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OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 1:27:36 AM   
tolsdorff

 

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Not to detract from the deeds of this man, but aren't frigates and destroyers named after war heroes, amongst others?

Halsey, Spruance, Yorktown or Lexington, to name but a few, just seem bit more sensible for such a capital ship.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 1:33:43 AM   
RangerJoe


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Yes, frigates and destroyers among other ships. I don't know why they named it after a mess steward other than he is credited for shooting down a plane when the US was officially in peacetime.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 2:49:10 AM   
Ian R

 

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As an independent observer, it seems the move to naming USN carriers after people flowed from the Forrestal & the JFK, and the decision to shift the state and city names to the growing fleets of SSBNs and SSNs. The old carrier names (battles and historical ships, and a few long dead people) went to the Tico cruisers and large amphibious assault ships. At the same time the USN was trying, in spite of political interference, to stick with its naming conventions, hence the Spruance, OH Perry, and Kidd classes.

That left the new carriers to be given deceased peoples' names, including presidents', instead of the SSBNs which used to get those (there was a George Washington class SSBN named Robert E. Lee, as an outlier example). The Carl S Vinson fitted with the Forrestal precedent, and of the Fleet Admirals, King, Halsey and Spruance were already taken when Nimitz was launched.

Doris Miller doesn't fit any of that.

If I was in charge, I wouldn't use live people's names, but then I'm not in charge.

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Ian R

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 3:56:38 AM   
RangerJoe


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Doris Miller died during the war if I remember correctly. I don't know if he ever had any official Ma Deuce training.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 4:36:24 AM   
JeffroK


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Died with the sinking of the Liscombe Bay off Tarawa.

Only training was as a cook.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 7:26:41 AM   
Kursk1943


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The name "Doris Miller" for a CV sounds funny for German ears, because Doris is a typical girl's name in Germany...

No offense of the female part of mankind intended!



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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 12:05:09 PM   
Trugrit


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It is the second ship named after him:
https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/research/histories/ship-histories/danfs/m/miller-de-ff-1091-i.html

Sailors sometimes give nicknames to the ships they serve on.

I served on two amphibious ships.
The USS Charleston which we called “The Chuck” and
The USS Barnstable County which we called “The Barn”

The sailors may call her “The Dorie” but probably just the Miller again.


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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 1:05:00 PM   
Kursk1943


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If I remember correctly sailors nicknamed CV Intrepid "Evil I", because of some bad accidents on her and CVL Cowpens was nicknamed "Mighty Moo".

< Message edited by Kursk1943 -- 1/27/2020 2:21:26 PM >


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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 4:52:40 PM   
BBfanboy


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Didn't know about the Cowpens nickname!
Sounds like a play on the USS Missouri's "Mighty Mo".

I can't understand why no major warship has been named after the captain of USS Johnston (of the Battle of Samar fame), Ernest E. Evans.
IIRC he was sometimes referred to as Cherokee Evans because he had some native blood in his pedigree. As a Medal of Honor winner and a truly courageous leader, naming a major ship after him would honor him and give a nod to the native people who served in the USN.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 10:12:52 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Didn't know about the Cowpens nickname!
Sounds like a play on the USS Missouri's "Mighty Mo".

I can't understand why no major warship has been named after the captain of USS Johnston (of the Battle of Samar fame), Ernest E. Evans.
IIRC he was sometimes referred to as Cherokee Evans because he had some native blood in his pedigree. As a Medal of Honor winner and a truly courageous leader, naming a major ship after him would honor him and give a nod to the native people who served in the USN.


Half Cherokee from his mother, part Creek with some European on his father's side. I have a book about him, Halsey, Kurita and Ugaki. I enjoyed the book.

edited:

Sea of Thunder: Four Commanders and the Last Great Naval Campaign 1941-1945
by Evan Thomas

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37623.Sea_of_Thunder

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 1/27/2020 10:29:03 PM >


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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 10:38:52 PM   
BBfanboy


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That books sounds interesting. Will look for it.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 10:55:00 PM   
RangerJoe


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Evans was embarrassed when he was on the DD Alden in the Java Sea when they ran away. He attacked at Leyte Gulf before he had orders to do so.

The book also takes at least some of the blame away from Halsey for leaving that straight unguarded.

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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Post #: 12
RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 10:59:01 PM   
Canoerebel


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A few weeks ago, a writer sent me a note about his submission (50 words or less) as to the most heroic naval action in American history. His nomination was the Monitor. My immediate thought was USN destroyers in the Battle of Samah.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/27/2020 11:52:36 PM   
geofflambert


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I wouldn't put Monitor v Virginia in the top ten or twenty. Both ships were virtually invincible to anything short of ramming.

Miller supposedly was trained to feed ammo to the light AA guns so was somewhat familiar with their operation. Using him makes sense as a large percentage of the crews are usually brown and could use the inspiration.

I think Canoerebel was referring to the Battle off Samar (not Samah) and that definitely would count with me.

They could sure name a ship after Ernest E. Evans.

Half Cherokee and 1/4 Creek, to boot.
Go Chiefs!

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 1/28/2020 12:02:14 AM >


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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/28/2020 3:22:17 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Doris Miller died during the war if I remember correctly. I don't know if he ever had any official Ma Deuce training.


My comment was directed at some more recently commissioned carriers.

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Ian R

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/28/2020 3:29:25 AM   
Canoerebel


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From my experience, most Georgians (and most southerners) are part Cherokee, and nearly everybody has an ancestor that served in the 3rd Georgia Reserves (fated to serve as the guards at Camp Sumter, the POW stockade at Andersonville).

Yes, I meant the Battle of Samar. Thanks, Geoff, for catching that.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/28/2020 12:55:38 PM   
Andrea G


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If I am not mistaken Miller has been the first afro-american to be awarded the Navy Cross; guess that's the reason for christening CVN-81 with his name.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/28/2020 1:53:37 PM   
Mark VII


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I think Canoerebel was referring to the Battle off Samar (not Samah) and that definitely would count with me.

They could sure name a ship after Ernest E. Evans.

Half Cherokee and 1/4 Creek, to boot.
Go Chiefs!


They did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Evans_(DE-1023)


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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/28/2020 2:52:16 PM   
Chickenboy


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Ditto others' comments about the DDs and DEs off of Samar for valor. However, I was thinking of Robert Copeland, Captain of the Samuel B. Roberts (DE-413). His message to the crew before engaging is haunting, but should stiffen the spine of anyone to have ever served: "This is a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival could not be expected. We will do what damage we can." No greater valor.

Copeland had the USS Copeland (FFG-25) named after him in 1980.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/28/2020 7:37:40 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

As an independent observer, it seems the move to naming USN carriers after people flowed from the Forrestal & the JFK, and the decision to shift the state and city names to the growing fleets of SSBNs and SSNs. The old carrier names (battles and historical ships, and a few long dead people) went to the Tico cruisers and large amphibious assault ships. At the same time the USN was trying, in spite of political interference, to stick with its naming conventions, hence the Spruance, OH Perry, and Kidd classes.

That left the new carriers to be given deceased peoples' names, including presidents', instead of the SSBNs which used to get those (there was a George Washington class SSBN named Robert E. Lee, as an outlier example). The Carl S Vinson fitted with the Forrestal precedent, and of the Fleet Admirals, King, Halsey and Spruance were already taken when Nimitz was launched.

Doris Miller doesn't fit any of that.

If I was in charge, I wouldn't use live people's names, but then I'm not in charge.



Nothing wrong with the name Doris Miller. However, rumour has it that the next pair of CVNs will be named after those other two war heroes of Pearl Harbor fame - Danny Walker and Rafe McCawley

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/28/2020 10:26:31 PM   
Bearcat2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

As an independent observer, it seems the move to naming USN carriers after people flowed from the Forrestal & the JFK, and the decision to shift the state and city names to the growing fleets of SSBNs and SSNs. The old carrier names (battles and historical ships, and a few long dead people) went to the Tico cruisers and large amphibious assault ships. At the same time the USN was trying, in spite of political interference, to stick with its naming conventions, hence the Spruance, OH Perry, and Kidd classes.

That left the new carriers to be given deceased peoples' names, including presidents', instead of the SSBNs which used to get those (there was a George Washington class SSBN named Robert E. Lee, as an outlier example). The Carl S Vinson fitted with the Forrestal precedent, and of the Fleet Admirals, King, Halsey and Spruance were already taken when Nimitz was launched.

Doris Miller doesn't fit any of that.

If I was in charge, I wouldn't use live people's names, but then I'm not in charge.



Nothing wrong with the name Doris Miller. However, rumour has it that the next pair of CVNs will be named after those other two war heroes of Pearl Harbor fame - Danny Walker and Rafe McCawley



Walker and McCawley were in the Army, they named a tank after Walker [M-41] and the MBT-70 after McCawley, but the MBT-70 was cancelled.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/28/2020 10:59:14 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A few weeks ago, a writer sent me a note about his submission (50 words or less) as to the most heroic naval action in American history. His nomination was the Monitor. My immediate thought was USN destroyers in the Battle of Samah.

Good choices both. I nominate the USS San Fransisco going toe to toe, salvo to salvo, with a Japanese BB and giving as good as she got. Even with their senior command all dead that crew put out over 20 fires, stayed in the fight and brought their ship home.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/28/2020 11:10:22 PM   
tolsdorff

 

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There is a good document online about the San Francisco's sustainend battle damage, including pictures.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/29/2020 12:46:48 AM   
RangerJoe


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Thank you, that is interesting.


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― Julia Child


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Post #: 24
RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/29/2020 12:53:47 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

There is a good document online about the San Francisco's sustainend battle damage, including pictures.

Interesting to see the inaccuracies in the estimation of the Japanese forces involved and the avoidance of mention of the possibility of friendly fire incidents.
San Fran certainly deserves the kudos to her crew and continuation of her name, but it is difficult to single out a hero on her to name a ship after. The Admirals and Captain were killed early on so the continued fighting of the ship was handled by persons unnamed in the crew AFAIK.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/29/2020 1:32:44 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

There is a good document online about the San Francisco's sustainend battle damage, including pictures.


Thanks for posting this. I remember seeing these pictures years ago and thinking what I do now: high caliber naval gunfire must just make mincemeat out of frail human bodies. The spall in the Captain's bath area is appalling.

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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/29/2020 7:12:13 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

As an independent observer, it seems the move to naming USN carriers after people flowed from the Forrestal & the JFK, and the decision to shift the state and city names to the growing fleets of SSBNs and SSNs. The old carrier names (battles and historical ships, and a few long dead people) went to the Tico cruisers and large amphibious assault ships. At the same time the USN was trying, in spite of political interference, to stick with its naming conventions, hence the Spruance, OH Perry, and Kidd classes.

That left the new carriers to be given deceased peoples' names, including presidents', instead of the SSBNs which used to get those (there was a George Washington class SSBN named Robert E. Lee, as an outlier example). The Carl S Vinson fitted with the Forrestal precedent, and of the Fleet Admirals, King, Halsey and Spruance were already taken when Nimitz was launched.

Doris Miller doesn't fit any of that.

If I was in charge, I wouldn't use live people's names, but then I'm not in charge.



Nothing wrong with the name Doris Miller. However, rumour has it that the next pair of CVNs will be named after those other two war heroes of Pearl Harbor fame - Danny Walker and Rafe McCawley


I had the John C Stennis more in mind.

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Ian R

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 27
RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/29/2020 7:33:35 PM   
Mark VII


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The Navy named two ships, DD 792 and then DDG 994 after Rear Admiral Daniel J. Callaghan and destroyer USS Cassin Young (DD-793) for Captain Cassin Young. The Cassin Young is currently on display in Boston. They also named a Frigate (FF-1084) for the communications officer, Lieutenant Commander Bruce McCandless and his father Commodore Byron McCandless. Surprised that no ship was named for the San Francisco's damage control officer, Lieutenant Commander Herbert E. Schonland. Schonland's knowledge and skill pretty much saved the ship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Interesting to see the inaccuracies in the estimation of the Japanese forces involved and the avoidance of mention of the possibility of friendly fire incidents.
San Fran certainly deserves the kudos to her crew and continuation of her name, but it is difficult to single out a hero on her to name a ship after. The Admirals and Captain were killed early on so the continued fighting of the ship was handled by persons unnamed in the crew AFAIK.



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RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/29/2020 10:28:53 PM   
SuluSea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A few weeks ago, a writer sent me a note about his submission (50 words or less)
as to the most heroic naval action in American history. His nomination was the Monitor.
My immediate thought was USN destroyers in the Battle of Samar.

I've said to friends (yeah I have some) and relatives that Samar was the U.S. Navy's finest hour.

A David and Goliath type event.



< Message edited by SuluSea -- 1/29/2020 10:38:02 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: OT : CVN-81 Doris Miller - 1/30/2020 2:08:18 AM   
dr.hal


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A number of historians think that Mr. Miller would have gotten the Medal of Honor if it were not for his color (there was some resistance to even giving him the Navy Cross at the time!). The naming of a ship is as much a political statement as it is a historical one. For example every state except one has had a capitol ship named after it. Spreading that around is a political concept. Thus I think that naming a CV after Mr. Miller is a "capitol" idea! It is certainly a political choice and of course a social one. We had no "colored" leadership in the Second World War, thus finding a black person to so honor was and remains no easy task. Yet, honors such as this should be widely disseminated for social and yes even political reasons. I think it sends a very mature message to all in the USA and to anyone else who cares to listen. Mr. Miller died as a cook, one of the few positions folks of color could hold in the navy at the time. Yet on the Day of Infamy he proved to be one hell of a shot (he accounted for two Japanese aircraft as I recall) but was never allowed to cross deck into a gunner's rating. Thank goodness times have changed.

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