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Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/21/2020 3:02:46 PM   
ineffable


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EDIT: the commentary on victory level vis objective values below only pertains to battles with neutral objectives!

Lose a battle on mapX with 1 one-point objective due to the enemy taking all objectives and its scored a major defeat.

Win a battle on mapX with 14 one-point objectives due to the player taking all objectives and its scored a minor victory.

Win a battle on mapX with 7 two-point objectives due to the player taking all objectives and its scored a major victory.

What differentiates the objectives in these examples besides point values?

According to \Close Combat - The Bloody First\Campaigns\MAIN\DATA\CampaignParams.txt, Reputation is scored according to victory level:
AlliedRepTotalLoss -10
AxisRepTotalLoss -10
AlliedRepMajorLoss -5
AxisRepMajorLoss -5
AlliedRepMinorLoss -2
AxisRepMinorLoss -2
AlliedRepDraw -1
AxisRepDraw -1
AlliedRepMinorWin 1
AxisRepMinorWin 1
AlliedRepMajorWin 5
AxisRepMajorWin 5
AlliedRepTotalWin 10
AxisRepTotalWin 10

If taking all objectives doesnt constitute a Total Win what does?

Why is the reputation gain for a Minor Win not symmetric with a Minor Loss (1:-2) like the other victory levels (5:-5; 10:-10)?


< Message edited by ineffable -- 1/22/2020 4:24:08 AM >


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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/21/2020 4:58:31 PM   
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In this battle the enemy triggered the Two Minute Warning by taking only 1 of 4 three point objectives. Repeatable, zip of save attached.

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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/21/2020 5:39:21 PM   
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Reported before but related - as it stands now, once the Two Minute Warning is triggered it always continues to count down to 0:00. It should be that after the Warning is triggered and any objective becomes contested or taken by the other side, the Warning should expire and the game timer should resume minus the amount of time the Warning counted off.


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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/21/2020 7:38:01 PM   
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The threshold for a Major Victory seems to be ~10+ objective points dependent on the values of the objectives.

4 x 3pt objectives (12 pts) = Major Victory
6 x 2pt objectives (12 pts) = Minor Victory
3 x 3pt objectives + 1 x 2pt objective (11 pts) = Major Victory
5 x 2pt objectives + 1 x 1pt objective (11 pts) = Minor Victory
14 x 1pt objectives (14 pts) = Minor Victory
15 x 1pt objectives (15 pts) = Major Victory

Objectives can be stacked ie. given the same x,y coordinates in the scenario file. The scoring 'guidelines' above still apply.

Beginning battle with all player units from the active roster removed only results in Major Defeat, not Total.

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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/21/2020 8:54:07 PM   
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Number of Objective and values for all maps below. Unless otherwise noted the objectives on a map are all valued at 2. Nine maps have a 3pt objective. Only one map, Sbiba Ridge, uses 1pt objectives. As in classic CC its questionable as to whether VLs/Objs are valued at 1, 2 or 3 pts per the manual, or, 50, 100 or 200 per the BTD/scenario files.

Balleroy 5
Bou Chebka 8
Brecey 9
Brecey2 9
Caumont 8
Cerisy 9
Colleville 6
Djebel Berda 7x2, 1x3
Djebel Keddab Defense 5x2, 1x3
Djebel Keddab 5x2, 1x3
*El Guettar 5
Enna 8
Gangi 4
Gela 5
Gum Tree Road 6
Hill 278 5
Hill 350 4x2, 1x3
Hill 1006 6
Hill 1034 8
Kasserine Pass 8
Le Molay 8
Longstop Hill 7
Marigny 9
Mortain 9
Nicosia 7
Niscemi 6x2, 1x3
North Road 7
Omaha Beach 7
Percy 9
Percy2 9
Petralia 5
Piano Lupo 7
Sbiba Counter-Attack 7x2, 1x3
Sbiba Fallback 3x2, 1x3
Sbiba Ridge 3x2, 2x1, 1x3
The Mousetrap 7
Tine Valley 8
Trevieres 6
Troina 6x2, 1x3


< Message edited by ineffable -- 1/22/2020 3:08:12 PM >


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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/22/2020 5:03:00 AM   
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So it occurred that my test methodology might be flawed. Turns out that objective(s) starting control and opposing force size may play a factor. Previous tests all involved objectives that started as neutral. When fighting a lone enemy mortar, winning the battle by taking the sole 1pt objective, that started in enemy control, was a Decisive/Major victory. When fighting a lone enemy mortar, winning the battle by taking the sole 1pt objective, that started in my control, was a Decisive/Major victory. When fighting full enemy company, winning the battle by taking the sole 1pt objective, that started in my control, was a Minor victory.

As my GPS is so fond of saying...'recalculating'.

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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/22/2020 3:31:00 PM   
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One thing is sure, despite some outward similarities, TBF's objectives factor into battle/op/camp victory calculations quite differently than their classic CC VL counterparts. Creating top-notch scenarios is going to take a better understanding of the various influences that objectives have. Easy enough to crank scenarios out of the editor but the results can be rather hit-or-miss. A key question is what kind of 'gravitational pull' do objectives have on the AI? I see it in Deploy, and it seems apparent in AI unit movements.

Another big Q is - how does battle and operation branching based on reputation work? Can a branch option be made to happen regardless of rep status (key to a non-linear campaign)? Can the AI make decisions about branch options or does it always follow a set path? In H2H play can both players be given branch options?

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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/22/2020 8:59:38 PM   
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There are a lot of details in how the battles are scored but the primary factors are VLs taken/lost, ground taken/lost, your losses, and casualties caused.

These primary factors are weighted based on what your commander expects you to be able to accomplish in a battle. This is a rough weighting based on relative force strength and it is effected by your reputation; a higher reputation means higher expectations and vice-versa. Examples: If you're expected to attack and you fail to take much ground you will be scored lower; if you're expected to suffer a certain number of losses but you take significantly less you'll be scored higher. 'Higher' and 'lower' is typically around 10% of your actual score unless it's a total disaster like an attack where you lose ground / VLs (which can be up to a 20% penalty.)

The victory level (draw, minor, major, decisive) is determined by the ratio of the scores for both sides. If Allies score is twice Axis score it will be a major victory, for example. If you take the whole map in some manner (capture VLs, destroy enemy, rout enemy) you will at least score a minor victory.

Specific question:

Minor defeats are slightly more disappointing to your commander (and thus your reputation) than minor wins. :)

There are a number of conditions you can set for branching operations or battles that will be detailed in the content creation update.

The AI always takes the first choice / default path. The TBF campaign was designed to be played as the Allies and all the choices are on the Allied side. If you have the AI play Allies it will always take the first / historical choice.

You can have only one condition for a battle/operation so only one side can have a branching condition / choice at any given time.












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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/22/2020 10:02:22 PM   
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Good info. The bit about higher rep = higher expectations is natural and brilliant. Hadnt considered ground gained/lost even though its right there in the Debrief. Assume this is counted in Deploy tiles and neutral tiles are worth as much as enemy-controlled tiles. Your last line is most encouraging as it indicates the Axis can have the branch option after a battle but still unclear if options are confined to one side or the other for the whole campaign. The TBF victory calculation is way beyond classic CC's simplistic VL value count.

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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/23/2020 2:10:02 PM   
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I will need to make some tweaks to allow Axis and Allied conditional choices in the same campaign/op -- they're only designed for camps/ops that are meant to be played from one side or the other single player. Will add this to the task list and should be able to do it for the content update.

Yes, ground control score is based on the net count of deploy squares you gained / lost. It doesn't matter if they were enemy controlled or neutral.

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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/23/2020 5:08:23 PM   
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Im in the process of reverse engineering the Gum Tree Road & Mousetrap branch options since they dont appear to be based reputation. A bit puzzled by both Djebel Keddab and Djebel Keddab Defense being listed as the Gum Tree Rd 'retreat to' scenarios. The Allies advance from DK to either GTR or DKD but retreat from GTR to either DK or DKD. My working theory is that retreat is along the same path as advancement so DK is really the only retreat choice in the GTR scenario file.

Afterwards I want to investigate creating an alternate retreat path using the same 'retreat to' map but with a reversed deployment, US defending, Axis attacking. The general idea being to give the Axis something resembling a classic CC-style entry zone for maps the US retreats to.

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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/23/2020 8:41:48 PM   
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Once we have the core modding update out and beaten into shape we can certainly look at adding a scripting hook for some custom logic in these areas, assuming that it makes sense to do so.

Cheers

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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/23/2020 10:10:45 PM   
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Adding a 'retreat track' of maps to existing ops looks to require only that each stock scenario be edited to point back to the retreat version of the previous map. Add a branch option to each map (not shown) and the possible paths thru the op increase exponentially.



quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine
...we can certainly look at adding a scripting hook for some custom logic in these areas...

Am eager to see what havoc can be raised with user scripting.



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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/24/2020 1:50:46 PM   
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If every battle leads to another battle when the US wins (blue arrows) or the US loses (red arrows) there could be this kind of convoluted path thru the Op. This is assuming the opfile.txt does not require its constituent scenarios be in used sequential order. And we still havent added branch option arrows from each battle!




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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/24/2020 2:51:31 PM   
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Debrief after taking the only (neutral) objective on the map and accepting an AI truce that had been on offer for a couple of minutes.




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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/24/2020 4:27:28 PM   
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Should be a minor victory if you captured all VLs on the map. Could be an issue with neither side starting with a VL, which was not part of the scenarios in the stock game. I will look at that but the system is not really designed around odd cases like this.

Score-wise, 'Stalemate' means your score was < 1.5x and > 0.66x the enemy score. It looks like they captured slightly more ground than you did to partially offset the VL and casualties were not significant. If the Axis were significantly weaker than you (sounds like they were if they offered a cease fire) they got the bonus for doing better than expected while you were penalized for not destroying the enemy.



< Message edited by Steve McClaire -- 1/24/2020 4:30:01 PM >

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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/24/2020 6:49:23 PM   
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I was expecting a minor victory and complete control of the map since I took the only objective. The 'All Objectives Taken' option was checked and this was a single battle.

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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/24/2020 7:14:41 PM   
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Below is the Debrief for a different 1 neutral VL scenario. This was the expected outcome. The key difference between outcomes seems to be that the one above ended by Truce while the one below ended by timer expiration (2 min warn). I dont think Truce accommodates the player holding all objectives. In the first scenario I was surprised the AI offered a Truce so early and for no discernible reason. The AI was on Recruit with a full Main Force, but no support. Then I was expecting the Truce to be withdrawn when my units were spotted closing in on the objective.




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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/24/2020 8:52:16 PM   
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Actually, achieving only a Stalemate for accepting a Truce rather than fighting to hold that lone objective for 2 minutes isnt a bad stupidity penalty. But I still should have won control of the entire map for controlling all objectives.

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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/25/2020 9:27:21 PM   
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This modified El Guettar op works with a couple of small caveats and one big plus. The Next Friendly/Enemy map text follows the sequence in the opname.txt file. Not problem if this text variable could be made to read from the 'retreat/advance' to battles in the scenario file rather than sub-scenario list in the op file. The friendly/enemy control indicators on the map icons shown on the op overview map follow suite in this regard. No easy fix for this comes to mind.

The plus is that instead of a standard ~25/25/50 deployment split on 'retreat to' maps, if the 'retreat to' points to a new map in the op, the custom deployment in that map's scenario file is used.

The branch option (in white) advancing from Djebel K is the stock Gum Tree/Djebel K Defense choice with a small modification so Djebel Keddab Defense 'bar' is shown on the Command Screen overview. Bit of a conflict in that both these 'bars' and the map icons on the op overview use the same pixel coords. A bit of fudging with these will keep the 'bars' and map icons separated.

Next, need to see if additional branch options can be added to an op in the Text1.txt file but Im optimistic they can. The goal is to create ahistoric custom campaigns with tens of ops each containing large numbers of scenarios/maps so that it'll be rare to follow the same path thru an op, much less a campaign.




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< Message edited by ineffable -- 1/25/2020 9:32:24 PM >


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RE: Objectives, values, levels of victory & rep - 1/26/2020 2:59:00 AM   
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Was able to add another branch option advancing from Djebel Berda to either Djebel Keddab or Loop Hill. TBF's campaign wasn't truly linear before. Now, with alternate 'retreat to' maps and branching at every map, it's positively 3 directional.




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