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Time dialation and speed of information - 1/23/2020 12:54:22 PM   
larrybush


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Can you imagine playing this or a similar game where time dilation is accurately modeled? Crew of ship 'A' gets to Alpha Centauri in just over 3 weeks (their time) but 867 years go by on Earth (their departure point). General Relativity is very hard on Science Fiction games!

Ha! I'm not even sure how a computer game could model this! Sure would be a confusing game, you reach your destination only to find Earth has already colonized it with a faster FTL scheme. It only took us weeks to get there but Earth had 867 years to advance science and technology and they were waiting for us to arrive.

The other interesting issue is the speed of information. Everything that occurs in this and other games is actionable instantly whether or not playing turn based or real time games. If an alien race attacks your far flung outpost 48 light years away, how long will it take to get that information and react? Since radio is only speed of light, 48 years to get a radio massage! Most of these games assume some form of FTL messaging (which break causality BTW).

An interesting game mechanic would be to use FTL courrier ships (or rules to simulate their use) to move information and only be able to react when information arrives. Sure would change the play dynamic of games like this - would be a much more complex game, the computer AI could not handle it I imagine.

Fifth Frontier War by Game Designers Workshop modeled this quite well.
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 1/23/2020 3:57:47 PM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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As in every game or sci-fi you will have to go into it with some pre set notion of how the universe work that does not correlate with reality... such as a universal time frame and FTL communications... otherwise things would not work.

A hard sci-fi game would not really work very well as the galaxy is really vast and time will pass different depending on the speed of an object. While time will progress very similar in different starsystems even here time would dilute more and more over time.

I don't think it would be feasible to make a game that is this accurate without bending some of the laws of physics in some way shape and form... ;)

(in reply to larrybush)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 1/23/2020 4:13:03 PM   
Siddham

 

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I dont accept the time dilation aspect of Relativity theory in a similar way that I dont accept some of the weird paradoxical speculations derived from Quantum Mechanics.
In both cases I think these are misinterpretations that arises from internal characteristics of the mathematics used to express these theories.
Therefore I am fine with those kinds of theoretical oddities being ignored in sci-fi games.

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 1/23/2020 5:46:38 PM   
larrybush


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

As in every game or sci-fi you will have to go into it with some pre set notion of how the universe work that does not correlate with reality... such as a universal time frame and FTL communications... otherwise things would not work.

A hard sci-fi game would not really work very well as the galaxy is really vast and time will pass different depending on the speed of an object. While time will progress very similar in different starsystems even here time would dilute more and more over time.

I don't think it would be feasible to make a game that is this accurate without bending some of the laws of physics in some way shape and form... ;)


I do agree that you definitely need to bend some rules or suspend your disbelief in some ways to play an enjoyable game - my musings were more of a nature of thought experiments with games vs hard science fiction/physics. My take on it is find the rules you need to break and break them as softly as possible.
Although the flow of information aspects could make for a very interesting game, given it was designed correctly. I'm just not sure an AI would be up to the task (but I'm not a programmer /scripter type).

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 1/23/2020 6:14:39 PM   
larrybush


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quote:

Therefore I am fine with those kinds of theoretical oddities being ignored in sci-fi games.


Yeah, I'm fine with them too for playing games. I tend to prefer hard science fiction because I spent 25 years as an aerospace engineer working at a launch site in California. I put some of that stuff to use on the Titan missile program. It tends to jade my preferences.

Lately I have been refreshing my physics education to see if much has changed. It has, like the rest of my education, a lot has changed. Now that I'm retired I just am trying to keep current in science and engineering. The love of my life I guess.

(in reply to Siddham)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 1/23/2020 6:21:30 PM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Siddham

I dont accept the time dilation aspect of Relativity theory in a similar way that I dont accept some of the weird paradoxical speculations derived from Quantum Mechanics.
In both cases I think these are misinterpretations that arises from internal characteristics of the mathematics used to express these theories.
Therefore I am fine with those kinds of theoretical oddities being ignored in sci-fi games.


With that you mean that satellites in space that need to be configured for time dilution due to relativity is fake and we just do it for fun... or is it something else you think it depends on? ;)

Time, space and gravity are finely connected and can be warped and stretched in different ways. This means that an FTL communication device could potentially get the answer before the question is sent from objects moving at different speeds using different vectors etc..

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 1/23/2020 6:22:41 PM >

(in reply to Siddham)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 1/24/2020 4:33:09 PM   
Canute0

 

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quote:

As in every game or sci-fi you will have to go into it with some pre set notion of how the universe work that does not correlate with reality... such as a universal time frame and FTL communications... otherwise things would not work.

Sure it will work, but not as RTS gameplay anymore.
You create a fleet, give them orders what they should do and then they either report back with a fast courier vesser and wait for new orders from that courier or fly back to the HQ.
Basicly the same like at the good old times, when sailships are on mission for years at the new world.
I got once a game with this, LONG time ago.

But while they wait for new orders from the courier, they need to sleep at cyrocaskets.




< Message edited by Canute0 -- 1/24/2020 4:38:39 PM >

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 1/24/2020 6:46:25 PM   
larrybush


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canute0

quote:

As in every game or sci-fi you will have to go into it with some pre set notion of how the universe work that does not correlate with reality... such as a universal time frame and FTL communications... otherwise things would not work.

Sure it will work, but not as RTS gameplay anymore.
You create a fleet, give them orders what they should do and then they either report back with a fast courier vesser and wait for new orders from that courier or fly back to the HQ.
Basicly the same like at the good old times, when sailships are on mission for years at the new world.
I got once a game with this, LONG time ago.

But while they wait for new orders from the courier, they need to sleep at cyrocaskets.

Yes, it's been done before on a board wargame. It was implemented differently than you suggest though. You are correct, it cannot work in a real time game. I always like the WITP/AE model, turn based planning, real time combat, that would work too.
I will do what I can to mod DW2 when it arrives, maybe I can get some flavor of this in the game.

(in reply to Canute0)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 2/1/2020 7:40:14 PM   
MatBailie


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The problem is that there is no universal concept of "now". If you read up on Simultaneity you'll find that it gets messed up really quickly. (Good starting point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrNVsfkGW-0 )

So, when you look at the galaxy view, you can't see what all the different places in the galaxy actually look like "now" because "now" isn't a valid concept it physics.

You'd have to pick a location, and see what the galaxy currently looks like from that location, given the speed of light.

You couldn't even easily change the location that you've viewing from. You couldn't switch to a different star at see what It's "now" looks like, because, again, "now" doesn't exist.

Then again, if you're going to start a conversation with both "time dilation is accurately modeled" and "FTL", you may as well make it All up any way. The very physics that model time dilation also forbid accelerating to or past the speed of light; so adding FTL means you may as well give two fingers to time dilation too.



< Message edited by MatBailie -- 2/1/2020 8:00:56 PM >

(in reply to larrybush)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 2/1/2020 7:42:05 PM   
MatBailie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Siddham

I dont accept the time dilation aspect of Relativity theory in a similar way that I dont accept some of the weird paradoxical speculations derived from Quantum Mechanics.
In both cases I think these are misinterpretations that arises from internal characteristics of the mathematics used to express these theories.
Therefore I am fine with those kinds of theoretical oddities being ignored in sci-fi games.


You might not accept it, but it has been directly observed, in Many different scenarios. Indeed, it is significant enough that it has to be embedded in the calculations for GPS to work.

It may be that we don't correctly understand the physics, much as Newton didn't understand gravity in the same was as Einstein. But Einstein's advancements took account of additional observations, it didn't some-how invalidate old observations. Similarly, any future physics will still need to explain the time dilation that Has been Directly observed, it won't be able to ignore those observations.

Time-dilation is an observation, not a theory. Relativity is the theory to explain the observations.

< Message edited by MatBailie -- 2/1/2020 7:51:16 PM >

(in reply to Siddham)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 3/30/2020 5:57:27 AM   
PoorNavigator

 

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It would be interesting. And it would certainly be an interesting coding/modelling challenge. But the conceit of FTL is that it prevents these relativistic issues.

(in reply to MatBailie)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 3/30/2020 6:51:57 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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I think they got it right. The worlds flat the universe must be or at least it is on my screen

(in reply to PoorNavigator)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 3/31/2020 7:01:14 PM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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The biggest hurdle to get over is that it is TIME that is the problem not space itself. We can predict quite ccurately when an object is going to be at a certain point in space using relativity.

The problem is that when we fold space between two points we don't know the time at the end point as time is relative and not constant. Time depend on both gravity and speed.

This is a concept that is difficult for most to understand it is a problem when using FTL or Wormholes... ;)

(in reply to Chris21wen)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 3/31/2020 9:51:39 PM   
MatBailie


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My point is the the conceit itself makes the explicit premise ("time dilation accurately modelled") redundant.

I.e. You can't have time dilation accurately modelled whilst also having the conceit(s) implied by having FTL.

(in reply to PoorNavigator)
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RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 4/7/2020 10:00:02 PM   
fuke

 

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A great reminder why DW is so cool: it has the kind of players who talk about the big questions, not just how to min-max some arbitrary cookie cutter DLC mechanics.

I must admit I still don't understand relativity or the famous train example. Spatial relativity makes sense, I get that location is a relative concept. I also get that light takes time to travel so when you see anything you are seeing a reflection of its past state. And I know time dilation has been observed in spacecraft.

But all the explanations of relativity I have seen/read seem to be confusing the observed state of an object and its present state. Perceptional relativity does not equal true relativity.

Like, say I see a star in the sky. It has gone supernova and exploded millions of years ago. But I won't see the explosion in my lifetime, to me it still looks like a healthy normal star. I think there is a true "now" objective state -- the star looks alive due to light lag, but it is dead now.

I don't see how FTL communication or travel breaks any of this. Like, I get that lightspeed travel will cause travelers to go into slow-mo relative to observers, but how does that enable communications to go back in time?

Maybe my problem is that I think too much in terms of games ... we have perceptional relativity and time dilation in games (I got sniped and according to the server my character is now dead, but I don't know that yet - on the client I'm still alive due to lag), but I haven't been able to send messages back in time in any game.

I'm sure that Einstein was right, I just don't get it yet

(in reply to MatBailie)
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