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Dec7 PH DaBabes

 
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Dec7 PH DaBabes - 1/19/2020 8:09:55 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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I am doing some 1st turn test runs against the AI-DaBabesLightB light. Something that I have noticed, consistently from years of playing (including 2 PBEMs, one as Japan, one as Allies) is how hard it is to replicate the results of PH attack; meaning 2 BBs sunk, 6 severely damaged. I haven't played vanilla in years, as I am a big fan of Da-Babes, but I remember it was somehow easier to get good results, sometimes even sinking 4 or 5 BBs

With DaBabes non historical 1st turn, my standard result is 0 ships sunk, 8 damaged on various degrees; a few seriously damaged, a few almost intact, the rest in between. This was also the results on the 2 PBEM games.
With very good luck (an early magazine explosion) I can then get 1 or 2 BBs sunk
This at the cost of 10 to 20 planes

With historical turn I get much higher loses, as Zeros will strafe and get eaten by flak

My question is, are these results of few BB sunk consistent to what you have experienced?
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RE: Dec7 PH DaBabes - 1/19/2020 8:27:32 PM   
inqistor


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But do you have better results with Historical Turn? According to my tests, there is some weird modifier for Historical Turn, and even with the same settings, you destroy more planes on airfields.

What are your setting for strike planes on PH attack? Are orders for PH units changed before first turn?

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RE: Dec7 PH DaBabes - 1/19/2020 9:25:15 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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I haven't played historical turn in a long time, as I like to make some minor changes to TF compositions and landings

In my experience, historical yield better results consistently, but at the cost of tremendous pilot loses

So even without historical turn, I always keep PH strike "as is", so no splitting the carriers to attack Singapore or Manila (or San Francisco ).
Main difference from historical would be fighter altitude; I keep the Zeros at 10K altitude, some escorting, some striking airbases. I like to avoid strafing attacks; loses are simply too high for too little
Instead of strafing I have some on escort, some on airfield attack
Vals are at 10K, split between port and airfield. All Kates at 10K doing torpedo port strikes. Altitude is only relevant for those that takes bombs, and I have tested Kates at 5K results are relatively the same (maybe a little better but at the cost of more casualties)





< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 1/19/2020 9:26:15 PM >

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RE: Dec7 PH DaBabes - 1/19/2020 9:29:36 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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I also wanted to check the "cost" of a Dec8th start...

here the results, in pilots (I care a lot less about planes lost)




In a Dec8 start, the USN loses 2 BBs and the other 6 start high to severely damaged... this at the cost of 29 pilots:
9F, 15DB, 5TB. Fighter and Dive Bombers pilots are relatively easy to replace, while Torpedo bombers are not.. Maybe it won't be a bad idea to play Dec8 for an historical constrained game


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< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 1/19/2020 9:34:38 PM >

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RE: Dec7 PH DaBabes - 1/20/2020 1:42:52 AM   
spence

 

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It seems to me that the IJN only lost 29 planes shot down but had something like 77 damaged many of which were written off as a total loss after they returned to their carriers. Starting the game with 2 BBs sunk and the other six damaged to some sort of significant amount for the loss of only 29 planes total is not that bad of a deal.

Bit in my games against the AI as Allied the number of ships damaged/sunk (even in Babes Lite) seems to be roughly 3 times the number historically sunk/damaged (50+ versus 18 IRL). The number of planes shot down seems to be low compared to the 29 shot down IRL. The damaged ships generally don't have really heavy damage and the sunken BBs have ranged from 0-4 so no matter what one does perhaps it's just a crap shoot.

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RE: Dec7 PH DaBabes - 1/20/2020 2:57:38 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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I did lots of non historical PH strike tests yesterday afternoon. The key driver for "sinking BBs" is, obviously, how many Kates decide to fly, but this is totally random on a non historical start; lowest I got was 70something, best was close to the maximum (144 planes)

If you get the lowest end, you won't sink anything, unless you are lucky and get a rare magazine explosion. Best result was 4 BB sunk, with damage to the other 4. This was the only one (of at least 10 starts) were I got more than one BB sunk. A typical result was 0 BB sunk, with damage spreaded across all

Interesting to notice that in that turn, the one in which I sank 4 BBs), everything was "bloody".. the entire turn was a slugfest, with severe casualties to the Allies, but also to Japan... I would speculate that there might be some form of "turn multiplier" that random gets things more/ or less aggressive. Maybe this is set to maximum when historical turn is ON (and goes random if not).

I also found that by splitting the KB in two TFs (both attacking PH), I would almost always guarantee a 2nd strike on the PM turn, so that if you got few Kates flying morning, you might get them flying in the afternoon (but with bombs)

So overall, unless I want to do something ahistorical like parking carriers near Manila or Singapore, I prefer to start the game on Dec8


< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 1/20/2020 3:29:26 PM >

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RE: Dec7 PH DaBabes - 1/20/2020 3:23:51 PM   
RangerJoe


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Try only 54 Kates flying on the Pearl Harbor strike. No torpedoes at all.

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RE: Dec7 PH DaBabes - 1/20/2020 5:05:18 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I am doing some 1st turn test runs against the AI-DaBabesLightB light. Something that I have noticed, consistently from years of playing (including 2 PBEMs, one as Japan, one as Allies) is how hard it is to replicate the results of PH attack; meaning 2 BBs sunk, 6 severely damaged. I haven't played vanilla in years, as I am a big fan of Da-Babes, but I remember it was somehow easier to get good results, sometimes even sinking 4 or 5 BBs

With DaBabes non historical 1st turn, my standard result is 0 ships sunk, 8 damaged on various degrees; a few seriously damaged, a few almost intact, the rest in between. This was also the results on the 2 PBEM games.
With very good luck (an early magazine explosion) I can then get 1 or 2 BBs sunk
This at the cost of 10 to 20 planes

With historical turn I get much higher loses, as Zeros will strafe and get eaten by flak

My question is, are these results of few BB sunk consistent to what you have experienced?



Babes has reduced bomb and torpedo damage by 50% which makes it so hard to sink ships in a big port, not to talk about a port with a working repair shipyard

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RE: Dec7 PH DaBabes - 1/20/2020 5:12:42 PM   
rockmedic109

 

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I did not know that babes reduces damage on bombs and torps. Damage does not seem unreasonable.

My current game {Babes} had a strike where one BB was sunk outright and two more were lost to fire before they could avail themselves of the dockyard and dock workers. I remember the original WITP had a doubled chance of magazine explosion. More damage was caused by the 800kg Kates than the torpedoes.

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RE: Dec7 PH DaBabes - 1/20/2020 7:21:24 PM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I did lots of non historical PH strike tests yesterday afternoon. The key driver for "sinking BBs" is, obviously, how many Kates decide to fly, but this is totally random on a non historical start; lowest I got was 70something, best was close to the maximum (144 planes)

Oh, I recall I've seen something similar. Have you set KB planes to Port Attack Primary, or Naval/Port secondary? Most planes seems to always strike when they have only primary attack mission.

Since this is Unofficial Scenario, you can change starting orders in editor, and run historical turn. I haven't checked how it is made in Babes, but stock have some historical strikes, which won't work under current game engine. Like some air groups set to night strike, or NELLs bombing Manila from over 20k altitude.

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RE: Dec7 PH DaBabes - 1/20/2020 7:42:39 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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Port primary, I think it would be a big mistake, to set any KB squadron on naval+secondary because it would then miss the AM phase, when all the bonuses are in place

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 1/20/2020 7:43:21 PM >

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