the rules for interception. I didn't add it initially because I wasn't sure where about was fair. The interception was a late beta thing that was added. Interception is handled differently than recon levels. Instead of a naval unit already in the area it is entering the area where your ships are. So the search is based on where your interceptor is relative to the moving unit.

Base search box level-%
0-5% (1), 1-15%, 2-25%, 3-37%, 4-48%, 5-60%, 6-78%, 7-85%, 8-90%, 9-95% (2)

Note 1 - Can only happen if a naval unit is in raider mode at a recon level 1 hex.
Note 2 - Maximum base chance is 95%

1 air unit and 1 naval unit have a chance to intercept. It will find the best air unit in terms of firepower and

###AIR UNITS 10 hex range
Air Factors Distance Modifiers (based search chance level = 10)
each hex distance to target -1
Raider mode = -1
Enemy fleet being on or near your friendly controlled hexes reduces the effective distance based on how many friendly controlled hexes they are next to or on
+ Naval groups current ID level (0-3, usually zero if they just moved in the area)

Search Box level = to this number min 0, max 9. This value is applied to the serach box level chart. This yields a spot chance in percentage.

###AIR UNIT 10 hex range
Air Factor Spot Chance Modifiers
+1% per 3 strength of air
+1% per naval group in enemy fleet

if an air intercept fails it tries a naval intercept

###CARRIER FLEET 5 hex range
Can't intercept night missions
+1% per 3 strength of air
+1% per naval group in enemy fleet

###SURFACE FLEET 5 hex range
Naval Factor Spot Chance Modifiers
x50% if enemy is a night mission


So lets take a look at your scenario from the post.

Enemy ran out his division.... where he ended up you probably had no chance to intercept. This situation I am still working on if it is a reasonable play.

Enemy ran in a corps....
10 - 3 (distance) = 7
ZERO hexes are yours around Copenhagen
Raider mode 7 - 1 = 6 (we presume)
Enemy Fleet ID level 6 - 0 = 6
Base spot chance for level 6 on the search box is 78%
78% + 1% for 1 naval group = 79%
+10% for 30 aircraft = 88%

So very likely you intercept

Naval unit. Takes the strongest naval fleet one 1 hexes NE of the Kiel Canal... distance 7.
10 - 7 (distance) = 3
ZERO hexes are yours around Copenhagen
Raider mode 3 - 1 = 2 (we presume)
Enemy Fleet ID level 2 - 0 = 2
Base spot chance for level 2 on the search box is 25%
25% + 1% for 1 naval group = 26%


It is possible you missed both.

The best strategy is to have one larger fleet in the area you want to intercept being closest to the points you want to protect.

< Message edited by Alvaro Sousa -- 2/2/2020 3:14:46 PM >


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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/1/2020 7:31:21 PM   
tyronec


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Thanks for this, helps to explain things.

Just looking through it and doing a test there are a few issues:

1. If there are air and naval units in range then only the air unit searches. This why there were no interceptions around Copenhagen. The air units negated the naval ones.

2. The calculations for air search don't seem to be correct. Air intercept level is much lower.

3. Looking at the naval units (excluding CV which get two), they only get one intercept per stack. So for an important invasion, like Sealion, Axis could soak off a whole big naval stack with one small unit.

4. Multiple air or multiple naval units may in certain situations actually make your chances of getting a sinking worse than with just one unit. There are many permutations, but if it attacks with only the strongest unit that may not be the one that has the best search odds. But the main issue is if you have many units to defend against one invasion force then you get only one chance for a hit, which seems wrong.

Am thinking that 1 & 2 are bugs, if they are fixed maybe it works OK.
3 & 4 are more subtle, maybe those are design issues that you are not going to change.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/1/2020 7:46:16 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Lemme look again I did this while crap was happening in my house and I had not had my coffee yet.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/1/2020 10:57:37 PM   
Michael T


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Could you define some stuff.

Like what the hell is a search box?

I thought transport missions could not be raiders? Seems a bit strange.

Transport missions are very slow. There should be positive modifiers to catch them. Even more for invasions. Hell they are sitting stationary at a beach head for days most likely.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 4:44:09 AM   
ago1000


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+1 with Tyronec
Air attacks first - does nothing really (no real information on report either)
Then BB groups - hit or miss with damage (if it misses it will try twice)
CVs attack last and do the most damage

In vids below the British Air has Naval 1945 tech while the ships are at 1942, Germany has at start 1939 techs

Vid 1: Landed 8 out of 10 : https://youtu.be/Ih1hvwLNQGM

Vid 2: Landed 5 out of 10: https://youtu.be/cxlaAB8oePo

Vid 3: Landed 4 out of 10: https://youtu.be/H53Nk1rW3Nk

(Vid 3 could have been 3 out of 10).




< Message edited by ago1000 -- 2/2/2020 4:57:35 AM >


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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 6:10:05 AM   
PanzerMike


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Hmmm, this seems to confirm my own experiences with the air interception of invasions. Red arrows but nothing really happens. No report either. Air supremacy for invading is not necessary; air interception of an invading fleet does not really happen. This can't be right.

And good work on the videos!

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 2/2/2020 7:03:11 AM >

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 6:29:58 AM   
MorningDew

 

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Very interesting research and videos. And I am guessing it isn't right, yet ironically, it is almost comforting. Why? Because if it is a bug that air isn't working properly on naval intercepts AND it is a bug that that air then prevents a naval intercept, then the current mechanics (once working properly) have a much better chance of supporting air/naval impacting invasions and transports as one would expect. (And ironically, I'll be glad Alvaro was slow to make too many other changes to fix this first:))

My thought is that tyronec's #3 is also a bug - naval should intercept if they still have an operational point. So that has even further positive impact if a bug.

I can start to see a model where naval units are patrolling near the coast, covered by air to protect against an enemy hitting them while at sea, and being able to impact invasions. This would require an opponent to gain air superiority to eventually gain naval superiority to eventually be able to support an invasion (both the invasion and subsequent transport of more troops).

Equally important, getting this right impacts Pacific:)

Curious to hear the outcomes of Alvaro investigating.

And a big thank you to tyronec and ago1000 for the details and videos.

< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 2/2/2020 6:40:16 AM >


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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 7:32:08 AM   
PanzerMike


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Agree with you Andrew. The mechanics seem to be there, but are not working properly. This is fixable.

If air units properly massacre invasion fleets sailing out without a proper air umbrella provided, things will look very different.

Ow, and I noticed that you put air units not only in support mode, but also to attacking naval units. The latter should not be necessary, right?

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 2/2/2020 7:36:57 AM >

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 8:09:12 AM   
MagicMissile


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Yes very nice work. But if all is fixed and suddenly the transports are very vulnerable (as should be) I hope partial damage might be possible not the total hit or miss we seem to have now.

/MM

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 11:42:39 AM   
Meteor2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

Yes very nice work. But if all is fixed and suddenly the transports are very vulnerable (as should be) I hope partial damage might be possible not the total hit or miss we seem to have now.

/MM


+1

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 12:07:42 PM   
battlevonwar


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Great work... +2

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 2:48:17 PM   
ago1000


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@PanzerMike
Re: I noticed that you put air units not only in support mode, but also to attacking naval units. The latter should not be necessary, right?
You are correct, I only needed support mode.

Vid 4: Landed 0 out of 10 with the following arrangement of naval. Note: This is the same number of naval units in the first 3 vids above. Usually one land unit can make it through. It's just interesting to see the surface fleets and how they intercept.

https://youtu.be/HnqqvZtMdjg


Suggestion: A little more info when either an interception fails or is attempted would be nice. At least at the minimum, what unit tried to intercept. There are times when you walk away from the game while it's running a turn and you're not around the see the arrows that appears on the screen. Just a suggestion.



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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 3:32:15 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Thanks for this, helps to explain things.

Just looking through it and doing a test there are a few issues:

1. If there are air and naval units in range then only the air unit searches. This why there were no interceptions around Copenhagen. The air units negated the naval ones.

2. The calculations for air search don't seem to be correct. Air intercept level is much lower.

3. Looking at the naval units (excluding CV which get two), they only get one intercept per stack. So for an important invasion, like Sealion, Axis could soak off a whole big naval stack with one small unit.

4. Multiple air or multiple naval units may in certain situations actually make your chances of getting a sinking worse than with just one unit. There are many permutations, but if it attacks with only the strongest unit that may not be the one that has the best search odds. But the main issue is if you have many units to defend against one invasion force then you get only one chance for a hit, which seems wrong.

Am thinking that 1 & 2 are bugs, if they are fixed maybe it works OK.
3 & 4 are more subtle, maybe those are design issues that you are not going to change.



#1 I checked the code and fixed this. Now one of each will take place.

#2 No it's right. 10 - 3/range = 7 -1/raider = 6.... 6 on the Search Box chart is 78% +1/naval size = 79% +10%/30 air straight = 88% total.

#3 Some mechanisms there is no way around. But each friendly unit intercepts twice during their turn so the Axis would have to use a lot of soak offs. When it is not your turn you can't choose or not choose to intercept A,B, or C. Consider Battle of the Philippines. The Japanese rouse worked. They just failed to follow up. If I somehow make a fix for this, which frankly I can't, there will be some other gamey mechanism. So say you have 2 fleets and 2 bombers in range to intercept Germans. They are going to sacrifice 4 units to soak off your fleet? That's a large investment of at least 4 divisions just to do it.

#4 Well this is where your strategy come into play. I assume you played WIF or SPI's ETO or some other board game. What happens in naval battles in the Pacific? The best play always is to mass all your CVs and air in one zone. Then the enemy masses all his CVs and planes in one sea zone and you duke it out. Here you have to put some thought in how you plan interception fleets. Maybe not one big group but 2 sets of 3 ships. Not counting the planes. Lots of ways to do it. Remember that the Germans have to send not only a land unit but a ship as a soak off. And still the transported unit has a higher profile value.



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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 3:38:49 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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page 7 and 8 of the manual edit.

This was internal, now I am making it external and gave the calculations names.

Transport missions can't be night moves. I misspoke before.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 3:41:18 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

+1 with Tyronec
Air attacks first - does nothing really (no real information on report either)
Then BB groups - hit or miss with damage (if it misses it will try twice)
CVs attack last and do the most damage

In vids below the British Air has Naval 1945 tech while the ships are at 1942, Germany has at start 1939 techs

Vid 1: Landed 8 out of 10 : https://youtu.be/Ih1hvwLNQGM

Vid 2: Landed 5 out of 10: https://youtu.be/cxlaAB8oePo

Vid 3: Landed 4 out of 10: https://youtu.be/H53Nk1rW3Nk

(Vid 3 could have been 3 out of 10).





They all should have been sunk. So clearly something is off. Let me check it and run some testing.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 3:47:33 PM   
PanzerMike


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I really would like to see air units intercepting an invasion fleet for real. I don't think I have ever seen it happen. Lots of red arrows flashing, but that's it.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 7:04:50 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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I rewrote some of the code today. Found a couple bugs. Then I tested it.

Testing more will upload the beta later.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 7:13:14 PM   
PanzerMike


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Looking forward to this. If the invasion mechanics work right and prevent "silly" invasions from happening, the game will greatly benefit.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 7:36:52 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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I did modify my original post with the data so look above.


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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/2/2020 11:53:22 PM   
MorningDew

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PanzerMike

Looking forward to this. If the invasion mechanics work right and prevent "silly" invasions from happening, the game will greatly benefit.


+1

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/3/2020 12:07:00 AM   
ago1000


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At the moment, ships in port do not intercept. This is another suggestion, maybe a ship within interception range should be allowed to do so, even while in port, if they have enough OP.


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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/3/2020 12:28:15 AM   
MorningDew

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

At the moment, ships in port do not intercept. This is another suggestion, maybe a ship within interception range should be allowed to do so, even while in port, if they have enough OP.



I agree this could also be valuable in stopping unescorted invasions and transports. I'd suggest, if implemented, it should only occur if there is a significant strength advantage (not sure what significant means) to the interceptors.

Need to be able to keep naval units in port and a threat and I wouldn't want the ability for an opponent to be able to pull them out for their slaughter.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/3/2020 1:28:34 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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Interception from port creates a gamey situation where the fleet in port has a huge advantage.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/3/2020 6:51:13 AM   
PanzerMike


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Ok, fixes in place. Ago1000, do your magic and let us know.

Maybe it would be an idea to share that setup you have for testing. I use the 1944 stock scenario as the Allies to test invasions, but this is not ideal. I also use the 1943 scenario as the Allies sometimes.

From my quick tests I just did, I see not much difference in the behaviour of planes. Red arrows from German air units flash, but I see no effect on the invading units or a report of the red arrow move for that matter. Invading on top of a German unit is no longer possible, so that bug is fixed.

In the 1943 scenario it still is really easy to land in Normandy. My guys simply step ashore, not even getting their feet wet and brewing tea on the beach first, before taking a stroll in the beautiful French countryside of Normandy Not even a courtesy fly by of the Luftwaffe, tsk tsk tsk.

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 2/3/2020 6:55:36 AM >

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/3/2020 9:22:38 PM   
ago1000


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I will start off with the 1939 scenario. I will attempt to bring it to Operation Sea Lion once I finish my preliminary tests. Preliminary Tests: Test air units on their own to see if they intercept with the percentages Alvaro provided us in a prior post. This will take a while.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/3/2020 10:58:41 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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I tested it showing the intercept % #s various ways.

I also ordered the fleets where a CV fleet will intercept before a surface one will if there are 2 fleets in fleet mode.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/3/2020 11:18:05 PM   
ago1000


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Using 1.00.05h2, and updated the scenarios through beta:

Alvaro, I still can't get the planes to hit anything. I tried creating various scenarios to test the waters but the red arrows appear and disappear with no damage. There are no reports I can check to see what's happening. I even used the 1939 base scenario without any changes (vid3) and tried one amphibious landing. Once again. Untouched.

What I notice is the arrow seems to come from the furthest air unit. You see it in the first vid especially. Note: The first two vids the air units have Naval 1945 tech, so Naval Attack 6.
Here the vids: Hope this helps.

Vid 1: https://youtu.be/aKT_h77mD5E (just air)
Vid 2: https://youtu.be/GBhAE8-NXVY (air attacking German CV)
Vid 3: https://youtu.be/h1OLYttXsEw (1939 Base Scenario)

Maybe I'm doing something wrong? I'm using HOTSEAT and I also tested with Britain as AI a few times.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 2/3/2020 11:29:45 PM >


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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/3/2020 11:57:54 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Ill look and I VERY much appreciate the videos it helps.

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RE: Intercepting Naval moves - 2/4/2020 12:52:40 AM   
MorningDew

 

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In addition to the lack of air doing anything, any issue with the invading units getting 5+ hexes deep on the invasion turn? Is that WAD?

< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 2/4/2020 12:53:06 AM >


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